Realism in games?

Nanor

Well-Known Member
Realism:
A depiction of existence as it appears, without euphemism or evasion; evokes the idea that the things or occurrence that are portrayed may actually exist. A key component of naturalist writing.

Realism has sparked the idea in many peoples heads, "Hey, wouldn't this be cool, if it was actually realistic". Such ideas have given birth to things like Project Reality etc.

But, do we really want realism in our games? Is there a certain amount of realism in games that we can have? For instance, if EA made BF2 as realistic as the war in Iraq, it would most likely involve sitting around in tents, doing drills, cleaning weapons etc.
Ya, so people are going to moan about that, "This is too boring *quit*". You'll agree that's too much realism. So, let's tone it down a bit. PKM for instance, let's face it, a fully automatic weapon, firing hundreds of rounds per minute, would most likely come out trumps in all instances. So, still too much realism.

So I ask the question, how realistic should we put games, so it's fun and realistic?
 

Gopha

In Cryo Sleep
Nanor said:
Realism:
A depiction of existence as it appears, without euphemism or evasion; evokes the idea that the things or occurrence that are portrayed may actually exist. A key component of naturalist writing.

Realism has sparked the idea in many peoples heads, "Hey, wouldn't this be cool, if it was actually realistic". Such ideas have given birth to things like Project Reality etc.

But, do we really want realism in our games? Is there a certain amount of realism in games that we can have?
So I ask the question, how realistic should we put games, so it's fun and realistic?


I personally believe that games should be something we cna relate to but still have that unbelievable edge to them, so that its not disappointing and boring
 

BiG D

Administrator
Staff member
Nanor said:
PKM for instance, let's face it, a fully automatic weapon, firing hundreds of rounds per minute, would most likely come out trumps in all instances. So, still too much realism.
So why isn't every single soldier equiped with one in real wars?
 

Nanor

Well-Known Member
BiG D said:
So why isn't every single soldier equiped with one in real wars?

Because, people with important jobs to play that involve carrying heavy things can't carry a PKM as well. And it would be foolish to equip an entire army with one weapon. If something goes wrong with it, you've got no weapons.
 

BiG D

Administrator
Staff member
Nanor said:
Because, people with important jobs to play that involve carrying heavy things can't carry a PKM as well. And it would be foolish to equip an entire army with one weapon. If something goes wrong with it, you've got no weapons.
So if the game is realistic, that's exactly why it doesn't happen! :D
 
F

Fi$hy

Guest
Sorry I must be confused, Nanor's saying that the PKM's ability to pwn all is realistic, and you're then saying that the game is therefore realistic?

Realistic in what sense? that if you pick the PKM it's got an advantage, or realistic in that not all players choose PKM's ??
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
Nanor said:
PKM for instance, let's face it, a fully automatic weapon, firing hundreds of rounds per minute, would most likely come out trumps in all instances.

Unfortunate example. Guns are tools to achieve tasks. Some guns work sometimes and not others. No gun trumps all, just like no DIY tool does it all. :)
 

Nanor

Well-Known Member
Ofcourse it won't take out all guns, but it's a powerful weapon and can easily take down enemies, making it very powerful.
 
F

Fi$hy

Guest
now by taking this argument and turning it on its head, we find the largest flaw with Nanor's argument:

IRL and in BF2 the PKM should win out in some situations, for example at 100m with no cover, then yes PKM FTW! both in real life and in BF2

However, imagine yourself in a claustraphobic hole, suddenly you come across an enemy holding a pistol, you are both not aiming at each other, to aim would require movement.....

Victor:
In real life, the guy with the pistol, the PKM is far too large for CQB, you wouldn't be able to move the gun round in time

In Battlefield 2 : The PKM wins the day.. why? because BF2 is not realistic, factors like distance to target, speed of movement, and weight and size of the weapon do not come into play

(and that's how it should be :p )
 

BiG D

Administrator
Staff member
I'm saying that if the game is realistic, not everyone can take that gun, for the very same reasons not everyone has it in a real war.
 
F

Fi$hy

Guest
Another example of this: the sword and the knife..

Myself and Nanor decided to have a duel over the eligibility of my RCON skills.

There will be two battles, one where we have to run at each other, and the other where we stand back to back and then have to stab each other.

Now, it doesn't matter how much damage your weapon will do in this instance, it's over if the opponent gets the first hit:

Nanor has a meter long broadsword, made out of iron requiring two hands to weild.

Fi$hy has a swiss army knife.

at the running battle: Nanor wins, Fi$hy is cut to pieces, he can't even get close

at the back to back. Nanor gets a swiss army knife in the back before he can even begin to swing the broadsword.

Differant weapons are for differant situations, BF2 doesn't make this distinction
 

pHatBambi

In Cryo Sleep
For me this is an underlying flaw in the the BF2 games mechanics and a constant cause of frustration.

It's caused by bad design. The support class like the AA doesn't appear to have a defining role due to the games mechanics. Their mobility crosses them into a different area that is very hard to utilise in a tactical situation.

Personally these classes should have been designed to be moveable static firing platforms. In the sense that they can be moved to an area, deployed and untilised to cut off areas/pathways from infanrty or air.

They have been improved since in the 1.22 patch but they are still bugged in my eyes due to the spray+pray and instaprone mechanics that are useful for normal infantry but are taken out of context with the support class.

Fortunately the game is forgiving in that I can still lie down infront of a man with a PKM and blast him in the face with an MP5 before I'm completely mown down.

The realism/arcade balance in BF2 is VERY good. The best out of all online shooters I've so-far played (which is why I keep coming back). We can only hope that Frontlines (new game by the DC team who designed the majority of BF2 before being fired) improves on what has been implemented in BF2.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
Going back to more general thinking on realism in games, not just BF2...

I don't believe the question should be "should games be realistic?", but actually "should game X be realistic, and if so, how much?"

Realism is a sliding scale when applied to games. Perhaps the ends of the scale of "Simulation" and "Arcade" or something similiar?

At the simulation end of the scale, you are attempting to emulate reality in every respect.

At the arcade end of the scale, you are only interested in entertainment.

Games commonly sit somewhere in the middle regions of this scale. Pure simulations can be tedious, heavyweight affairs, requiring weeks of training (just as in real life) and even then suffer from their controls or visualisations -- after all, a monitor, keyboard and mouse, plus perhaps a joystick, can only go so far to emulating real life. "Pure" arcade games can be exceedingly abstract, but even then often borrow from real world principles (gravity, simple harmonic motion, elasticity, etc) in order to give them understandable properties. I'm not sure it's actually possible to have a game that has nothing to do with reality... (I'm ready for ideas though! :) )

Battlefield 2 tries to pitch itself a little past the middle on this notional scale. It wants to show real world things but doesn't concern itself with many real world problems -- bullets don't cause fixed damage, a single 9mm round is enough to kill you stone dead, injuries should slow you down and disorient you, vehicles don't explode quite so spectacularly and certainly don't "unspawn" their destroyed carcasses, etc, etc, etc.

Action Quake 2, if you're familiar with it, deliberately pitched in at the less-than-realistic end of the market... action movie physics and mechanics were in play, as much as the Q2 engine could manage.

America's Army works on having realistic elements to it, but it's just not fun being sniped by the guy who's played this map for the last 100 hours... again and again and again and again... sure, it might be realistic, but I just don't find it fun.

I think critical factors in designing a realistic game include considerations on how long it will take a person to pick up the basics, how well the raw mechanics work within the game (as opposed to compared to real life), how much real world experience can be safely/properly used within the game paradigm, and how the game handles "the death penalty".

Death, in games, is a crucial element. Counterstrike says, "Die and you're out". Action Quake 2 did the same. Battlefield has gone with "Die and you're out for the next 20 seconds... oh and you're back at some respawn point too". Planetside had a respawn counter and spawn locations. Most RTS games operate a "Die and you're out". Most MMOs operate a "Die and respawn somewhere safe, perhaps with some other temporary inconveniences". Unreal Tournament has instant respawns, albeit at your base. Even games that push for a relatively high level of realism, such as Red Orchestra, allow respawning.

Death and losing are important in games and how they are implemented directly affects how realistic one can feel the game is. Can a single bullet kill you? Frequently? Are there enough grenades in the game to allow for 'nade-spam? If so, does that mean loads of people can die at once? Once you're dead, do you have a short period (seconds) or a long period (minutes) or being unable to play? You can answer all those questions in different ways and suddenly you change the whole game-feel.

Possibility of one-shot-kills, 'nade-spam, and Counterstrike-style 5 minute rounds can lead to new players getting around 45 seconds play in any given 5 minute period -- that's 9 minutes play in any hour. In anyone's books that's pretty tedious, but it is pretty "realistic".

However, UT-style respawning combined with attrition-based damage (large health bars, low relative damage) and few area-effect damage abilities leads to slugging matches that carry little in the way of realism.

... and all that's just considering a single game style -- the battle.

Personally, I like games that vary around the middle ground, carrying sufficient aspects of realism to allow me to use some real world thinking at the game, but without requiring that I undergo weeks of training, read manuals that are an inch thick, or sit out substantial portions of the game because I haven't played it enough to survive yet.

Fortunately I started playing FPS's when they first arrived and so I've been able to step into the majority of them without much learning, but I've watched people step into modern FPS's fresh and seen how frustrating they can be, requiring prior knowledge of the map, excellent 3D-awareness and map navigation, fast reflexes, prior knowledge of "the best weapons" and, above all, the willingness to die frequently and without explanation until, at some point, you eventually figure out what you should have been doing all along.
 

DeZmond

Junior Administrator
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment...

Do you want a realistic game? Well... time for a quick story, I think.

A long time ago, there was a space shuttle simulator which was termed an enthusiast's dream. It was first in a new breed of 3D games for DOS, and space fanatics were gleefully rubbing their hands together in anticipation of being able to play it.

For average joe though, he got the game through, and was confronted by a massive manual running to thousands of pages and also an option to (no joke) run through the FULL 3-day pre-flight checks!

Okay, so that's an example of extreme realism. But still, it's a valid point.

People play games for escapism, for the most part. It's not a training simulator (excluding MS Flight Sim et al). I don't play Vice City expecting to have to go to a garage and order a replacement wing mirror because some idiot I ran over clutched onto it as I sped past - instead I drive into the garage and a puff of smoke later my car is as good as new.

Likewise, playing any great single player shooter of the past 10 years, such a thing would not be possible in real life - there is no way a character could get from start to finish and remain intact.

Realism is fine in small doses, but douse your game in it and you'll soon be wishing that you were back in arcadey mode.
 

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
I think 'pure' realism will never be achieved in games. Take a modern day war game. To achieve complete realism you would have to be able to do all the motions of the game yourself and you would have to be able to smell and feel your enviroment. Even then it would be not be completely realistic because in real life you would have thoughts and emotions about your situation which you cant achieve in a game as you know its only a 'game'.
 

Taffy

New Member
Nanor said:
So, let's tone it down a bit. PKM for instance, let's face it, a fully automatic weapon, firing hundreds of rounds per minute, would most likely come out trumps in all instances. So, still too much realism.

What if you stick a tank barrel up someone's nose? I think i'd probably drop the PKM, tbh.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
Taffy said:
What if you stick a tank barrel up someone's nose?

We can play that game up to the point where my Tac Nuke trumps all, I think. ;)

Games such as Battlefield 2 don't consider problems such as weapon weight, set-up time, ammunition supplies (in any serious way), fatigue, adrenaline, jams and so on and so on. I really appreciate including some of these factors into games so that combat has that slightly unpredictable edge... then experience and quick-witted reactions can really come into play. It's that "oh shit, main weapon has jammed, my handgun is out, so let's go to knives and stab that bastard!" that can really make my day.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
all gmes shud b as realistic as possible without ruinin gameplay bcause sittin in a tent wud suck so fun is the main priority for the minute but there will come a time wen people demand things beyond realism : this will b surrealism and wen that time comes games wont b games so its up 2 us to stop this idea of makin games ultrareal make them so u shoot the ground bside some1 and they die as a result of it :cool: now that wood b fun; also Known as arcade games its up 2 us people do we want uber-realistic games or lots of fun???? only u can answer that :eek:
 
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