Zhinrak
In Cryo Sleep
I know like T-bones recent post that 8 man group seemed like pure elitism, and unfortunately it was never explained why it was kept so close nit. Firstly i want to point out that the 8 man naxx run done months ago was meant as an initial test, to see if it was possible, but the responce we were given left people in sour moods for ages, both members and officers.
The reason why the 8 man run was so selective was for a few simple reasons.
1. We had about 30 active raiders at the time, and only wanted to do 1 test run, 30 yesses and 8 spots. Announcing it like that would just torment more people.
2. Group logistics. 2 people down, you need to find what to remove, you still need 2 tanks and atleast 2 healers, agruably 3 for some fights. which leaves you with 3 or 4 DPS instead of 5 or 6. [keep in mind this was also before duel spec, which makes life so much easier now].
At the same time within those 8 people you need atleas 1 who can de-curse, one to dispell diseases, and one to dispell poisons and 1 damn good kiter for gluth [we still have some attempts that fail with 2].
Then you have to look at what buffs your raid NEEDS, being short on people buffs like Kings, Wisdom, Fortitute, Arcane intellect suddenly become more valuable.
Most importantly your remaining DPS also need to be doing enough damage to make up for the fact your 2 people down.
At the time the requirments for such a group meant the selection of those who went had to be selective in order for it to succeed, especially when we consider that at the time most out 10 mans barely managed to finish a ful naxx run.
I will admit, i do see the elitism in some of these groups, and im not going to deny that to an extent it probably does exist, but as mentioned before alot of the selection is based more on just skill and gear, its also based on competance, knowledge of the instance, how good your connection is, what class you are [yes despite what blizzard say this is still a strong consideration].
As hard as it is, please try not to get offended if your left out. Not being selected is bound to annoy people because no one likes missing out. Its not always an easy choice when it comes to selecting our best for these sorts of things. DPS is an easier choice, we look at the small pool of members we have doing the right numbers, select what classes we need most, and those with the most experience but even then the choice isnt simple and believe it or not sometimes even some of "the elite" have been left out. When it comes to tanks or healers its a far harder choice because of the limited spots, and the difficulty of gauging who is a better tank or healer. Again the choice is primarily made on gear, Experience and then class.
One highly important point i want to make clear: If you are not chosen, it does not automatically mean we think your rubbish. If you think your a good player and deserve to be in a group your missing out on, then most likely you are that good and do deserve to be in that group, but that decision had to be made on something more arbitary, such as your class or knowledge of the instance and it was a tough choice to leave you out.
Unfortunately alot of it will come across as elitist, because no matter how you look at it, whether its the ulduar groups, or 8 man naxx, it IS elitist. We need our most elite members for some of these jobs, and alot of our best people happen to be members of the officer group, it is just an unfortunate fact. But its not like we are being completely selfish and un-diplomatic. We do our best in the normal raiding rotation to include everyone and give everyone a fair chance at seeing the instances.
To be blunt though there are a few people in this guild, who raid with us rather constantly and if they were in an actual raiding guild, who were truly as elitist as some people try to make out that we are; wouldnt be here [this is aimed at no one in particular so please dont interpret it as such].
When considering our raid groups on normal weeks we try to be as diplomatic as possible, but its impossible to be fair to everyone and at the same time have a raid group that will work, run well and go smoothly. Trust me, if the game let us take anyone and everyone we wanted each week and still succeed, then all our problems would be solved, because trust me when i say that the people being acused of being elitist, do not like being called as such, and i can garantee you that ask anyone of those who youd acuse and they would say the same.
I've organised raids, and leaving people out, and choosing those for such a selective group is incredibly difficult. Not because its hard choosing who gets to go, its incredibly painful choosing who DOESNT. None of us enjoy telling people they cant raid, we dont like telling people they cannot come to ulduar. If we could we would let everyone who has signed up raid, and we do our best to let that happen. We DO enjoy raiding with everyone in the guild, we do consider everyone friends, or at the very least collegues.
All im trying to say is that alot of these accusations make it seem as if leaving out our good people and friends from raids is an easy decision when infact it couldnt be further from the truth because we know we WILL get aggrivated responces and we have in the past lost some of our better players and most respected friends. This is perhaps the reason that it has taken T-bone so long to make his suggestion about ulduar groups.
After his suggested 3 weeks is over i have no doubt we will return to attempting 2 even groups of ulduar each week and continue trying to include everyone into our raiding while at the same time creating successful groups.
At the very lest i hope anyone who has read this post feels a little more insightful into the though process behind our raid selection, and understand that it is not us choosing groups based on who we enjoy playing with most.
Zooggy, if this thread even begins to start turning sour like the last one please lock it. To everyone else, this post is mostly from my stand point, i know im not as involved in alot of this as the other officers, but i hope i have relieved you of some of your concens and ill try to help with any others.
The reason why the 8 man run was so selective was for a few simple reasons.
1. We had about 30 active raiders at the time, and only wanted to do 1 test run, 30 yesses and 8 spots. Announcing it like that would just torment more people.
2. Group logistics. 2 people down, you need to find what to remove, you still need 2 tanks and atleast 2 healers, agruably 3 for some fights. which leaves you with 3 or 4 DPS instead of 5 or 6. [keep in mind this was also before duel spec, which makes life so much easier now].
At the same time within those 8 people you need atleas 1 who can de-curse, one to dispell diseases, and one to dispell poisons and 1 damn good kiter for gluth [we still have some attempts that fail with 2].
Then you have to look at what buffs your raid NEEDS, being short on people buffs like Kings, Wisdom, Fortitute, Arcane intellect suddenly become more valuable.
Most importantly your remaining DPS also need to be doing enough damage to make up for the fact your 2 people down.
At the time the requirments for such a group meant the selection of those who went had to be selective in order for it to succeed, especially when we consider that at the time most out 10 mans barely managed to finish a ful naxx run.
I will admit, i do see the elitism in some of these groups, and im not going to deny that to an extent it probably does exist, but as mentioned before alot of the selection is based more on just skill and gear, its also based on competance, knowledge of the instance, how good your connection is, what class you are [yes despite what blizzard say this is still a strong consideration].
As hard as it is, please try not to get offended if your left out. Not being selected is bound to annoy people because no one likes missing out. Its not always an easy choice when it comes to selecting our best for these sorts of things. DPS is an easier choice, we look at the small pool of members we have doing the right numbers, select what classes we need most, and those with the most experience but even then the choice isnt simple and believe it or not sometimes even some of "the elite" have been left out. When it comes to tanks or healers its a far harder choice because of the limited spots, and the difficulty of gauging who is a better tank or healer. Again the choice is primarily made on gear, Experience and then class.
One highly important point i want to make clear: If you are not chosen, it does not automatically mean we think your rubbish. If you think your a good player and deserve to be in a group your missing out on, then most likely you are that good and do deserve to be in that group, but that decision had to be made on something more arbitary, such as your class or knowledge of the instance and it was a tough choice to leave you out.
Unfortunately alot of it will come across as elitist, because no matter how you look at it, whether its the ulduar groups, or 8 man naxx, it IS elitist. We need our most elite members for some of these jobs, and alot of our best people happen to be members of the officer group, it is just an unfortunate fact. But its not like we are being completely selfish and un-diplomatic. We do our best in the normal raiding rotation to include everyone and give everyone a fair chance at seeing the instances.
To be blunt though there are a few people in this guild, who raid with us rather constantly and if they were in an actual raiding guild, who were truly as elitist as some people try to make out that we are; wouldnt be here [this is aimed at no one in particular so please dont interpret it as such].
When considering our raid groups on normal weeks we try to be as diplomatic as possible, but its impossible to be fair to everyone and at the same time have a raid group that will work, run well and go smoothly. Trust me, if the game let us take anyone and everyone we wanted each week and still succeed, then all our problems would be solved, because trust me when i say that the people being acused of being elitist, do not like being called as such, and i can garantee you that ask anyone of those who youd acuse and they would say the same.
I've organised raids, and leaving people out, and choosing those for such a selective group is incredibly difficult. Not because its hard choosing who gets to go, its incredibly painful choosing who DOESNT. None of us enjoy telling people they cant raid, we dont like telling people they cannot come to ulduar. If we could we would let everyone who has signed up raid, and we do our best to let that happen. We DO enjoy raiding with everyone in the guild, we do consider everyone friends, or at the very least collegues.
All im trying to say is that alot of these accusations make it seem as if leaving out our good people and friends from raids is an easy decision when infact it couldnt be further from the truth because we know we WILL get aggrivated responces and we have in the past lost some of our better players and most respected friends. This is perhaps the reason that it has taken T-bone so long to make his suggestion about ulduar groups.
After his suggested 3 weeks is over i have no doubt we will return to attempting 2 even groups of ulduar each week and continue trying to include everyone into our raiding while at the same time creating successful groups.
At the very lest i hope anyone who has read this post feels a little more insightful into the though process behind our raid selection, and understand that it is not us choosing groups based on who we enjoy playing with most.
Zooggy, if this thread even begins to start turning sour like the last one please lock it. To everyone else, this post is mostly from my stand point, i know im not as involved in alot of this as the other officers, but i hope i have relieved you of some of your concens and ill try to help with any others.
I asked what will happen if we do not have the numbers after the three weeks! ( and that question has been answered by Lithy already 
