"Northern" Ireland

[Nanor]

I thought, living in the region, that I´d bring the discussion closer than Lebanon.

For those of you unaware, there are two types of person in Northern Ireland:
Nationalists, (like me, for example) are the group that are fighting toward a united Ireland.

and

Unionists, who are the group that are fighting to keep Northern Ireland part of the British Empire.

It baffles me as to why they are trying to keep it a part of the British Empire, saying it´s their country, when surely you all must know that it was originally our country taken from us.

I was wondering what your views were? Do you believe NI should stay part of the British Empire, or do you believe that it should be given back to the Irish Government?

Discuss..

 

[Gizmo-5]

Funny you discuss this as my father was figthing the irish

I think that the entire angst between the two factions has bankrupted the northern territory, the amount of money spent on security systems has meant much less on development and money spent on improving facilitys.

Wheras the southern area of ireland is full of cranes, lots of money pooring into development.

The situation has evolved with recent oversees events. The IRA for example has almost become non existant in there stance towards the unionists, this is because of the war on terrorism in my opinion and now have degraded to a mafia status, operating protection circuits and other largely criminal activitys.

But the people are the most important part, firstly, what do you gain by getting northern ireland back, secondly, do you deserve it, logically this would be a no considering that you have been blowing up the countrymen of the state you want unition with. And thirdly, as you stated the unionists are born and bred in northern ireland, although it is not the entirety of northern ireland that wants to stay unionist the sure fact that a good half of the people there want to stay part of the union speaks for itself?

I guess the easiest way to do it is to move the borders about so that everybody is happy with the national identity they have.

 

[Gopha]

Personally, I would like a united Ireland,but my ancestors did not, my Grandad got killed by a British soldier while he was working for the IRA. Obviously I am biased towards the south as I used to live there, but I have no hate against Protestants at all. I do not like the idea of the British empire, they have put four different nations under one flag, and I do not like the concept.

 

[Nanor]

The IRA for example has almost become non existant in there stance towards the unionists, this is because of the war on terrorism in my opinion and now have degraded to a mafia status, operating protection circuits and other largely criminal activitys.

Incorrect. The IRA have fully disbanded, they have given up their weapons. See, you only really know about the IRA because your press gives all the news about how bad they are. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Now, the UDA for example, you probably haven´t heard much of them, but they´re just as bad. For those of you who have heard of Bombay street, when the Unionists basically went cruising around town, to skin, yes skin Catholics.


And WTF? Do we deserve our country back?? How can we not deserve our country back?! It´s like me taking your house and saying, do you deserve it back!

What have we to gain? That we´re part of the original country. I don´t want to pay for your war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don´t want to pay for Pubic_Warriors equipment when he goes to Afghanistan. And the people 30 odd years ago certainly didn´t want to pay the wages of those beating the crap out of them.

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

And you actually believe the IRA have disbanded and given up all of their weapons? I think that if you do believe that, you must be utterly naive. Even if they have broken apart somewhat, the radicalists will still stand their ground no matter what the head of the body decides to do.

The whole 'country back' thing is a bit strange, I mean it is 'your' country after all, but like Gizmo says, what benefit do you actually gain out of it? There will always be Unionists in N.I., and if it did eventually become amalgamated into an Irish republic, there would be blood flowing in the streets. I cant really see a peaceful end for anyone.
Aside from that, it's probably better for the country to be part of the British state. You could liken it to the Scottish independence fight that seems to be endless. I mean, I dont like/hate England and all they ever seem to do is cause us misery, but I certainly do not want to break off from GB. 'United we stand, divided we fall'. We've been through enough wars to have to put up with a civil war, and splitting up in a world as volatile as this is surely just a path to disaster.

 

[Nanor]

WTF?

What do we have to gain? Not to mention the fact it´s our country, the fact it´s been split up, the fact that politicians in England have the right to decide what happens in a totally different country.

I don´t want to be a part of the GB. The Empire has caused the Irish nothing but pain, why the hell am I speaking English? I should be speaking Irish, I should be able to walk down mBeal Feirste city and not have a thought in my mind about people coming and attacking me. I should not have to pay for your nuclear weapons, I should not be paying for your brand new Armoured Vehicles, nor your Body Armor.

I should be paying for the Irish Government, I should be paying for new Hospitals in an area near me. I should not have to pay for some hospital in Kent, or somewhere. I want to be paying taxes to reactivate the dis-used hospital nearby.

How much of my money goes to things I want it to go to? I don´t want to fund your armies various quests.

And you actually believe the IRA have disbanded and given up all of their weapons?

Ofcourse there will be a few who won´t give up. That´s the same with an organisation, people will stick on. Ofcourse, have your heard of any IRA attacks recently? I haven´t.. all I have heard is the UDA bickering amonsgt eachother, or last year, when the Orange Order fought against their own police force. They weren´t very loyal then.

 

[Gopha]

The whole point of, tax, you say you dont want to pay tax for hospitals in Kent, but imsure my family pay tax for causes in Northern Ireland, its something that is personallly beyond our control. That is what keeps us equal. Everyone works together to help each other when they have their need. A socialist party run this country and no matter how mcuh we hate it thats what its going to be for the next few years.

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Obviously there is some kind of deep seated sentimental root that I will probably never get the full grasp of, but whilst Im on the outside looking in, my viewpoint is : You're better off with us than you are alone.
And that, my friend, is in YOUR best interests, not mine. Like I said, if you regain control of Northern Ireland, there WILL be a massacre. Apart from Northern Ireland being ripped apart, I don't think the IRA would stop and be content with just your own little hunk of rock. Soon, Ireland would be at odds with the rest of GB, maybe a few disagreements in terms of national borders, seas, imports/exports... things could get really nasty. Then you wouldnt be funding our little army, itd be your own that you were pouring cash into.

Also, what you said about the IRA, why announce it's complete stand-off and then agree that it will keep holding on? Oh, and I do actually remember a couple of IRA attacks recently. Remember that multi-million pound bank raid only a couple of months ago? IRA funding. The UDA are obviously in a bit of disarray, but thats a kind of stupid idea defending your own terrorist organization by denouncing the UDA over its internal affairs. Make no mistake, I hate the UDA, IRA, Orange Order... I hate it all. It's just a loosely held excuse to cause a bit of adolescent gangwar to be honest. Im hoping you arent taking quite as an extremist stance as some of your cohorts.

Hopefully I'm not sounding too aggressive, I'm not. Sometimes its just impossible to unsettle a peoples' standpoint, thats why I'm not trying to.

Out of interest, I'm glad you are taking the initiative to protect the welfare of your own people. I would do anything, almost, to ensure that the scottish way of life remains a part of modern existence. INCLUDING siding with our somewhat arrogant neighbours who have a larger military force than us.

 

[Fuzzy Bunny]

During the Vietnam War, some Americans refused to pay 30% of their taxes because that's about what they figured was being spent on the war effort.

 

[Nanor]

You're better off with us than you are alone.

How? With us under your rule, GB is actually losing money, rather than gaining a profit. If it wasn´t for the original British people settling here, we would have been a united Ireland a long time ago, the British Empire just can´t stand the world pointing the finger at them and saying "You left your people behind!".

And when you say there would be a massacre, if the British pulled out in the morning, the Unionists would jump up, and say, take Belfast and declare it as their stronghold, leaving the Irish Army/The Police Force to take action against them.

The IRA bank raid, ofcourse, it hasn´t actually been proven that it was them. I´m not saying it wasn´t then, but Hugh Orde was a bit quick to blame those "Fenian Bastards". Not to mention, the Bank Raid actually took place before the ceasfire was called. The raid took place on December 2004, when the actual ceasefire was called on July 2005.

You say the IRA is an excuse for some Adolescent fighting? I sincerely doubt that. It´s an organisation created to fight towards a united Ireland. The IRA, In my honest opinion, are not a terrorist army. Terrerorsim was defined as warfare sponsored by a state, and back in 1916, it was sponsored by the state of Ireland, and is probably still sponsored now. I´m not saying they´re supplying arms, or something so ludicrous, but I´m saying they simply stand up for what the IRA are doing, or rather, were doing.

And saying that if Ireland become United that they would begin squabbling? The Free State and GB have lived in peace up until now.

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

The IRA, In my honest opinion, are not a terrorist army.

The IRA ... the IRA not a terrorist army? Since when did bombing civilians become a legitimate form of warfare? Thats all lovely and nice supporting your own country's indepence, but nobody in their right mind would support a slaughter! If the Irish Republic are still aiding the IRA in any way, even if they claim they are only supporting the general movement, they are just as bad as anyone. That's like saying 'Yes, we gave this money to Saddam Hussein so that he could build a hospital. Its not our fault he bought weapons and bombed Kuwait, despite his morbid history and terrorist regime.'.

Yes, there would be a hefty amount of 'squabbling'. However, I wouldnt exactly call a car-bomb 'squabbling'. The free state and GB have lived in peace up until now? Now, as in when? The IRA have continually oppressed Northern Ireland for the last ... god knows how long; and GB have had to step in to protect our people. Car-bombings, border raids, bombs tied to republican flags up flagpoles... hardly peace.

And when you say there would be a massacre, if the British pulled out in the morning, the Unionists would jump up, and say, take Belfast and declare it as their stronghold, leaving the Irish Army/The Police Force to take action against them.

= massacre. Whether or not the Unionists would 'jump up, and say, take Belfast', there would still be massacre. The Republicans (the IRA at least) would never allow pro-Unionists to reside in 'their' country. Therefore, ethnic cleansing. Massacre. You would probably be far better off just skirmishing at the border.

 

[Loki]

The IRA, In my honest opinion, are not a terrorist army. Terrerorsim was defined as warfare sponsored by a state, and back in 1916, it was sponsored by the state of Ireland, and is probably still sponsored now.

I disagree. Terrorism is violence, or a threat of violence, towards non-combatants to generate fear and disruption. Ultimately leading to compliance towards specific political, social or religious beliefs.

 

[DeZmond]

I was last in Ireland back last June, and had a great time (I was a couple of miles south of Dublin) - I think full nationalisation would be great for NI... especially since we can just call the whole landmass 'Ireland' without this north/south messing about. And besides, who doesn't want independance?

In terms of economics, ROI is doing amazingly well at the moment. For a long time property was really cheap to buy but as more manufacturers pour in the economy is rocketing to say the least. NI would probably benefit from joining a strong, rapidly growing economy like that of ROI.

 

[Nanor]

The IRA ... the IRA not a terrorist army? Since when did bombing civilians become a legitimate form of warfare?

Well, that´s true.. but by that definition, the IRA would not be a terrorist army. And Israel seems to have bombed civillians. Ofcourse, they may say it was by accident, but who can be sure?

And I did not say, nor did I suggest that the Free state was actually giving money, or anything to the IRA.

Yes the Free state and GB have lived in peace, I can´t recall Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair every having a public shoutout? I´ve seen them shaking hands and having various discussions about NI.

Hahaha, the GB have had to move into protect their country? The Unionists have done fine. I mean, just give them some riot gear and send them to a Catholic Area and go hunting. It´s retaliation. You could say the Nationalists perhaps did something to provoke them, but I´m going to take the childish option and say "You started it."

Say for example if the British did just pull out of Northern Ireland in the morning and handed it back over to the Irish Governent. The Unionists would be outraged, that they had just lost their country!! How Déja Vú..

The Unionists having lost their country would uprise and carry all manner of attacks against the Irish Government.

We´d all act the same if we lost our country. At least our attacks have some justification to them. I take the stance, you brought this upon youself.

 

[Taffy]

Well, I was gearing up for a big long lecture on why Northern Ireland should stay part of the U.K, but I couldn't think of any points to back up my argument. That made me think, 'WHY should it stay part of the U.K?' My conclusion is this: it shouldn't.

I can't imagine it does a huge amount for British industry in particular (sorry if this isn't true, plaease correct me) so I can't see the benefit from a British point of view.

From the Irish point of view, I can't see that their economy would suffer hugely from joining the Republic. I say allow Northern Ireland to become part of the Republic, and, sorry Nanor, but it won't be the Brits problem anymore. May sound arrogant, but as Nanor says, were losing money, so maybe its time to cut the cords?

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Im going to read up some more about how N.I. became part of the GB in the first place. It's all well and good discussing why it should remain, but Im sadly lacking in the history department as far as that is concerned. Im also curious as to why Nanor claims N.I. is, by rights, belonging to the Republic.

Taffy - that is a fair point. However, I'm not one to 'dump the ballast' once it loses its value. Remember the British Empire used to stretch right across the world, and it was a fairly profitable venture. Nobody was terribly oppressed, but it brought together a wide selection of countries and cultures under the same flag. Now the Empire has receded, for whatever reason, and it actually turns out that Britain, formerly the rock-solid standpoint and pinnacle of civilization, has been far surpassed by the likes of America (one of it's colonies), Japan ...

 

[Nanor]

First:

Your right Taffy, Northern Ireland isn´t doing.. anything.. for British Industry. It used to be that they had great ship buiilding capabilities, but then they figured that Asians could do it for cheaper.

I doubt we´ll have a problem though. Ofcourse the Unionists won´t be happy, but we´re in the right.


Secondly:

Testuo, as we´ve been taught in history, the first time Ireland was populated was when the British were worried that the Spanish would take it over as a base to attack Britian from around the time of the Spanish Armada. Though my dad says that it´s been attacked earlier than that..

 

[Gizmo-5]

broadcasting live from Omagh (on 56k )

Nanor your a sound guy imo, but i cant help saying your wrong.

firstly, the IRA are a terrorist organisation, killing civilians is not legit, you have no excuse, it was not a badly aimed shell, it was planted to kill people just because of who they were, people willing to stoop that low need to be launched into space.

Supporting the IRA is not supporting people willing to fight for your cause, it is supporting people willing to murder for your cause.

The, hunger strikers, they imo, deserve the honour of representing your cause, they died for what they believed in, and were not a bunch of slapheads wanting to play the "ethnic cleansing" game.

I dont disagree that you should be able to walk anywhere and not be attacked, but supporting these people on either side causes this, the british army has never allied itself with any of the unionist factions.

Bloody Sunday was a dark event, i hope that british troopers, troopers from 4 different cultures conduct themsleves in a manner that is an example to the rest of the world, let alone europe, unfortunately this was not the case. However those troopers were punished, there was no "Hey man, way to kill all those civilians" about it, they went to prison, secondly as a small excuse, they were shooing rioters, in a riot started from weapons supplied by the IRA. The IRA on the other hand kill civilains, Deliberately, and clap themselves on the back whenever they do so, that sounds like terrorism to me.

Lastly, Nanor, northern ireland is as much your country as it is mine, your attacks have bankrupted it and made it poor. I say it is not our (You and me) country as we do not live there, i would agree, it was your ancient ancestors country, but what do they need it for? It belongs to the people living in it and they, and only they should have a say in the future of the country

 

[Nanor]

Firstly, the IRA are a terrorist organisation

Yes, I got it mixed up. Terrorism is defined as an army not sponsored by a state, not a government which I thought.

Bloody sunday was a dark event. In fact, dark doesn't begin to describe it..
It was a peaceful protest for civil rights. They marched through Derry for Civil Rights. That's right, less than half a century ago, people had to protest for civil rights! Then the British Troopers come along, and this happens.

Sure they went to jail, but you must understand that has happened everywhere, and they still go unpunished! My dad, was driving home one day, when the army stopped him and asked him for his liscence, he handed them his liscence, with is adress and name etc. in Irish. They said to him "Didn't know there were any Irish places in Armagh..." and he replied "Well now you know". They took him out of the car, and they beat the crap clean out of him, they absolutley broke him. Why? Because his address was in Irish! And you wonder why we possibly despise being part of your empire? You wonder why we fight so hard for freedom?

And they were not shooting rioters, they shot unarmed civilians. Here's an extract from how some of them died:

Jackie Duddy (17). Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Four witnesses stated Duddy was unarmed and running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Three of them saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran.

and

Bernard McGuigan (41). Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions.

.

the british army has never allied itself with any of the unionist factions.

Heh, bulls**t. When Unionists resisted Home Rule, around the time of the First world War, they imported arms from Germany, the British Army do nothing to stop them, they let them walk on by. This is known as the "Larne Gun Running". When Nationalists imported arms, they were stopped, and shot.

The IRA on the other hand kill civilains, Deliberately, and clap themselves on the back whenever they do so, that sounds like terrorism to me.

Then that would classify the majority of British Soldiers at that time as terrorists.

i would agree, it was your ancient ancestors country, but what do they need it for?

Scenario:
A large family of Travellers comes and parks in your garden, they trample all over it, they destroy your prize flowers, and cause lots of damage. But what do you need it for? They live there now..

And to your last statement, I do not recognise "Northern" Ireland as a country, so you're wrong in saying it's my country. It's not a country.


Put this into perspective. Say Nazi Germany had been successful and had taken over Britian, and you at this moment in time where under German Occupation. How hard would you fight to get your country back, to get the raping, pillaging invaders out of your country? I would give my life, and I'm sure you would to. You must understand, it's our country, regardless of who lives there now. It's ours, always has been and we're just waiting until you clear off and let us get on with our lives.

 

[Loki]

Put this into perspective. Say Nazi Germany had been successful and had taken over Britian, and you at this moment in time where under German Occupation. How hard would you fight to get your country back, to get the raping, pillaging invaders out of your country? I would give my life, and I'm sure you would to. You must understand, it's our country, regardless of who lives there now. It's ours, always has been and we're just waiting until you clear off and let us get on with our lives.

The only problem i have with this statement, is the one that is true for all occupations. At what point do people lose claim to land that they, or their ancestors inhabited?

Prior to the "invasion" of the Ulster Scots, the vikings used Ireland as a slave trading country. This effectively mixed bloodlines from most of europe within a single place. Prior to them the celts, prior to them the picts, prior to them mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Who or what has any claim over any land, when we consider that we are all invaders or the ancestors of successful invaders.

In my opinion we have to think less of how "proud" we are of our nation, and a lot less of the clod of dirt upon which we inhabit, and more of the people around us.

One final point. Any individual, or group that uses violence on non-combatants as a means of political, social or religious gain is a terrorist. This applies to individuals in political parties, British army, IRA, UDA, UVF, UFF, etc etc. Their actions should be even more sickening when shaded by organised crime. Do not defend these people as freedom fighters, for they most certainly not defending you. You only have to glance at the backgrounds of Andre Shukri (loyalist) and "slab" Murphy (nationalist) to see their true identies.