Zhinrak
In Cryo Sleep
With Regards to raiding its become apparent that everyone seems to have varying views on what is going on and expect different things from different people. Below is a massive wall of text that outlines some of the issues and expectations the officers have and what you guys can expect from us.
Also: Someone Sticky this
What to expect from us, the officers:
Raid Composition:
Lets get this one out the way first as it is the most touchy subject and the cause of most the recent issues. When it comes to raid composition people can expect that the officers organizing the raid (most usually Sabot) will be making the groups with the intention of creating the most successful groups for the sake of progression. Decisions on who gets to go are based on a whole variety of different variables and though we wish the decisions made were as clear cut as some people make it out to be, usually its the complete opposite. Usually a raid composition for 10 man is as follows:
2 Tanks
3 Healers
2 Meelee DPS
3 Ranged DPS
When you break it down like that, it becomes more apparent that raid slots are very limited, and choosing who fills them is not always based on who can necessarily fill the role best. The composition also needs to potentially take the following into account:
-What De-buffs can be cleansed (All healers can do magic but not all can do Curse, Disease and poison)
-What class buffs are being provided and who they are benefiting
-Ability to re-spec, one issue we have found is that at least 2 bosses so far only require one tank, so we need a tank who also has a decent off-spec so we can accommodate the group without needless swapping in and out players.
-Player awareness
-Team work, this one is highly important. Keep in mind it is a raid 'team' and not a group of individuals, we need to have confidence that the people in the raid group can work as a team.
When it comes to raid composition we will try to keep each group consistent throughout the raiding week. Who ever ends up in the group on a Thursday will be first choice for the group on Friday and for any other days that there might be a continuation of that group.
Where possible we will try to get new people cycled into the raids so that as many people as possible get a chance to experience raiding and help the guild progress but we can not make any promises. It mainly comes down to a contradiction, that for most efficient progress ideally we want a consistent group of people each week but at the same time, being in such a large community orientated guild we want to get as many different people raiding as possible. Only having enough vital roles to form one group is making this very difficult.
Raiding times and nights:
As you all know currently our two main raiding nights are Thurs and Fri 8pm-11pm server time. We will aim to keep all of our raids 3 hours long at most but this is negotiable. This is because often we find that after 3 hours or so people begin to loose focus for a large number of reasons and the raid begins to suffer. If its nearing the end and the raid seems to be going well and there are no signs of a loss of focus we will put it to a vote whether to continue or not. If it past the official end time and people genuinely want to leave then they can.
Looting Rules:
For now the looting system we are using will remain unchanged, there seems to be no reason to change it from what it currently is, and if we deem that a change is necessary it will be discussed in depth and announced. For now the rules are as follows (with common sense thrown in of course):
Full Raider Main Spec roll off First. (Appropriate sats and Armour class for your primary spec and ranked raider)
Trial Raider Main Spec roll off second. (Appropriate sats and Armour class for your primary spec and ranked trial raider)
Off Spec roll off third. (If the item applies to your secondary spec of which you are currently using)
Spare Set. (Anyone who can use the item and wants it, but is for a spec they do not have talented as primary or secondary)
Disenchant
I see no point in mentioning anything about people using items not for their Armour class because doing so will loose them their 5% bonus and at a raiding level this should not be happening.
If a single player wins 3 or more main spec items in one raid they can not win any more main spec items unless they are uncontested. This is to ensure that not all the loot goes to one person and that there is some even distribution.
As mentioned above use some common sense and it will be fine, these looting 'rules' are more like looting guidelines and are open to interpretation but ultimately it comes down to the discretion of the raid leader. All that i ask is that in the case of an item being a side grade (for example swapping a 359 epic with another) that our raiders take into consideration other main spec users who may find the same item to be a major upgrade. In such an example no one will force you to pass, just be mindful of you fellow raiders gear status.
What we expect from you (the raiders):
Don't worry though we expect some things from raiders over all its not too much. The biggest thing we ask for from people who want to raid is patience. Pure and simple. As hopefully already illustrated, creating a raid group is a lot more complicated than many people realize, and anyone who has ever tried to organize a raid group will know, its not easy. It becomes a difficult task of pleasing everyone, and more often it become a difficult decision of 'who do we leave out?' as opposed to 'who do we bring in?'.
Importantly if you are left out of the group, do not take it personally! We are are all human and I can sympathies how people feel, no one likes being left out, no one enjoys being told to leave a raid and what you have to remember is that those of us organizing the raids hate it almost as much as you will, in some cases more so.
It is for this reason that we ask that if you do not make it into a raid that we are not asked to validate why unless you feel that there is a real cause for concern. When you have upwards of 20 or people signed up for a raid and there are only enough tanks or healers to make one group, that means we have 10+ people who are disappointed. As already mentioned we honestly wish that this was not the case. Ideally we would have everyone raiding but we do not want to have to spend the time telling 10 or so people why they did not get into the raid, especially when the decision or reasoning behind it often is not a simple one and very rarely is a reason to do with the individuals in question. If you feel you are unfairly being left out and that it truly is for an unreasonable reason then please do bring your concerns to us, we just ask that you put some thought into your concerns before assuming the worst.
Gearing, Consumables and PuG Raiding:
In terms of what gear level we expect of raiders, ideally we want people to aim for around an item level of 345 minimum, for vital roles like tanks and healers this becomes a requirement more than a suggestion. This is not a hard level to achieve, I know most people will have more than this, just continue to do heroics and look to rep factions and crafting professions for epics, we have max level tailors, blacksmiths and leather workers in the guild all of whom are more than willing to make you the gear if they can get the materials. For those who may be unaware there is an in game function using the guild roster to see who can make what, make use of it.
When it comes to consumables we ask that where possible people ensure they can bring as much as they can. Until we get the fishing achievement we have no 90 stat feast, and even when we get that it should not be an expectation that there will be some around so having one (preferably two) stacks of your own buff food will help and is expected. Similarly with flasks and potions we ask that people bring their own if possible, usually 3-4 flasks per raid. In relation to mana and health potions it is strongly advised that healers have at least a stack of mana pots per raid, similar for tanks with health potions. If you need them though there are no issues with people using the stock we have from the guild bank, just keep in mind that this supply is often very limited and usually relies on the good will of our alchemists (whom we thank dearly of course).
Our policy on PuG raiding has not changed. We simply ask that all trial raiders and above refrain from attending pug raids until after Friday night so that if you are needed for progression raids you are available (this also includes Baradin Hold). If you know you will be unable to raid on a raiding night for what ever reason and want to PuG before those nights it usually will be fine, just ask an officer to make sure before hand. After Fridays, unless it is expressly stated and until we can get groups on Mondays and Tuesdays working, people are allowed to; and in fact encouraged to, pug raid if they get the chance, it will allow you to get some experience, see some of the fights and get more Valour points and gear.
Hopefully soon we will get a list of the raiders we have in terms of classes and specs and we will be doing our best to try and get a second raid group formed. The progression raid will still be a priority and this will not change, but we really do want to get everyone raiding so that we can get as many people who signed up into a raid as possible. When there are enough people 25 man raids will also be considered. This is not to say that they will happen, but we are definitely keeping it open as an option.
As a suggestion anyone who does not make it into a raid, are encouraged to use that time to do some guild heroic farm runs if possible.
Character Switching:
1 Main spec character per person. This rule applies to everyone from trial raider to the guild master. Each person is allowed only 1 character who they bring to the main raiding nights and unless it is officially noted that they have swapped characters any alts brought to raids for what ever reason will be treated as off spec rolls.
If someone wishes to change which character they bring to raids they are usually welcome to, though if it means loosing a healer or a tank we may require that you do not swap until we can cope at the very least.
However please do not abuse this! If we feel that people are beginning to abuse our relaxed approach to swapping characters it will become far less relaxed. We have seen it in the past where players swap mains the second they have all the gear they want and often do this multiple times. This will not be tolerated.
If you want to change your main because you no longer enjoy playing your current character this is fine. Most character swaps will be dealt with on a case by case basis, we just ask that people be reasonable about it.
TL : DR
We will be doing our best to get everyone into raiding while at the same time maintaining a high level of progression, but achieving this with 30 people signing up for 10 slots is a challenge, be patient.
Raiders should try their best to gear up their main characters as much as possible and bring buff food and flasks of their own if able to. To this extent we also highly encourage raiders try to PuG if they do not make it into the raid that week.
The main goal for us over the next month is to get a second 10 man raid group going or perhaps even aim for a 25 man. We will try to keep everyone updated as to the progress of this.
Until then please check this roster:
http://games.thehavennet.org.uk/showthread.php?t=16577
If you are ranked trial raider or above make sure that your appropriate character is on there and listed properly, if possible keep the Item level of your main spec up to date, i have given permission for anyone to edit the document please do not abuse this.
Any Questions, Concerns or Comments feel free to post them here. Just remember to keep it constructive. If you have a concern you feel would be better dealt with in private send myself or any of the other officers you feel comfortable with a private message on the forums or whisper me in game.
Also: Someone Sticky this
What to expect from us, the officers:
Raid Composition:
Lets get this one out the way first as it is the most touchy subject and the cause of most the recent issues. When it comes to raid composition people can expect that the officers organizing the raid (most usually Sabot) will be making the groups with the intention of creating the most successful groups for the sake of progression. Decisions on who gets to go are based on a whole variety of different variables and though we wish the decisions made were as clear cut as some people make it out to be, usually its the complete opposite. Usually a raid composition for 10 man is as follows:
2 Tanks
3 Healers
2 Meelee DPS
3 Ranged DPS
When you break it down like that, it becomes more apparent that raid slots are very limited, and choosing who fills them is not always based on who can necessarily fill the role best. The composition also needs to potentially take the following into account:
-What De-buffs can be cleansed (All healers can do magic but not all can do Curse, Disease and poison)
-What class buffs are being provided and who they are benefiting
-Ability to re-spec, one issue we have found is that at least 2 bosses so far only require one tank, so we need a tank who also has a decent off-spec so we can accommodate the group without needless swapping in and out players.
-Player awareness
-Team work, this one is highly important. Keep in mind it is a raid 'team' and not a group of individuals, we need to have confidence that the people in the raid group can work as a team.
When it comes to raid composition we will try to keep each group consistent throughout the raiding week. Who ever ends up in the group on a Thursday will be first choice for the group on Friday and for any other days that there might be a continuation of that group.
Where possible we will try to get new people cycled into the raids so that as many people as possible get a chance to experience raiding and help the guild progress but we can not make any promises. It mainly comes down to a contradiction, that for most efficient progress ideally we want a consistent group of people each week but at the same time, being in such a large community orientated guild we want to get as many different people raiding as possible. Only having enough vital roles to form one group is making this very difficult.
Raiding times and nights:
As you all know currently our two main raiding nights are Thurs and Fri 8pm-11pm server time. We will aim to keep all of our raids 3 hours long at most but this is negotiable. This is because often we find that after 3 hours or so people begin to loose focus for a large number of reasons and the raid begins to suffer. If its nearing the end and the raid seems to be going well and there are no signs of a loss of focus we will put it to a vote whether to continue or not. If it past the official end time and people genuinely want to leave then they can.
Looting Rules:
For now the looting system we are using will remain unchanged, there seems to be no reason to change it from what it currently is, and if we deem that a change is necessary it will be discussed in depth and announced. For now the rules are as follows (with common sense thrown in of course):
Full Raider Main Spec roll off First. (Appropriate sats and Armour class for your primary spec and ranked raider)
Trial Raider Main Spec roll off second. (Appropriate sats and Armour class for your primary spec and ranked trial raider)
Off Spec roll off third. (If the item applies to your secondary spec of which you are currently using)
Spare Set. (Anyone who can use the item and wants it, but is for a spec they do not have talented as primary or secondary)
Disenchant
I see no point in mentioning anything about people using items not for their Armour class because doing so will loose them their 5% bonus and at a raiding level this should not be happening.
If a single player wins 3 or more main spec items in one raid they can not win any more main spec items unless they are uncontested. This is to ensure that not all the loot goes to one person and that there is some even distribution.
As mentioned above use some common sense and it will be fine, these looting 'rules' are more like looting guidelines and are open to interpretation but ultimately it comes down to the discretion of the raid leader. All that i ask is that in the case of an item being a side grade (for example swapping a 359 epic with another) that our raiders take into consideration other main spec users who may find the same item to be a major upgrade. In such an example no one will force you to pass, just be mindful of you fellow raiders gear status.
What we expect from you (the raiders):
Don't worry though we expect some things from raiders over all its not too much. The biggest thing we ask for from people who want to raid is patience. Pure and simple. As hopefully already illustrated, creating a raid group is a lot more complicated than many people realize, and anyone who has ever tried to organize a raid group will know, its not easy. It becomes a difficult task of pleasing everyone, and more often it become a difficult decision of 'who do we leave out?' as opposed to 'who do we bring in?'.
Importantly if you are left out of the group, do not take it personally! We are are all human and I can sympathies how people feel, no one likes being left out, no one enjoys being told to leave a raid and what you have to remember is that those of us organizing the raids hate it almost as much as you will, in some cases more so.
It is for this reason that we ask that if you do not make it into a raid that we are not asked to validate why unless you feel that there is a real cause for concern. When you have upwards of 20 or people signed up for a raid and there are only enough tanks or healers to make one group, that means we have 10+ people who are disappointed. As already mentioned we honestly wish that this was not the case. Ideally we would have everyone raiding but we do not want to have to spend the time telling 10 or so people why they did not get into the raid, especially when the decision or reasoning behind it often is not a simple one and very rarely is a reason to do with the individuals in question. If you feel you are unfairly being left out and that it truly is for an unreasonable reason then please do bring your concerns to us, we just ask that you put some thought into your concerns before assuming the worst.
Gearing, Consumables and PuG Raiding:
In terms of what gear level we expect of raiders, ideally we want people to aim for around an item level of 345 minimum, for vital roles like tanks and healers this becomes a requirement more than a suggestion. This is not a hard level to achieve, I know most people will have more than this, just continue to do heroics and look to rep factions and crafting professions for epics, we have max level tailors, blacksmiths and leather workers in the guild all of whom are more than willing to make you the gear if they can get the materials. For those who may be unaware there is an in game function using the guild roster to see who can make what, make use of it.
When it comes to consumables we ask that where possible people ensure they can bring as much as they can. Until we get the fishing achievement we have no 90 stat feast, and even when we get that it should not be an expectation that there will be some around so having one (preferably two) stacks of your own buff food will help and is expected. Similarly with flasks and potions we ask that people bring their own if possible, usually 3-4 flasks per raid. In relation to mana and health potions it is strongly advised that healers have at least a stack of mana pots per raid, similar for tanks with health potions. If you need them though there are no issues with people using the stock we have from the guild bank, just keep in mind that this supply is often very limited and usually relies on the good will of our alchemists (whom we thank dearly of course).
Our policy on PuG raiding has not changed. We simply ask that all trial raiders and above refrain from attending pug raids until after Friday night so that if you are needed for progression raids you are available (this also includes Baradin Hold). If you know you will be unable to raid on a raiding night for what ever reason and want to PuG before those nights it usually will be fine, just ask an officer to make sure before hand. After Fridays, unless it is expressly stated and until we can get groups on Mondays and Tuesdays working, people are allowed to; and in fact encouraged to, pug raid if they get the chance, it will allow you to get some experience, see some of the fights and get more Valour points and gear.
Hopefully soon we will get a list of the raiders we have in terms of classes and specs and we will be doing our best to try and get a second raid group formed. The progression raid will still be a priority and this will not change, but we really do want to get everyone raiding so that we can get as many people who signed up into a raid as possible. When there are enough people 25 man raids will also be considered. This is not to say that they will happen, but we are definitely keeping it open as an option.
As a suggestion anyone who does not make it into a raid, are encouraged to use that time to do some guild heroic farm runs if possible.
Character Switching:
1 Main spec character per person. This rule applies to everyone from trial raider to the guild master. Each person is allowed only 1 character who they bring to the main raiding nights and unless it is officially noted that they have swapped characters any alts brought to raids for what ever reason will be treated as off spec rolls.
If someone wishes to change which character they bring to raids they are usually welcome to, though if it means loosing a healer or a tank we may require that you do not swap until we can cope at the very least.
However please do not abuse this! If we feel that people are beginning to abuse our relaxed approach to swapping characters it will become far less relaxed. We have seen it in the past where players swap mains the second they have all the gear they want and often do this multiple times. This will not be tolerated.
If you want to change your main because you no longer enjoy playing your current character this is fine. Most character swaps will be dealt with on a case by case basis, we just ask that people be reasonable about it.
TL : DR
We will be doing our best to get everyone into raiding while at the same time maintaining a high level of progression, but achieving this with 30 people signing up for 10 slots is a challenge, be patient.
Raiders should try their best to gear up their main characters as much as possible and bring buff food and flasks of their own if able to. To this extent we also highly encourage raiders try to PuG if they do not make it into the raid that week.
The main goal for us over the next month is to get a second 10 man raid group going or perhaps even aim for a 25 man. We will try to keep everyone updated as to the progress of this.
Until then please check this roster:
http://games.thehavennet.org.uk/showthread.php?t=16577
If you are ranked trial raider or above make sure that your appropriate character is on there and listed properly, if possible keep the Item level of your main spec up to date, i have given permission for anyone to edit the document please do not abuse this.
Any Questions, Concerns or Comments feel free to post them here. Just remember to keep it constructive. If you have a concern you feel would be better dealt with in private send myself or any of the other officers you feel comfortable with a private message on the forums or whisper me in game.
