American University Shootout!
- Thread starter Nanor
- Start date
Pestcontrol
In Cryo Sleep
Very sad indeed.
I hope this helps politicians realise the right to bear arms is not a good thing.
I hope this helps politicians realise the right to bear arms is not a good thing.
Wraith
Active Member
Unfortunately, I think the majority of the American population want to keep the right to bear arms, and the politicians are therefore unlikely to try to abolish it until that changes.
Even if they do, they'll have to try and beat the argument of "if you ban them then the criminals will be armed and we the law abiding citizens will be unable to defend our homes and families"
Sadly I don't think even a tragedy like this will make much of a difference.
Even if they do, they'll have to try and beat the argument of "if you ban them then the criminals will be armed and we the law abiding citizens will be unable to defend our homes and families"
Sadly I don't think even a tragedy like this will make much of a difference.
I fail to see how that's relevant. We've had school shootings here in Canada, and we certainly don't have that right.
Tetsuo_Shima
In Cryo Sleep
Is it easy to smuggle weapons across from America into Canada undetected? Border enforcers etc. etc.? I thought it was a lot harder to purchase firearms in the USA now, anyway.
In any case, I fail to see how the legality to bear arms is irrelevant. Surely, when firearms are so easily accessible, you can expect a (relatively) high number of fatalities surrounding their use? There is always going to be gun-crime, even in countries who ban firearms, the only difference being that, in the banned countries, only criminals will be using them. I'm guessing a blanket ban will at least help to eliminate the threat from psychopaths (for want of a better phrase), or revenge attacks stemming from crimes of passion; perhaps not in the short-term, but eventually it will come into fruition.
All debating aside, yes this is tragic. Heard it on the radio home from work today, makes you wonder about the motivation of some people.
Wraith
Active Member
Not necessarily. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Switzerland has one of the lowest levels of accidental injuries / fatalities and yet a fairly high level of gun ownership. This is because the people who own them (and their families) are taught how to treat them - as lethal weapons. As such, they are treated with respect and are carefully controlled.
Compare this to America, where all you have to do to legally get a gun (as far as I know) is to fill in a form, wait a few days and then return to the store to collect it. There's also very little control of storage. As long as it's not kept loaded and hidden during transport (i.e. in the glove compartment of your car), you can pretty much store it wherever. Many accidents are supposedly from kids finding loaded guns in parent bedside drawers and deciding to play with them.
It's thirty people. Okay so it's a madman's work, but think about the killings in the rest of the world (for example Tibet, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine/Israel, Colombia, etc etc) for a few seconds.
I don't know where I'm headed with this train of thought but it aggravates me that everyone (me included!) suddenly gets so upset when a very small number of people gets killed, just because it's in a western country. This when we probably couldn't care less about all the other violent deaths occuring elsewhere.
(again, I'm not saying I'm not upset about this tragedy, I just think I should be either a) more upset about all the other tragedies or b) less upset about this one)
I don't know where I'm headed with this train of thought but it aggravates me that everyone (me included!) suddenly gets so upset when a very small number of people gets killed, just because it's in a western country. This when we probably couldn't care less about all the other violent deaths occuring elsewhere.
(again, I'm not saying I'm not upset about this tragedy, I just think I should be either a) more upset about all the other tragedies or b) less upset about this one)
Pestcontrol
In Cryo Sleep
Good call moving the thread.
Big_D, there have been school shootings in europe too. I'm not saying banning guns will ban school shootings, but it will certainly make it harder for people acting on impulse to do much damage. Also guns cannot be banned but merely made harder to obtain, but that too is a good thing.
Didn't Canada have quite a large number of guns also? I recall that from Bowling for Columbine.
Docbot, we're upset because of the horrific deed and the place it happened in. As Bush pointed out in his speech schools are supposed to be places of peace and sanctuary. That was brutally violated. I do agree with you up to a certain point that the attention this recieves does not to justice to all the other killing and wrongs in the world.
Big_D, there have been school shootings in europe too. I'm not saying banning guns will ban school shootings, but it will certainly make it harder for people acting on impulse to do much damage. Also guns cannot be banned but merely made harder to obtain, but that too is a good thing.
Didn't Canada have quite a large number of guns also? I recall that from Bowling for Columbine.
Docbot, we're upset because of the horrific deed and the place it happened in. As Bush pointed out in his speech schools are supposed to be places of peace and sanctuary. That was brutally violated. I do agree with you up to a certain point that the attention this recieves does not to justice to all the other killing and wrongs in the world.
People will still be able to get a hold of guns, though. And even if guns disappear entirely, history shows they will just find something else (the deteriorating list of things you can take on an airplane proves this...)
I'm not saying stricter gun control won't help, but it certainly won't help as much as proper disipline taking place at school. How many of these shootings have taken place because a student was bullyed over the edge?
Do something about the bullys, and you've prevented deaths.
Do something about guns, and you've prevented shootings. But now you've got to deal with all the stabbings...
I'm not saying stricter gun control won't help, but it certainly won't help as much as proper disipline taking place at school. How many of these shootings have taken place because a student was bullyed over the edge?
Do something about the bullys, and you've prevented deaths.
Do something about guns, and you've prevented shootings. But now you've got to deal with all the stabbings...
You see, a funny thing is, the mentality that it's okay to bear arms (be it guns or knives or what have you) is one of the main reasons for these killings, I think. In countries I know of that have strict gun laws, there is also a distinct lack of knife killings (incidentally, those countries have strict knife laws as well)... of course it happens, but in schools it's VERY rare.
KillCrazy
Active Member
Some info about the gunman.
Seems he was well known at the University to be depressed. The article talks about disturbing writings that he produced, with comments saying they were "like something out of a nightmare". Obviously the guy wasn't right in the head up to the shootings.
I wonder how much less damage he would have done if guns weren't easily accessible to him. Maybe all those students would be alive today, and even the boy himself. He'd be taken away of course, but to get help.
There were signs of his mental instability, according to what I've read, well before the shootings. Did he get the proper help? Could this whole thing have been prevented? I think so.
Seems he was well known at the University to be depressed. The article talks about disturbing writings that he produced, with comments saying they were "like something out of a nightmare". Obviously the guy wasn't right in the head up to the shootings.
I wonder how much less damage he would have done if guns weren't easily accessible to him. Maybe all those students would be alive today, and even the boy himself. He'd be taken away of course, but to get help.
There were signs of his mental instability, according to what I've read, well before the shootings. Did he get the proper help? Could this whole thing have been prevented? I think so.
Pestcontrol
In Cryo Sleep
It could have been prevented too if the police didn't go after the wrong suspect after the dormatory shooting.
I agree with Big_D that gun control isn't the only thing that should be done. There is clerely a whole chain of failures that led up to this event.
I agree with Big_D that gun control isn't the only thing that should be done. There is clerely a whole chain of failures that led up to this event.
Taffy
New Member
Gun crime. Such a challenging subject.
Britain has very strict gun laws (air guns and gun replicas are soon to come under firearms laws), but we still have gun crime. According to Home Office statistics, in 2006 there were 50 homicides using a gun, and 5001 injuries involving firearms in England & Wales. According to the Scottish Executive, there were 189 injuries involving firearms and 8 homicides in 2006.
Banning guns doesn't stop gun crime. You think that the gangs doing the shooting all carry licensed firearms? NO.
We need to crack down on the smuggling of illegal firearms between countries. By getting rid of smuggled firearms, you reduce the number of guns on the street by a fair amount, I would imagine.
Gun crime is always going to exist. That's a fact. The duty of the police and the politicians is to reduce the number of people hurt by it as much as possible.
Weapons are dangerous things, yet some people regard handguns as a toy. I know people who carry knives and guns around everywhere. It's scary, frankly, and it's one of the major flaws in our education system. I find it disgusting that in Citizenship we learn about how great the EU is, and how important the Commonwealth is, but we don't learn about how dangerous weapons are, or how bad unprotected sex is.
But I agree with DocBot most of all. We shouldn't forget all the people dying in conflict zones across the world, no matter what side they are on. It's a shame that humans have an urge to compete with each other up to the point where they must kill to win. However, it's human nature, and it's something that we all have to deal with.
Britain has very strict gun laws (air guns and gun replicas are soon to come under firearms laws), but we still have gun crime. According to Home Office statistics, in 2006 there were 50 homicides using a gun, and 5001 injuries involving firearms in England & Wales. According to the Scottish Executive, there were 189 injuries involving firearms and 8 homicides in 2006.
Banning guns doesn't stop gun crime. You think that the gangs doing the shooting all carry licensed firearms? NO.
We need to crack down on the smuggling of illegal firearms between countries. By getting rid of smuggled firearms, you reduce the number of guns on the street by a fair amount, I would imagine.
Gun crime is always going to exist. That's a fact. The duty of the police and the politicians is to reduce the number of people hurt by it as much as possible.
Weapons are dangerous things, yet some people regard handguns as a toy. I know people who carry knives and guns around everywhere. It's scary, frankly, and it's one of the major flaws in our education system. I find it disgusting that in Citizenship we learn about how great the EU is, and how important the Commonwealth is, but we don't learn about how dangerous weapons are, or how bad unprotected sex is.
But I agree with DocBot most of all. We shouldn't forget all the people dying in conflict zones across the world, no matter what side they are on. It's a shame that humans have an urge to compete with each other up to the point where they must kill to win. However, it's human nature, and it's something that we all have to deal with.
Cookalarcha
Member
OMG
wots wrong with Americans!? Always school shootings and stuff they need to sort this crazy s**t out over there. I feel for those victims families though, such a shame there's selfish crazy people over there. But most Americans can be ok thank GOD!
wots wrong with Americans!? Always school shootings and stuff they need to sort this crazy s**t out over there. I feel for those victims families though, such a shame there's selfish crazy people over there. But most Americans can be ok thank GOD!
Less, surely; but there still would've been deaths.
But, here's the kicker, we never would've heard about it. There was a rash of stabbings and various other incidents (beatings with lead pipes, hammers, etc.) in highschools around here last year. Here I am only half a year later, and I'm having a hell of a time even finding a reference to any of the incidents.
Violence in schools is an issue. Gun control isn't going to change that.
Tetsuo_Shima
In Cryo Sleep
I disagree. It's easy to speculate after the event has taken place, "Oh, his morbid plays bore the hallmarks of a suspected mass-murderer. Why wasn't this prevented?", but the fact is, there are millions of teenagers in angst around the world writing songs and stories about death and destruction. I think it would be very harsh (in the majority of cases, obviously not this one. The gift of hindsight is valuable indeed) to lock people down for expressing disturbed views.
The ease of access to firearms really does pose some very hard questions, as does the fact that authorities failed to act quickly and efficiently enough to the initial murders.
KillCrazy
Active Member
I understand your point here, Tetsuo. Although I did say it could have been prevented, not it should have. Of course, not all people with mental instability can be targeted and locked down before they cause damage such as this, and I totally agree that it wouldn't be right to revoke a person's freedom because they expressed views that were seen to be violent and disturbed.
However, it's the fact that he had mental care in the past that is the reason why I said this could have been prevented. I can't make a comment on whether the help he got was good or bad, as I don't know what treatment he received, but there were a lot of signs before this happened.
Oh yeah, and speaking of taking action against people who display signs of being disturbed, I read on liveleak.com that a student was arrested for mentioning that he sympathised with the gunman. I have no idea if this is true or not, but here is the article I read.
However, it's the fact that he had mental care in the past that is the reason why I said this could have been prevented. I can't make a comment on whether the help he got was good or bad, as I don't know what treatment he received, but there were a lot of signs before this happened.
Oh yeah, and speaking of taking action against people who display signs of being disturbed, I read on liveleak.com that a student was arrested for mentioning that he sympathised with the gunman. I have no idea if this is true or not, but here is the article I read.
gringotsgoblin
In Cryo Sleep
On the same day this happened, 200 people were killed in bomb attacks around Iraq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6567329.stm). 6times more people died, yet no one thinks to post a message up here saying how tragic that is. The newspapers aren't covering the story the next day. There is no analysis of the bombers, their mentality, whether they watched Oldboy before blowing up hundreds of people. Life goes on.
Can you imagine if 200 people died in London? The country came to a standstill for the July 7 attacks when 'only' 52 people died.
All human lives are equal. Some are just more equal than others.
gringots