Philosophy 102 - Vision and Critical Mass

Zooggy

Junior Administrator
Staff member
Hello, all, :)

Now that we know who we are, it's a good time to think about where we want to go.

Disclaimer: as before, this is my own vision. Although the officers have weighed in on the contents of this post, it still reflects my own opinion. As such, it does not constitute guild policy.

Disclaimer 2: this post is even longer that the Philosophy 101 post.

Introduction - A Grand Vision

My vision for The Haven is for us to be the guild with the best overall reputation on Scarshield Legion.

I don't see us the best PvE progression guild on the server and I don't see us as the most feared PvP guild, either. I don't see us as the largest community guild or the most tight-knit group of friends, and I don't see us as the boldest RP guild, either. But, I do see us as a known and respected guild in each of those areas.

Strategy literature calls this kind of grand, sweeping statement a BHAG, short for Big, Hairy, Ambitious Goal.

BHAGs have no meaning without some sort of plan behind them. While a full plan is beyond the scope of this post (way beyond, in fact), it is, nonetheless worth considering the direction we might take along each of those aspects.

Community

The Haven as a community guild is already well liked and respected throughout the server. I know this because I've been told so many, many times, both by people in the guild and people outside the guild:
  • People that apply to the guild for its community keep saying talking about our reputation. Sure, you might think it to be lip service so that they get in, but then, why the hell would they be applying in the first place? :)
  • People that have left the guild always talk to me in a nostalgic, almost homesick tone about their times with us.
  • People that have never been in the guild have often said so as well. (One instance stuck in my mind, when I was levelling Zooggy to 80. I asked a guy to tank an instance for me. His reply: "I'd love to, especially considering your guild tag, but unfortunately, I'm logging out in a few minutes. Let me add you to Friends, though, and maybe I can do it some other time." This moved me, perhaps more than it should, but hey...)

(That's not to say that things are always rosy. In a decently healthy community guild of any decent size, conflict and drama are bound to crop up, every once in a while. What sets us apart is not how we avoid or deny it, but how we embrace it and choose to deal with it. Expect a post about just this issue soonish...)

As guild counselor, I feel that this is the aspect of the guild over which I have the most responsibility, though, and as such, I don't just want to rest on our laurels.

So, here are my criteria and goals for what a healthy community guild looks like:
  • You feel at home here. You don't have to like everyone here, but you have to like being here.
  • You like to level your character here, whether that be your tenth alt or your very first character, when you're new to the game.
  • You can set stuff up with your guild mates. You can't expect people to turn out en masse for your things, but if you take initiative, people have to take notice.
  • You can ask for help. Again, you can't expect people to jump through hoops for you, but if you're reasonable and patient, help has to come, eventually.
  • You can feel comfortable recommending the guild to anyone and everyone. They may not like us or we may not like them, but we can't be afraid of what other people might think of us should they get in.
  • You can expect to be respected. You can't expect that everything turns out the way you want it to, but when issues crop up, you absolutely must feel that your side was fully understood.

Some of these are more obvious than the others, but all in all, we're on a good path regarding these issues, I feel. :)

Raiding

The Haven is not and hopefuly will never be a hard core raiding guild. However, we do raid, and we are rather serious about our raiding.

Now, when talking about goals, I could start to wax poetic about ten-man and twenty-five-man and Ulduar and whatnot, and most if not all of you would understand me.

Grantedly, those are exactly the sort of goals our raiding group needs to be thinking about right now. However, as far as long-term BHAGs go, it would all be incredibly short-sighted.

What I want is for The Haven to maintain a core raiding group that can withstand the test of time, rising to the challenge of each new expansion and each new Blizzard blunder with flare and gusto.

If the next expansion calls for 60-man groups, we'll build that up. If the expansion after it calls for 15-man groups, we'll either dial it down or organize 4x15 raiding nights.

If the group goes through growing pains, I want us to deal with it, with fairness and directed purpose in mind.

And, I want the raiding group to have succeeded in overcoming every single raiding challenge put before us, by the time the next expansion rolls around.

Hardest of all, I want for the raiding group to achieve all of this while not overwhelming other guild activities, like PvP or RP. (See below for more on that.)

Of course, that's what I want for the raiding group itself, but here is how that affects our reputation:
  • I want people to level characters in The Haven, because we're fun to level with, but also, because they want to know us as people, with an eye towards becoming a raider, at max level.
  • I want max level people to apply for a Haven raiding spot because our raids are well organized and fun, without being anal or over-demanding.
  • I want people to know that, while we might not be the first to get there, we will get there, sooner or later.

We were very much there during TBC, and while things may have gotten a bit... interesting, lately ;), there's absolutely no reason we can't get there again.

PvP

The Haven has quite the reputation, PvP wise, it seems, though I have no idea what the state of things is, nowadays.

As a devoted non-PvPer, I am perhaps, not the best person to be talking about vision and goals for PvP, and yet, here I am doing it. :)

Regarding world PvP, there's good reputation and bad reputation. There's guilds out there that have a rep for being griefers, corpse campers and summoning stone gankers, and there's guilds out there with the reputation for being fair, but worthy opponents. I want us to be the second kind, and I think we are.

Regarding battlegrounds, I want hoardies to be happy when the see <The Haven> in the battleground, and I want allies to go, "oh crap, gonna have to bring my best game" when they see it. Never having been in a battleground myself (ever), I have no idea if that happens or not. :)

Regarding arenas, I have no idea how that whole deal works, but I like to think that Haven arena teams are out there and doing well.

I also miss events like PvP Wednesday or the drive to win the Sunday fishing contest.

In any case, again, it's not about being the most feared PvP guild out there, but it is about being recognized and respected.

RP

There's a few of people in the guild that move about in Scarshield Legion's RP circles. I believe there's even a couple of people that are well known in those circles.

Unfortunately, I'm not one of them, and I don't think I ever will be. As such, I have no idea what's going on there.

Still, while The Haven is not and never will be an RP guild, I believe it would be feasible for a few of us to participate in a few more events than we do.

Back when I was level 65 or 68 or something, there was a server-wide ball in Silvermoon city. I remember being a bit more excited about it than I expected, coming in.

And I remember being utterly disappointed.

I had two, maybe three in-character conversations, each lasting no more than five minutes or so. I had more fun listening to the ongoing Kara raid on TS than I did with the ball itself.

(I'm told that this is because there is simply no support in WoW for mass RP, but that's beside the point.)

Now, I realise that being an RPer in an environment like WoW requires great amounts of dedication. Still, given my guild tag, I expected to be at least acknowledged.

And really, that's all I want from the guild. I want the serious RPers out there to look at our guild tag and know that we may or may not be RPers, but we:
  • understand the concept
  • respect the concept
  • won't disrupt ongoing RP
  • might even want to participate, even if just for a bit

Of course, more than just wanting them to know that, I want it to actually be true! :) But I think it already is, at least in large part.

Hell, my very first big thing in The Haven was an RP thing, namely, the whole Saharah and Teufel thing. Remember that? It was almost two years go. (Has it really been that long...?)

Critical Mass

Right, so what's this bit about critical mass?

Bascially, if we're going to be where I see us being, in either of the aspects above, we need numbers.

There's a sweet spot regarding guild size for any of the things above, and managing it is perhaps the most difficult part of running a guild over the long term.

In order to be a true community we need about one hundred players. About ten percent of these will be online for several hours every day, and about half will be online at least once a day and several hours a few times a week. Naturally, there is any upposer ceiling that you can't really go above. Otherwise, the guild will become fragmented and cliques will start to form, and the community will erode itself. I estimate the ceiling to be no larger than about two hundred players, and it's probably lower than that.

In order to have a serious raiding group, we need about twenty to fifty percent more raiders than there are raiding spots at any give time. (Right now, that's 25, so we should have about 30 to 40 active raiders.) More important, we need the right mix of capable tanks, healers and specialty classes. As with the community aspect, there is an upper ceiling. If we have more than, say, about twice the raiders than there are raid spots, a lot of people will start to be left out consistently or too often, and the group can collapse to a point of being sub-optimal.

As I am not active in either PvP or RP, I have no idea what the size requirements are, but there may well be some as well.

These are big numbers, however, and people need to realize that, some times, they might get left out. It's important that we build up this critical mass with people that are secure and mature enough to not take that personally.

By the way, that last paragraph, I want you all to read it again. It's the one paragraph in this post that's more about you than about me. :)

In Closing

Again, this is not guild policy, nor does it constitute an official guild plan. Still, it is my vision for what The Haven already is, can be, or perhaps should become.

That's it for my BHAG. Hope you have enjoyed reading this at least half as much as I enjoyed thinking it up and writing it. And I hope you can relate to it, and on some level, even commit to it. :)

See you in Azeroth!

Cheers,
J.
 

Larul

Member
The Haven will always be my home even thou my irl friends play on another server ill always see The Haven and [THN] as my home and atleast once a week check the forum. I dont write that much but I have read close to every thread on [THN] since i jonined.I love you all and I have had a lot of fun with you guys.
Time to get a little nostalgic. The most fun i have ever had in WoW is when we were trying to get bexx her frost resist gear for ssc. We had only a few hours to get all those primals and other crap... we made it :)
Your vision is wonderfull and i stand saluted to all those in the guild that have given The Haven this posibillity to even have a vision that goes this far. I have a question thou. Aint we already the moust respected guild on the server?
I am happy to announce that Larul will be online again soon. Hopefully next month.
 

Zaggu

In Cryo Sleep
As as retired backstabbing / cursing / deathgripping / mooing member who did quite a fair bit of PVP, I can say that either the "Zagg" prefix or "The Haven" won matches. No, I did not WTFPWN the lot of them in any way, but Alliance players tended to be so hellbent on going after me as if I was some sort of trophy that many a strategic position was left unguarded.

The Guild tag did seem to work nicely with Fae, as I remember running a few Bg's with her and it was delightful not having to worry about killing things, since they always made a point of trying to rush Fae and getting blown to bits / eviscerated (whatever came first). So, I do believe that, for one reason or another, we are rather prized trophies for the Alliance.
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
As as retired backstabbing / cursing / deathgripping / mooing member who did quite a fair bit of PVP, I can say that either the "Zagg" prefix or "The Haven" won matches. No, I did not WTFPWN the lot of them in any way, but Alliance players tended to be so hellbent on going after me as if I was some sort of trophy that many a strategic position was left unguarded.

The Guild tag did seem to work nicely with Fae, as I remember running a few Bg's with her and it was delightful not having to worry about killing things, since they always made a point of trying to rush Fae and getting blown to bits / eviscerated (whatever came first). So, I do believe that, for one reason or another, we are rather prized trophies for the Alliance.

The tag and and some of the SSL veterans from back in the old day did love to challenge me a lot in there. Was great fun. Especially when they noticed that I wasn't alone :D

"It's crazy Fae! Get her before she dots us to d~crap! She has a Rogue with her!...and here come the crits and dots and we can't even move while we are getting sliced from behind"
Crazy Spriestess with DoTs of death + equally crazy Rogue sapping and slicing them up *ROFL*
Those were the days ;)
Epic win :p
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
I always saw The Haven as being the most widely liked, as opposed to respected. Respect is gained in so many different ways from different people, and collectively different guilds. We don't particularly excel at any one area, but get along well enough in all. As such there isn't much of a, "Wow! A Haven(er/ite/iser)" attitude which I've come across. However I know of very few people who dislike The Haven, or have ever complained about the conduct of it's members.

I guess that means we could be "least-hated" rather than "most-liked" - depends whether you see the glass as half-empty or half-full :p
 

Zooggy

Junior Administrator
Staff member
Ahey, :)

depends whether you see the glass as half-empty or half-full :p

You're missing the point. The glass is neither half-empty nor half-full. The glass is twice as large as it needs to be! :D

On a more serious note, I get what you're saying, even though on some levels, liked and respected are one and the same.

Here's what I'm thinking: what would most people reply to the following hypothetical poll?

Other than your own guild, which guild would you most like to belong to on Scarshield Legion?

I'd want The Haven to be the most mentioned guild in response to that.

Cheers,
J.
 

Chumpo

In Cryo Sleep
"The length of this document defends it well against the risk of its being read."
-Winston Churchill.
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Other than your own guild, which guild would you most like to belong to on Scarshield Legion?...I'd want The Haven to be the most mentioned guild in response to that.

This is my point, it wouldn't be. Not because it's a bad place to be, but because if people could pick any guild, they'd pick which one was best at whatever aspect of the game they most liked. If they were a PvP person, they'd pick a top PvP guild - which we arent; if they were a PvE person they'd pick a top PvE guild - which we aren't; etc.

The only people, I believe, who would answer, "The Haven" are those who are just looking for a place to socialise, with some occasional other aspects of gameplay. As we've assumed these hypothetical people being hypothetically polled already have guilds, unless its because they're already in one of these aforementioned "top guilds", they'll likely be in that guild because of social reasons - such as friends being in the same guild.

I would say a good 95% of the people who join The Haven are those who have been recommended to do so by friends already in the ranks. This isn't a bad thing, the guild grows through word of mouth, and it generally means as those invited are acquaintances of current members, we don't get any idiots joining and causing problems.

Still; back to my original point. Whilst The Haven is a great place to be, given it doesn't perform "the best" in any one area (with the possible exception of a "community feel") it won't ever be the most frequent answer to your hypothetical question. It's not a flaw with The Haven, it's just how things are when you have such a varied game.
 

Aliella

Member
Just a little reminder, when you become "the best" you don't stay there very long in most cases. Sooner or later you crash and burn.
 

T-Bone

In Cryo Sleep
Guys please, lets not cause a fight about this in this thread. By all means talk about it, with us if you'd like but just not here.

I am going to leave the posts as they are just now but any escalation and they will be gone quicker than the new bag of biscuits you just bought this morning.

-- Tuldur
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
Guys please, lets not cause a fight about this in this thread. By all means talk about it, with us if you'd like but just not here.

I am going to leave the posts as they are just now but any escalation and they will be gone quicker than the new bag of biscuits you just bought this morning.

-- Tuldur

I have to agree here.
Let's keep it civil.

What matters here isn't that we should strive to -be- the best.
But to -do- our best in the various fields of interest in the guild.
 
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