An interesting e-mail
- Thread starter Taffy
- Start date
To pull one line out of that:
That, for me, is the key point. The rest is ranting and actually contains some problems, in my opinion.
That line espouses pluralism (link to reference.com) and that, I feel, to be crucial central principle that should be upheld in all areas.
However:
Sure. Not to belittle those "struggles, trials and victories", for I am sure they were hard won and many were well fought, but it is reasonable to expect and accept that other cultures will impact one's own culture and that the meeting of those cultures is a good thing but will come with its fair share of clashes -- more struggles, trials and victories -- that are the base part of any sharing of culture or civilisation.
Unfortunately, the original email reads to me as though the author is not prepared to accept any changes to his culture despite the vital meeting of and collaboration between different cultures, almost as if the author's culture shouldn't be "muddied" (my word) with these external cultures. That, if true, would be a real shame. Cultures evolve over time, inevitably, and this is a good thing. They evolve internally as the people within come to different or new realisations, and they evolve due to external influences, be they technological or due to meeting with other cultures. To deny oneself the opportunity to change seems somewhat foolish, to me, for change is inevitable.
Perhaps I'm reading the author's thoughts incorrectly but that email does not embody the spirit of pluralism as I see it, simply seems to pay it lip service.
That, for me, is the key point. The rest is ranting and actually contains some problems, in my opinion.
That line espouses pluralism (link to reference.com) and that, I feel, to be crucial central principle that should be upheld in all areas.
However:
Sure. Not to belittle those "struggles, trials and victories", for I am sure they were hard won and many were well fought, but it is reasonable to expect and accept that other cultures will impact one's own culture and that the meeting of those cultures is a good thing but will come with its fair share of clashes -- more struggles, trials and victories -- that are the base part of any sharing of culture or civilisation.
Unfortunately, the original email reads to me as though the author is not prepared to accept any changes to his culture despite the vital meeting of and collaboration between different cultures, almost as if the author's culture shouldn't be "muddied" (my word) with these external cultures. That, if true, would be a real shame. Cultures evolve over time, inevitably, and this is a good thing. They evolve internally as the people within come to different or new realisations, and they evolve due to external influences, be they technological or due to meeting with other cultures. To deny oneself the opportunity to change seems somewhat foolish, to me, for change is inevitable.
Perhaps I'm reading the author's thoughts incorrectly but that email does not embody the spirit of pluralism as I see it, simply seems to pay it lip service.
C
Colrob
Guest
If someone who follows british culture went to certain middle eastern countries and told them that they had to adapt and not the individual, I think they would be beheaded, so why are we afraid to even tell people destroying our culture that they are wrong and it's their choice to be here?
I don't think it's racist in the slightest because a person of any colour/origin can be of the same culture. I'm sure the message can be applied to white people too etc. About time someone said it
I don't think it's racist in the slightest because a person of any colour/origin can be of the same culture. I'm sure the message can be applied to white people too etc. About time someone said it
Disclaimer: If you would be offended by a slight bashing of Mr. Howard (and "religious" politicians), just skip the spoiler and read the summation at the end.
Hm? I never knew Au. to be that theistic - I get a more secular vibe from it... and I'd say religion should not have anything to do with how a country is run (although, for populistic purposes, sometimes it's smart to namedrop G-man now and then. Well, not in Sweden, but I guess in a lot of other countries). Just look at where the education is headed in the states.
The rest of it seems to be the standard populistic crap that every politician who panders to the [immigration-unfriendly, cba to find a proper translation] spews out.
The issue is so much bigger than this, and can be debated for a long time, but I generally find that the more anyone bothers to find out about how things actually stand, and why they stand as they do, they tend to move away from this position. That a PM should take it tells more about the level of education of the voters he is trying to please than anything else.
Regarding multiculturalism, it's about the same. I agree with what Ronin said, but I'd probably put it in angrier terms. So people are afraid of "losing their culture"? How did they think they got it in the first place?
Although this is old news (I believe from 2006?) it's actually good you posted it now, since we've seen parts of what it's done. It gives the extremists on both side of the fence (I'm talking isolationists, both national and immigrant) a reason to fight it out in the open. And there has been riots and shit like you wouldn't believe in Au. People are afraid of immigrants to a much bigger extend than before. Etc, etc.
There's too much to be said about this to fit in a single reply, and I don't like holding the discussion in a written forum.
Finally, I agree that immigrants should try to adapt to the country that they emigrate to. But most of them do. The ones that don't, won't be persuaded by anything like this - they will probably just isolate even more.
Yes it's a volatile topic. I am being careful, here.
The rest of it seems to be the standard populistic crap that every politician who panders to the [immigration-unfriendly, cba to find a proper translation] spews out.
The issue is so much bigger than this, and can be debated for a long time, but I generally find that the more anyone bothers to find out about how things actually stand, and why they stand as they do, they tend to move away from this position. That a PM should take it tells more about the level of education of the voters he is trying to please than anything else.
Regarding multiculturalism, it's about the same. I agree with what Ronin said, but I'd probably put it in angrier terms. So people are afraid of "losing their culture"? How did they think they got it in the first place?
Although this is old news (I believe from 2006?) it's actually good you posted it now, since we've seen parts of what it's done. It gives the extremists on both side of the fence (I'm talking isolationists, both national and immigrant) a reason to fight it out in the open. And there has been riots and shit like you wouldn't believe in Au. People are afraid of immigrants to a much bigger extend than before. Etc, etc.
There's too much to be said about this to fit in a single reply, and I don't like holding the discussion in a written forum.
Finally, I agree that immigrants should try to adapt to the country that they emigrate to. But most of them do. The ones that don't, won't be persuaded by anything like this - they will probably just isolate even more.
Yes it's a volatile topic. I am being careful, here.
Summation: It's populistic, harmful, and he knows it.
Taffy
New Member
I'm all for immigration. In Britain at the moment, we need specialist doctors: encourage them to come and live here. Immigration, when it is controlled, can do wonders for an economy. Had we not encouraged people from the Empire to immigrate here during the final years of Imperialism, we wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as we are now.
What I have a problem with is the apparent 'open-borderism' (rubbish suffix but there we are) that Britain is experiencing at the moment. Gordon Brown may say immigration is good, but I disagree. Do you know how much, on average, Eastern Europeans contribute to the British economy? I believe it is about 80p a day. Weigh that up against the strain they are putting on public services, and I'd say it's about time we deported them, regardless of 'EU Law'. If we don't, and we continue to allow immigration at this unsustainable rate, we could be in a lot of trouble in say 20-40 years time.
What I have a problem with is the apparent 'open-borderism' (rubbish suffix but there we are) that Britain is experiencing at the moment. Gordon Brown may say immigration is good, but I disagree. Do you know how much, on average, Eastern Europeans contribute to the British economy? I believe it is about 80p a day. Weigh that up against the strain they are putting on public services, and I'd say it's about time we deported them, regardless of 'EU Law'. If we don't, and we continue to allow immigration at this unsustainable rate, we could be in a lot of trouble in say 20-40 years time.
PsiSoldier
Well-Known Member
Allow skilled people in, keep the sponges out!
Nanor
Well-Known Member
I agree with these points. I get annoyed when I hear of a country changing their policies for immigrants. Now I don't mean that they should be forced to totally change, but must learn that they are in a foreign country as guests. It's like going into someones house and demanding they change the wallpaper.
Actually, come to think of it, I've never actually heard of any immigrants complaining about the flag of a country or of Chistmas etc.?
Actually, come to think of it, I've never actually heard of any immigrants complaining about the flag of a country or of Chistmas etc.?
waterproofbob
Junior Administrator
He raises some very good points and does so fairly passionately. I completely agree that if someone comes into a country they should make an effort to live to the best of their abilities and make a concerted effort to integrate into the culture and learn the language. If I went to live abroad I would do the same, so I don't think it is a lot to ask.
The interesting thing is people who complain about the sponges and those who come in from abroad and live off the state. Yet there are tens of thousands of people in the UK doing exactly that.
The one thing I found while in Aus which is something that is seriously missing in large areas of England is a passionate nationalist pride. It is that pride that results in documents such as this however short sighted they may seem. It does boast a lakc of ability to change and that is a big problem. But I'd like to see Gordon Brown talk as passionately if considerably more sensibly.
As DocBot says it's a much deeper problem than it seems on the surface. Each aspect has been debated in great length for years and will in some form or other continue to be debated indefinitely. These cultural changes are inevitable and are a consequence of the way we live.
The interesting thing is people who complain about the sponges and those who come in from abroad and live off the state. Yet there are tens of thousands of people in the UK doing exactly that.
The one thing I found while in Aus which is something that is seriously missing in large areas of England is a passionate nationalist pride. It is that pride that results in documents such as this however short sighted they may seem. It does boast a lakc of ability to change and that is a big problem. But I'd like to see Gordon Brown talk as passionately if considerably more sensibly.
As DocBot says it's a much deeper problem than it seems on the surface. Each aspect has been debated in great length for years and will in some form or other continue to be debated indefinitely. These cultural changes are inevitable and are a consequence of the way we live.
Taffy
New Member
Thats one of the main reasons people are uninterested in politics in Britain now. I'ts bland, boring and dusty. Where's the flair, the passion, the backbone? We need someone with strong beliefs, and the will to fight them through regardless of what other politicians think of him.
*Throws up at the thought of what he is about to say* In that respect, I much prefer Old Labour to New Labour. Their policies were hideous and bad for the country, but at least they stuck to their beliefs. Unlike Blair, Brown, Cameron and the rest of them.
*Throws up at the thought of what he is about to say* In that respect, I much prefer Old Labour to New Labour. Their policies were hideous and bad for the country, but at least they stuck to their beliefs. Unlike Blair, Brown, Cameron and the rest of them.