Cataclysm stat changes

Zooggy

Junior Administrator
Staff member
Ahey, :)

I believe they announce that no changes would be made to the talent trees, although I suppose that could change...

Cheers,
J.
 

Marqo

In Cryo Sleep
I believe it was said at BlizzCon that all talent trees would be reworked to remove the "boring" talents...
 

thatbloke

Junior Administrator
Zoog, the 4th post in that link confirms that all talent trees are getting a major redesign...

I know for a fact that Warlocks are getting a MASSIVE overhaul, probably bigger than any other class, due to the way they are changing the soul shard mechanic
 

Zooggy

Junior Administrator
Staff member
Ahey, :)

Ah, I see. Fair enough, then, my bad interpretation. I do believe they won't increase the number of talent ranks...

Cheers,
J.
 

Burrick

Member
Why oh why oh why do they feel the need to change everything around AGAIN! ... just as people are getting used to playing the class and knowing what everything does they go and fuck it all up, meaning we have to re-learn what we knew... ok for people who aint got fuck all else to do apart from read up on all this, but a bit harder for others. But hey i guess we gotta make the game a bit easier for all the retards and 5 year olds out there im sure blizz aint cashed in on those fuckers yet... Rawr!
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Pretty much the most disappointing set of blue posts I've seen. Remove anything complicated which requires theorycrafting, brilliant idea.
 

thatbloke

Junior Administrator
I like the idea of removing theorycrafting as much as possible though, as doing such a thing takes all the fun out of teh game for me.

Burrick's argument I have heard when both expansions were released and tbh I think the argument is moot. By the time the expansions lands you will be moaning that the game is too samey and that we need some new content.

In terms of removing complicated stuff from the game, the stats that are being removed are completely pointless when the same effects can be granted via a combination of class talents/skills and effect granted to the other stats.

If anything, this will make things more unpredictable as Blizz will (I suspect) head down the route of giving weapons and other items random procs to try and stop the whole "this items gives me a bigger number on my spreadsheet than this item so it must be an upgrade" attitude that permeates WoW atm - such an attitude fucks me right off and is not, in my opinion, in the spirit of the game. If you need something other than your own eyes to tell you if an item is better for you than not, then there is something wrong either with your own eyes or with the itemization in the game itself.


Theorycrafting will still, unfortunately, happen, but will never, EVER, be a match for a player with high skill.
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Burrick's argument I have heard when both expansions were released and tbh I think the argument is moot. By the time the expansions lands you will be moaning that the game is too samey and that we need some new content.

Neither expansion altered the entire style of gameplay as much as Cata though, this is a BIG change.

In terms of removing complicated stuff from the game, the stats that are being removed are completely pointless when the same effects can be granted via a combination of class talents/skills and effect granted to the other stats.

Why don't they just remove all stats from the game and give all items "quirky" things then? Or, remove all drops from the game, and have it so that when you beat a boss, your armour just gets better? The reason you don't do these things is because it would make the game lame, and the vast majority of people play this game because they enjoy doing better than others. It's all about competition, and removing the parts of the game which require thought, and effort to learn properly, makes those who put in that effort feel shafted. Putting these stats into talents just means the theorycrafting goes more into the talent trees, and all that's needed to succeed will be a cookie cutter spec, not knowledge of which stats to look for on gear.

If anything, this will make things more unpredictable as Blizz will (I suspect) head down the route of giving weapons and other items random procs to try and stop the whole "this items gives me a bigger number on my spreadsheet than this item so it must be an upgrade" attitude that permeates WoW atm - such an attitude fucks me right off and is not, in my opinion, in the spirit of the game. If you need something other than your own eyes to tell you if an item is better for you than not, then there is something wrong either with your own eyes or with the itemization in the game itself.

Atm people are judging what is an "upgrade" for them purely by the ilevel of the item, which in alot of cases can be totally incorrect. If people actually looked at the stats on the items, and knew what they were doing, instead of blindly needing on things with a higher ilevel, then the mentality of "LEWTZ!!1!!11!" would soon die off.
Needing something other than your eyes to tell what's best is a good thing, any RPG has that, but other RPGs are less gear dependent, and less numbercrunching to such an extreme level, so it becomes less important.

Theorycrafting will still, unfortunately, happen, but will never, EVER, be a match for a player with high skill.

I know what you mean, but tbh, those who look at the theorycrafting are 99% of the time those with the high skill, due to knowing how to correctly play their class to the best of it's abilities.
 

Naamoo

In Cryo Sleep
If you are a Balance druid or Elemental shaman:

* You will still share gear with Restoration druids and shaman.
* Your gear will have Spirit on it. It won’t have Hit on it.
* You will have a talent that converts Spirit to Hit. We will adjust talents accordingly so that you want about as much Spirit as, say, a warlock wants Hit.
* Hit on rings and other such gear will still benefit you.
* Raid buffs will no longer boost Spirit, so you shouldn’t find yourself unexpectedly over the Hit cap because of buffs.


Looking forward to seeing how this works! Although i hope there will be more leather gear floating around, difficult to roll and win with all the trees around!
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
I don't see the removal of theorycrafting.

For tanks, dropping defense means they have to focus a lot more on the avoidance aspects of their gearing, which in turn have changed and now have substantially different value per-stat; dodge as 100% avoidance, parry as 50% damage reduction for the next two attacks, block as 30% (before talents) for one attack only. Balancing your gear to get as much overall damage reduction as possible will still be something that'll require careful consideration.

For DPS, it sounds like mana management is going to be a hell of a lot different (personally I'm hoping for something that requires attention and consideration, and makes the use of mana-related cooldowns like potions or abilities like Evocation something you REALLY have to manage carefully). For non-mana DPS, I'm happy to see thieving of other armour classes will stop.

For healers, they've already said that the way healing will work will be different in that you won't be healing tanks for as much, but that they'll have more health to compensate; the difference between a quicker, saving heal and a slower heal that'll do a lot more becomes a more significant choice.

And finally, Reforging adds a lot more to gear consideration.

To be honest, the only true "negative" to the stat changes in terms of theorycrafting simplification is the removal of Armour Penetration, and I'm glad to see the back of that shitty stat. It'll still exist in talents, but thankfully won't be ruining my gear any more, and the other stat I dislike (haste; remember I often think of stats in Ret terms) is getting somewhat more valuable.

I see lots of people bitching about simplification, but you know what? If it means less terribad people in PuGs, makes gearing more smooth and fun without totally doing away with theorycrafting, and means that Blizz are less likely to mess things up with wrongly statting gearing, then I'm all for it.

Still crying? Have a cup of concrete, and HTFU :p
 

Zaggu

In Cryo Sleep
I don't see the removal of theorycrafting.

For tanks, dropping defense means they have to focus a lot more on the avoidance aspects of their gearing, which in turn have changed and now have substantially different value per-stat; dodge as 100% avoidance, parry as 50% damage reduction for the next two attacks, block as 30% (before talents) for one attack only. Balancing your gear to get as much overall damage reduction as possible will still be something that'll require careful consideration.

For DPS, it sounds like mana management is going to be a hell of a lot different (personally I'm hoping for something that requires attention and consideration, and makes the use of mana-related cooldowns like potions or abilities like Evocation something you REALLY have to manage carefully). For non-mana DPS, I'm happy to see thieving of other armour classes will stop.

For healers, they've already said that the way healing will work will be different in that you won't be healing tanks for as much, but that they'll have more health to compensate; the difference between a quicker, saving heal and a slower heal that'll do a lot more becomes a more significant choice.

And finally, Reforging adds a lot more to gear consideration.

To be honest, the only true "negative" to the stat changes in terms of theorycrafting simplification is the removal of Armour Penetration, and I'm glad to see the back of that shitty stat. It'll still exist in talents, but thankfully won't be ruining my gear any more, and the other stat I dislike (haste; remember I often think of stats in Ret terms) is getting somewhat more valuable.

I see lots of people bitching about simplification, but you know what? If it means less terribad people in PuGs, makes gearing more smooth and fun without totally doing away with theorycrafting, and means that Blizz are less likely to mess things up with wrongly statting gearing, then I'm all for it.

Still crying? Have a cup of concrete, and HTFU :p

This is how I see things, to be honest. I find that having to balance stats which are well defined in terms of what they give and have no weird inflexions regarding how much you do or don't have in the first place to be equally interesting without being "interesting" for all the wrong reasons.

You do have to make choices like do you do currently, but you may have a clearer view of the predictable outcome of said choices without having to doublecheck everything in a spreadsheet because of a ton of convoluted relations which are boring to say the least. This also allows for more control from Blizz, who have less room to screw things up regarding stats on gear, filler item points allocated to random and often useless stats...
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
Sorry to be a pain; could someone post the contents of this link as all WOW sites are blocked for me at work.

I can tell you now, no matter how much they simplify stats there'll still be newbs that are so newbish that there actually isn't a word to describe them.

Such as the hunter who rolled on a +str +def ring, and when inspected was wearing a cloak with +def, random other bits with str and the occasional bit of spell power.

We're (generally) smart and like to think about our stats/gear. But I do wonder is it that obvious to other people? The non-geeks? Is it obvious they should stack agi as a hunter? Does the game guide them that way?
 

thatbloke

Junior Administrator
et voila:

As many of you know from panels at last year’s BlizzCon and posts here on the forums since then, Cataclysm will bring about major changes to familiar character stats such as Intellect, Armor Penetration, Defense, and others, ultimately designed to make the effects of stats more easily understandable and make gear choices more interesting. As these changes will have a significant impact on how stats work and relate to one another, today we wanted to offer you a closer look at exactly what’s in store and explain some of the rationale before Cataclysm arrives.

The most obvious question these changes raise is "Why are stats being changed, and why now?" As the game has matured, we've run into increasingly complex issues with the current stat system. Many stats are inherently confusing, and the way they interrelate can feel convoluted. Attack Power, for example, currently translates to damage, but so does Armor Penetration. Defense provides five different statistical benefits of varying utility. Mana regeneration involves understanding multiple stats and rules and often ends up being irrelevant anyway. In addition, the difference between a "good stat" for a class and a "bad stat" can be extreme. Some casters want Haste but not Crit; hunters want Armor Penetration but not Haste. There are other overarching issues, as well, such as Intellect not being very exciting for casters despite it being a core stat -- and these are just a few examples.

Our ultimate goal is make gear a more interesting (and less confusing) choice by making each stat valuable to more players. While the reasoning behind some of the following changes may be clear, we understand that you may have questions about some of the less obvious alterations, and we'll do our best to answer any questions you may have here on the forums.


What You’ll See on Gear


Stamina - Because of the way we will be assigning Strength, Agility, and Intellect, non-plate wearers will end up with more Stamina than before. Health pools will be much closer between plate-wearers and other classes.

Spirit - Come Cataclysm, this stat should only be found on healing gear. Non-healing casters will have other systems in place to regenerate mana, and we are designing special solutions for Elemental shaman and Balance druids who often share gear with healers (more on this below). Raid buffs that currently boost Spirit (such as Blessing of Kings) will only boost the primary stats of Stamina, Strength, Agility, and Intellect. We are also likely changing the five-second rule and other quirks of the current regen system.

Intellect - Intellect will now grant Spell Power (more on this below). Intellect will also provide less mana than it currently does.

Haste - Haste will become more attractive for melee classes by allowing them to recover resources such as energy and runes more quickly. Our intention is for Haste to let you "do stuff" more often.

Block Rating - Block is being redesigned to scale better. Blocked attacks will simply hit for 30% less damage. Block rating will improve your chance to block, though overall block chances will be lower than they are today.

Parry - Parry no longer provides 100% avoidance and no longer speeds up attacks. Instead, when you parry an attack, it and the next attack will each hit for 50% damage (assuming they hit at all). In other words, Dodge is a chance to avoid 100% of the damage from one attack, Parry is a chance to avoid 50% of the damage from two attacks, and Block is a chance to avoid 30% of the damage from one attack.

Mastery - This is a new stat that will allow players to become better at whatever makes their chosen talent tree cool or unique. It's directly tied to talents, so what you gain from improving this stat is entirely dependent upon your class and the talent specialization you choose. We’ll talk more about specific Mastery benefits in the future.

Armor - The way Armor mitigates damage is not changing, but the Armor stat has been rebalanced to mirror changes to the armor curve in Cataclysm. As a result, bonus Armor will go down slightly overall. We are also changing the mitigation difference among armor types so that plate doesn’t offer so much more protection than mail, leather, and cloth.

Resilience - This will only affect damage done by players and critical damage done by players. It will not impact crit chance, mana drains, or other such effects.

Strength, Agility, Hit Rating, Expertise, and Critical Strike Rating - These will all still appear on gear as well. Aside from situations mentioned elsewhere in this list, in general these will function similarly to how they do now, though the details -- such as how much Hit Rating you might need to effectively combat high-level creatures (more on this below) -- are likely to change.


Being Removed from Items


Attack Power - This stat will no longer be present on most items as a flat value, though it will still show up on some process. Strength and Agility, which will be present on items, will grant the appropriate amount of Attack Power (generally 2 Attack Power per point of Strength or Agility) depending upon which stat a particular class favors. Agility may provide less Crit than it currently does.

Spell Power - Spell Power is another stat that you'll no longer see present on most items. Instead, as mentioned above, Intellect will grant Spell Power. One exception is that caster weapons will still have Spell Power. This allows us to make weapons proportionately more powerful for casters in the same way they are for melee classes.

Armor Penetration - This stat will no longer be present on items. Armor Penetration will still exist in talents and abilities.

Shield Block Value - This stat will no longer be present on items, since the amount blocked is always proportional to the amount of damage done. Talents and other effects might still modify the damage-reduction percentage from 30%, however.


Going Away Completely


MP5 - This stat will be removed from the game completely. Holy paladins and Restoration shaman will be redesigned to benefit from Spirit.

Defense - Defense is being removed from the game entirely. Tanking classes should expect to become uncrittable versus creatures just by shifting into Defensive Stance, Frost Presence, Bear Form, or by using Righteous Fury.

Spell Ranks - Spell ranks will cease to exist. All spells will have one rank and will scale appropriately with level. The levels at which you can learn certain spells are being changed in order to fill in some of the gaps, and we will be introducing some new spells to learn along the way as well.

Weapon Skill - This stat will be removed from the game completely. Classes will start with all the weapon skills they need to know and will not need to improve them.


What Else You Should Know


Combat ratings - All ratings will be much harder to "cap out" at maximum gear levels. Ratings will be steeper in Cataclysm, and creatures in later tiers of content will be harder to hit or crit, similar to how level-83 mobs are harder to hit or crit than level-80 mobs.

Reforging - While these changes will go a long way to making a wider variety of stats more attractive, we understand that sometimes you simply don’t want more Hit Rating on your gear or you’d rather have more Haste than more Crit. In Cataclysm, we are going to give players a way to replace stats on gear as part of the existing profession system. As a general rule of thumb, you’ll be able to convert one stat to 50% of another stat. While some conversions (like converting Stamina to Strength) won’t be permitted, the goal is to let you customize your gear more.

Gems - We are changing the gem colors of a few stats as a result of these adjustments. For example, Hit is likely to be blue instead of yellow. We'll have more details on this in the future.

Changes to Existing Gear

As with previous expansions, we plan to roll out these changes and modify all existing gear shortly before Cataclysm launches, though it’s still too early to say exactly when. For the most part, the gear you have will still be good for you, though there will be exceptions, such as warriors using leather and mail armor.

If you are a tank (druids excepted), expect to see:


  • No more Defense on gear. Existing Defense becomes Dodge, Parry, or Block Rating.
  • No more Block Value on gear. Existing Block Value becomes Block Rating.
  • You’ll have as much Stamina as you’re used to, though you may notice your tanking plate has a bit less Stamina than a comparable piece of DPS plate, since we tend to take the gem budget out of your most attractive stat.
  • Bonus Armor on gear will go down slightly.


If you are a melee DPS class, druid tank, or hunter, expect to see:

  • A lot more Stamina. Bear-form Stamina scaling will be lowered as a result.
  • Strength if you wear plate. Agility if you wear mail or leather.
  • Existing Attack Power becomes Agility and Stamina.Armor Penetration becomes Haste or Crit.
  • No Intellect on melee gear. Hunters won’t need Intellect since they will no longer use mana. Shaman and Retribution paladins will get mana and spell damage in other ways.


If you are a DPS caster, expect to see:

  • A lot more Stamina.
  • All of your Spell Power converted to Intellect and Stamina.
  • No Spirit. You won’t miss Spirit, though, because you won’t need it for DPS or mana regen.


If you are a healer, expect to see:

  • A lot more Stamina.
  • All of your Spell Power converted to Intellect and Stamina.
  • Spirit instead of MP5. You’ll probably be happy with Spirit, though, because mana regen is going to matter more than it does currently. Healing paladins and shaman will benefit more from Spirit than they do currently.


If you are a Balance druid or Elemental shaman:

  • You will still share gear with Restoration druids and shaman.
  • Your gear will have Spirit on it. It won’t have Hit on it.
  • You will have a talent that converts Spirit to Hit. We will adjust talents accordingly so that you want about as much Spirit as, say, a warlock wants Hit.
  • Hit on rings and other such gear will still benefit you.
  • Raid buffs will no longer boost Spirit, so you shouldn’t find yourself unexpectedly over the Hit cap because of buffs.


Many lower-level items with nonsensical combinations of stats, such as Agility and Spirit, will be changed. We're also updating quest rewards, trade skills, and loot drops to support better itemization for class builds that weren't widely available or used prior to The Burning Crusade (such as Balance druids).

We're aware this is a lot of information to take in, but this is still only a piece of the larger picture, and many of these changes rely on integration with other systems we haven't yet discussed in detail. In the weeks and months ahead, we'll continue to tell you more about these changes, along with all of the new and exciting features we have planned for Cataclysm.
 
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