Parents, University and Capitalism

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
Just reading an article over at BBC News, titled "Pushy parents can act as agents". The basic thrust of it is that there is a rise of what they call "helicopter parents" who continue to direct their children as though they are still children even though they're 17/18 and leaving home.

Now, sure, when I was 18 I didn't have a clue. I could cook and do my own laundry and that sort of thing but I had no understanding of financial management, negotiation, or how to learn if it wasn't spoon fed to me in a scheduled set of classes that would cover everything I needed to know in a coherent picture. I also had no idea what I was going to do after University and thus turn a degree into something that was worth the thousands of pounds it cost to get.

But I chose my courses independently (though guided by some course selection questionnaire we filled in at school) and only got bawled out once for not spending my summer before I went to Uni doing background reading on my course (which, when it comes to it, wasn't asked for anywhere so how would I have know that this was something one might do?). I did two separate courses and eventually dropped out because neither were what I wanted to do and, instead, I found I had an interest and competence in IT... but without all the experience of having to make things work at Uni (and screwing it up on a fair few occasions) I would still be absolutely clueless.

So isn't that the situation that these parents are creating? Clueless children incapable of living on their own because they aren't allowed to find their feet, learn from their mistakes and build their own future.

And yet, in an increasingly consumerist and capitalist world, a degree is a commercial transaction; it's essentially a three to five year training course to give you qualifications that allow you to get a better job. And it's expensive, even more so these days! So, one starts to look at it as a cost-value problem; a three year degree might create £15K of debt over that period to cover costs and living expenses, but starting salaries might be £18K rather than £12K. Does the transaction make sense? Well, you can go figure that but at least one financial analysis suggests you can earn more money by going into employment immediately from school than you can from the increased starting salary given by the average degree. I'm careful to use "average" there because, clearly, training in medicine or dentistry or whatever requires the undergraduate degree course and there's just no way around that.

But seriously, shouldn't we be letting children stand on their own two feet even if they get things wrong sometimes? When did the life experience that is leaving home, practically epitomised by going to University, become less valuable than the commercial value of degrees?
 

thatbloke

Junior Administrator
One phrase that will always stay with me is that "it's ok to make a mistake, as long as you don't make the same one twice."

I made a number of mistakes while at university but it is these experiences that shape who you are as a person and these kind of experiences that you learn the most from.

If some people are being deprived of these experiences then that will deprive them of what are very valuable learning experiences and will make them, in my opinion, much worse off for it.

With regards to the value of this experience? Priceless.
 

VibroAxe

Junior Administrator
I'm continually annoyed and perplexed by the cotton wool of society, kids can't get mucky and dirty, they might hurt themselves, don't make a mistake etc...

I am a great believer of learning from experiences, as for the value, seconded, priceless
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
You don't need Uni to learn the real world(tm) - a full time job pretty much anywhere will have similar effect. I do kinda wish I'd gone though.

The parents mollycoddling their adult kids I actually find amusing. Maybe I'm twisted.. I had this mental image of society becoming this place where everyone lives with their parents until 50+. And I chuckled a little.

As for student loans.. not sure if you're complaining about them? But I think they're fair. No interest to pay.. and monthly amounts deducted only when you earn over a certain bracket. Trust me a lot of people would give blood or even limbs for that kind of loan.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
You don't need Uni to learn the real world(tm)

Absolutely. Though I felt it was a careful lead-in to stuff that happens IRL, if you will. A sort of step between "at home" and "out there fending for yourself". My school taught me almost nothing that would make it possible for me to run my own house, for example, but at Uni everyone else was in the same boat so we all learned together, in a way.

As for student loans.. not sure if you're complaining about them? But I think they're fair. No interest to pay.. and monthly amounts deducted only when you earn over a certain bracket.

Not complaining, per se, but commenting on the odd situation where you build up debt in the hopes of earning more later.

However, in my case my student loan did have interest and while I could defer 'til I was in a position to pay it and the interest rate was very very low it was still there. I think I left Uni with around £7K of debt after just over two years, though only £3.5K of that was actually student loan.
 

Macca

Member
The great thing about living in Scotland is that the Government pay for my Uni fee's. I think it comes down to personal choice. I've always felt that I would prefer Uni to a proper job any day. It's a completely different lifestyle, and something I enjoy more than I think I would if I just went straight into a full time job.

I also like the fact that I'm learning a hell of a lot on a specialised subject that I'm interested in, instead of say going into a job I didn't really like to begin with, however I'd be making more money. As it turns out I will make more money than If I dived into full time employment, however even If I didn't I think I would still chose to go to uni.

As for the parents forcing their children into stuff, I can't really comment on it. My parents were very much for me making my own choice of what course I wanted to do, and most of my friends are the same. The one thing I will say is that they were very adamant that I studied and done well when I was at school. Sure it was very very annoying sometimes when I would have to say: "Na, I can't come out tonight, I have to study, my mum's moaning at me etc etc". However I can honestly say now that I am thankful that they done that, so that I did have a very broad choice of what course I could chose.
 

waterproofbob

Junior Administrator
I wish now that someone had suggested to me that there was any other option after school other than uni. For those of you that don't know I have just left with pretty much nothing in way of a qualification from uni. It was a tough decision but I'll see in time if it is the right one to make.

It was never an option for me not to go to uni. Not so much as a pressure from parents or whatever, more from my school. We all did A-levels and went to uni and that was the norm. I've now just secured myself a job in a local Apple store doing essentially tech support and repair for thems wealthy enough to afford one.

The comment in my second interview from the head of the genius team that my CV was nice and full and that I myself without qualification came across as I did was amazingly satisfying. There is way too much pressure on ppl to go to uni and way too much pressure from parents (Not mine, they have been immense in every way).

I think more should be taught in school about how life works, basic stuff. How debt works how tax works. How to function in the real world. Academia is great but not for everyone. I'm relatively intelligent. I have 4 good A-levels and I wish someone had sat me down and asked if I really wanted to go down the plan I had defaulted to at 18.


My advice to any people here who are considering uni or looking at their futures at 18 to have a think not about what they want to do as that is somet that is impossible to tell at 17 but think about what makes you happy and what makes you shine. If someone had said that to me seriously at 17, I may well have done things differently. I loved my time at uni and have met some cracking ppl while there, including being introduced to you filthy bunch.


It's a shame ppl feel forced into these decisions and any parent that forces their child in that way should be slapped.
 

DocBot

Administrator
Staff member
My parents "encouraged" me to get my own apt when I was 19. A year later I moved to Ireland, and that definitely taught me to fend for myself, since my parents weren't exactly anywhere near to help out with stuff. I also think that it's good to do something other than study before going to uni, to get a sense of what "real" life is like, before you decide what you want to do with the rest of yours...
 

Bradstreet

In Cryo Sleep
From the other side of the fence (as an academic) I find this increasingly irritating. At Open Days I do everything I can to talk to the would-be students, but instead face a barrage of tick-list questions cribbed from some Sunday newspaper by the parents. They're picky about accommodation, and I know student rooms used to be really bad, but I also have a kind of sentimental feeling that living in a shoebox and sharing a dirt-covered kitchen are important parts of the experience, and a definite part of the learning about real life that Ronin Storm suggests.

But I don't think it's just the parents (here we go with 'young people nowadays'...). More and more students are focussed on what they're getting for their money or what will be useful in future, in a way that I find really sad because it stops them making unexpected discoveries or even discovering a genuine thirst for knowledge and intellectual stimulation. And I think students (though this is entirely anecdotal) are much more anxious and stressed than they used to be, because it's become all about getting a degree that's value for their investment, and not about having a great time. Sure I think the academic side is important (otherwise I'd be out of a job!), but I think it is only one part of what people should get out of University, and the capitalist ethos drives both parents and students to ignore the other great things (sex, drugs, rock n' roll, etc) that they should be learning about.
 

DocBot

Administrator
Staff member
Hey, I did the shoebox thing in Cork, although it was of the moldy, things-dying-in-the-walls, big-mushroom-growing-in-the-kitchen variety. I prefer my current living standards, thank you very much. About the stress levels - I wouldn't know how it is "over there", but yes, to a certain extent this is certainly how it is here in Sweden. For some educations, at least. For others, not so much. Bearing in mind that uni is free here (for everyone; I guess I should be happy most courses are in swedish or the competition would be fierce(r)), so the only reason for this I can see is that the competition for qualified jobs is bigger - meaning you have to do better to be able to adequately compete for the jobs (not applicable for my own education, of course, here it's just the matter of passing it - not how _well_ you pass it. And I'm guaranteed work afterwards, just not necessarily in commutable range).

Re the "new" focus - I know a fair few academics who did study for the general knowledge, and what have they ended up with? Well, two or three are on their way to PhD's but most just have huge student loans (yes, enrollment is free but there are still living costs), and jobs that have nothing to do with what they studied for several years. Not that any of them regret their choices, of course, but I can certainly see why most people think about what all that time and effort will get them in the end.

(and let's not forget curriculum overload - that tends to diminish the amount of the previously mentioned sins being committed)

p.s. When I'm done I will have studied for 6.5 years. Yes, I will get a substantial paycheck, but it is not a very economical choice, if you take into consideration that's 6.5 years of loans instead of income. but I don't think I would do this if there was not that substantial check in the end - I'm getting tired of being piss poor. d.s.

p.p.s. Sorry for the total lack of structure in this post. ;D d.d.s.
 

Taffy

New Member
I think that often the problem is pushy schools. At my school, we've suffered from endless assemblies from uni lecturers, and a constant barrage of pressure involving the term 'UCAS'.

This is good in limited doses; we need to be informed about the options open to us at uni. But I know nothing of the job market, apart from a good knowledge of the jobs open to me in the military (although this was down entirely to my own research). In a word, that is crap on the behalf of my school. Those who want to go to uni are encouraged, those who don't know are pressured to go and those who don't want to go are totally ignored. And i'm not even exagerrating. I suggested to my head of sixth form that I might not go to uni and get a job instead. Did he suggest a few? Did he offer me help finding a suitable career? No. He told me to stop being stupid.

This is a major problem. The more kids who go to uni, the more drop-outs there will be, and the more people will have degrees. These graduates will flood the market, reducing the value of a degree, and forcing employers to effectively shut the door on non-graduates. Speaking in extremes, we could end up with A-Level students going on to be dustbin men.
 
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