Core Principles - A Discussion

[Zooggy]

Hello, all,

So, I'm (slowly) returning to action, as the pressure from various projects begins to wane.

For a (not so) triumphant return, I want to get everyone's input on the re-hash of the guild core principles.

1) Origins and Context. The Haven is a guild in a WoW PVPRP server, and is an integral part of THN. As such, as long as that's the game we want to play, Blizzard's Terms of Use, RP server policies and other policies, are to be adhered to, at all times. By the same token, as long as THN is hosting us, the THN servers' policies and terms of use are to be upheld at all times.

2) Community. The Haven is a community guild. That means people are welcome in (or out) at any time, as long as they are a good fit in the community. Members are expected to play the game the way they want to play it, as long as they adhere to these core principles, and respect whatever guild policies may be in play at any given moment.

3) Friendliness. Members of The Haven are expected to have a jolly attitude towards each other, as well as towards other players in the server.

4) Equitability. "Justice" and "fairness" are somewhat empty words. However, The Haven strives to treat everyone with as much equitability as possible.

5) Helpfulness. Helping other members of the guild is generally encouraged. Members are generally not expected to go way out of their way in the extreme, just to help, but if you need help with something, be patient. Sooner or later, it'll come. And please, don't beg. It's bad form.

6) Purpose. While The Haven is not a "raiding guild", in that it does not exist for the specific purpose of raiding, it does exist to provide a common ground in which to explore game content. Raiding, in particular, is an important part of the guild's identity, specifically because that is where organization in large numbers comes in.

These were debated at length by the whole of the officers, and it's now time to see where the community stands on them.

Cheers,
J.

P.S. Over the next few days, expect posts from me on such various issues as community, equitability, appologizing (and when not to), and other stuff. In the meantime, I'm still here and current on the forums, so feel free to PM me with pretty much anything.

 

[Thunder]

I expected the thread to be about Corenith... ohh well.


I selected "I like them, but I don't know that I'm enough of a person to uphold them at all times." because I do have my precious foul moods.

 

[Angelic]

I voted for "Endorse fully", even though I'm currently not playing the game - mostly because I think I did follow them while I was still playing and were I to return to the game I would do so again. Finally also because I think they are fairly well worded and should be upheld by ALL members at all times.

As for the RP-PvP realm: we all know how the RP really is - only a fraction of the realm's population does it. As such it should be noted that RP is not enforced in the guild. The members are merely asked not to disrupt it when they see it and, if possible, if approached in a RP manner to act back in an appropriate manner.

Helpfulness - yes, don't beg, please, PLEASE don't It's a game most of us play for our own enjoyment and for many the amount of fun correlates directly with personal progress. This along with time constraints many of us feel it might be difficult to help in any particular case - however helpful replies in chat take next to NO time so please, PLEASE if someone asks for something in the /g, do say something, no matter whether you can help or not. Hearing "sorry mate, can't help ya, doing X" is much, much better than hearing my favourite *tumbleweed* pass by.

 

[Ronin Storm]

It's a little facetious for me to vote but as this set of principles intersects with the THN set I hoped it was fair enough to vote for "fully endorse".

In the spirit of helpfulness, I provide below a set of similar principles I wrote for the Order of Green Knights, an Everquest 2 guild I was an Officer in.

Through this Charter the Order of Green Knights define the spirit of their intentions and the guides for their actions. The words and deeds of a Green Knight, throughout Norrath and beyond, should reflect the spirit of this Charter.

The Order of Green Knights was founded on the 13th day of November in the year 2004 by Zenytia.

We abide by three principles:

Respect & Honor:

To be respected one must show respect, and a Green Knight is respectful without exception. Green Knights are honest and trustworthy, a bastion of honor come what may. In this way, a Green Knight earns respect for themselves and their comrades-in-arms.

Fellowship:

A Green Knight is part of a family - the Order of Green Knights. The Green Knights are friends unto being brothers and sisters to each other. If all else fails, we remember that we are a community of friends and we can work out our differences.

Guidance:

A Green Knight is also a good samaritan, helping others through the world of Norrath whenever possible. The Order defends the weak, heals the wounded and brings the lost home again.

Similar sort of smell, I think. Different game, of course, so some of the mechanics operate differently. The whole aggro mechanic makes "heal the wounded" problematic, for example...

 

[Huung]

The clash between 2) and 6) has always been a problem. Whilst I like that The Haven isn't a pure raiding guild (been there, done that, don't have the time for it anymore), allowing people to leave and join freely doesn't help the raiding situation. We get no consistency on the sign-ups because people don't have to raid.

Unless we expand the guild to unwieldy sizes in the hopes of getting 25 people who want to raid each week (a bad idea in itself) then I think we have to realise that we really won't ever be able to progress as a guild at 25 man content. We might have the people to do so on occasion, but we lack the reliability.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a dig at any people in particular, I myself am taking a break from the game atm, something which would see me kicked from a raiding guild. I just feel that pushing for 25 man progression with a lack of "raiders" will only get us all disappointed and annoyed. We all know what happens when people get annoyed - there's a fair few of us with bad tempers

 

[Nactall]

I stand for 100% behind these Principles, these core principles made me choose haven in the first place, haven is famous for that point. When I started playing until now I mainly follow these rules I will pass them sometimes in rough times but further I always try 2 play by these points.

Cheers,
Robin

 

[Brighthorn]

voted for two, as i play drunk every now and then so... friendliness is sometimes VERY hard for me to uphold, but don't get me wrong, I don't do it for kicks, it's just that when people piss me off (serious reasons, not bullspie) I make sure they know how I feel...

and don't get me started on Leiz..........!!!!!!!!!!§§

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey,

Huung, first off, thanks for your response. It was thoughful and clearly laid out.

This is a discussion thread, after all , so, let me explain where we're coming from.

The clash between 2) and 6)

...is an illusion. Always has been, although there are a great many people that, in their head, see a division between the "community side" and the "raiding side", where there are no sides at all.

allowing people to leave and join freely doesn't help the raiding situation. We get no consistency on the sign-ups because people don't have to raid.

Unless we expand the guild to unwieldy sizes in the hopes of getting 25 people who want to raid each week (a bad idea in itself)

See, that's the thing. Critical mass is the name of the game, for us. And yes, that means that maybe, just maybe, The Haven is not the place for the truly hard core raider that demands to be in on every single guild raid.

I completely agree that, in order to sustain regular 25-mans week in and week out, we might need to aim for the 40-50 range of regular Haven raiders, with a good mix of tanks, healers and specialty roles.

I definitely do not consider that to be an unwieldy number. People just need to realise that those sorts of numbers mean that one might have to sit out, every so often.

It also has the added benefit that people that are more on top of the forums get more chances to sign up early, which has all sorts of nice simmetries to it.

there's a fair few of us with bad tempers

Yes, well, refer to principle #3 for that!

Cheers,
J.

 

[Zooggy]

Hoy,

Ronin, thanks for chipping in. Cool principles, btw.

Only difference seems to be that the Green Knights principles seem to be more of a set of "in-character" principles, whereas The Haven core is meant to apply to the players themselves.

Otherwise, spiffy.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Ronin Storm]

the Green Knights principles seem to be more of a set of "in-character" principles, whereas The Haven core is meant to apply to the players themselves.

Interesting you should say that. I've had similar discussions in the past. Indeed, that same guild once had a set of rules that applied to the players and a complementary set that applied to the characters and was appropriate for the world context. That was simplified down to a single set.

It's a bit of a devil separating player from character in an MMO as the way of interacting with an online player is usually through the facade of their character. Thus the line of "this is player, that is character" is blurred and people's expectations become hazy with that confusion.

In the end, we phrased a set of principles that could be read in character but applied equally to players and characters. They work for a family style Guild. I think a hardcore raiding Guild would probably collapse under the strain of trying to be both family and fighting unit...

 

[SwampFae]

Voted: "I like them, but I don't know that I'm enough of a person to uphold them at all times."

This because we all have "one of those days" and some mistakes can be made.

We all slip up at some point in our lives

So. Long story short:
I like them.
I'll try my best to follow them as often as humanly possible

 

[Skcornnelg]

/agree

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey,

Right. I'm quite happy with the way the poll turned out, but I have to say, I expected nothing less.

Even the few dissenting voices let me know that there's still stuff for me to do out there, to make y'all feel at home.

Huung's response, in particular, picqued my interest, and I figured it would lead to some discussion. That may still happen, so I'll keep the thread open.

I've closed the poll, however, as it was just meant to take the pulse of the guild, and that has been successfully acomplished.

I'll post the principles in a closed sticky in a few minutes.

As for those that voted "I like them, but I don't know that I'm enough of a person to uphold them at all times", all I need you to realise is that principles are not rules and policies. Policies are meant to be about what to do, while principles are meant to be about why to do it. If you can read the principles with an open mind and think to yourself, "yes, this is how I feel about these people and this group", then that should be plenty!

Cheers,
J.