Richard Dawkins? Religon?

G

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
Well after watching the South Park episode 'Go God Go' which featured Richard Dawkins I did some research on him and found his official site.

Now I am a thiest and have no objection to any belief systems or people without beliefs however I have trouble accepting Richard Dawkins and his views. Radicalism is associeted often with religons - often unfairly. However I am seeing (similar to the South Park episode) that Dawkins, who explains that religon is intolerant etc. is actually showing what his form of athiesm is about. He argues that the world should be rid of religon which is a delusion in his eyes that goes exactly against science and evolution. I mean look at this, which is a poster supporting Dawkins new book:

http://richarddawkins.net/images/RDFflyerIMAGINE4page.jpg

Of course the first thing that comes to many peoples mind when they see that is 'Yeah it was Islam which did that'. However it was extremists within Islam who believed their own interpretation of the religon. Among 1 billion Muslims in the world how many are commiting these atrocities? A handful.

I wont go into anymore detail on his views however I think you will get the just of it. Please discuss and show your views on not only Dawkins but Religon/Science as well :)
 
Nanor

Nanor

Well-Known Member
I don't like Religion. I don't mind the idea of God, but I don't like the idea that we worship him like we do. Now obviously we should be thankful. Some of you are probably thinking, but he created us! Well, our parents created us, we don't worship them every Sunday and we don't get crazy rules bestowed upon us.

I don't like authority in the church. For example, the Pope in Medieval times could call all of Christendom (Christian Europe) to unite and destroy anything that didn't, well, conform. Of course, Popes then where a bit crazy, but aren't they crazy now?

I don't like authoritative figures in the church because Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

We can't have humans representing God, as they won't do it right. Who's to say God agrees with half of these rules in practice today?
 
Pestcontrol

Pestcontrol

In Cryo Sleep
Whenever i mention that i am an atheist to a conservative american, Richard Dawkins is the first thing they come up with. I then have a lot of explaining to do.


Blegh. While i agree with his ideas for the most part, he's far too militant to my liking.
 
Tetsuo_Shima

Tetsuo_Shima

In Cryo Sleep
I've just watched all of Dawkins' Q+A video, and I am both very impressed, but at the same time quite disappointed. On the one hand, in that one video he has managed to clarify many basic scientific truths that I have until now struggled to come to terms with in terms of fully grasping their meaning with respect to the contrast with a religious point of view, even if I did have a firm hold of the basic physical understandings. Basically, some of the arguments for the existence of a god that I did find quite unbelievable were easily clarified and my grasp improved.

However, on the other hand, most of his argument for the basis and existence of morality without religious intervention is weak. Maybe not from the point of view that without religion, morality would never have arisen; I believe it would have, at least maybe from a selfish evolutionary point of view (i.e. nice guy gets all the chicks and mates, to put it simply).
However, on the flipside, I don't understand why he would have a problem with people using religion to obtain these morals, or to boost their understanding of them, when he explains that his 'evolutionary' morals are basically the same as 'religious' morals. I'm probably not making as much sense of this to you as I'd hope, but I can understand my argument perfectly.

From a personal perspective, I would say that being brought up in a Christian (Protestant) family and following the related religious beliefs have improved my morality (where I use compassion as a base for 'improvement') as opposed to what I would believe if I had been brought up outside the teachings of my religion.
An example: if I get into a fight, know what pops into my head? 'If the bad guy hits you, offer him the other cheek' I don't hit back, it conflicts with my beliefs somewhere.
Example 2: There's one slice of cake left, and my brother and I both want it. I give it to him. 'Do to others as you would have them do to you'. Always pops in, without fail.

Lastly, and this is more of an indirect example, going to church and mixing with the Christian socio-elite :) has had a marked impact on how polite I am to other people. Now, there is no teaching of God that tells you 'always be polite' (Well, maybe there is. If there is, then I've never read it) but without me interacting with the good natured people I would never have met had I not been a Christian, I would never have had the good manners (it sounds presumptuous, and ironic in a sense, but I genuinely believe my manners are pretty up to scratch :)) that I have today.

From this, it's kind of hard to create an argument for religion because there is always the extremist side that goes along with it. However, I can say that, undoubtedly, Christianity has been a great benefit for me in attaining a good-natured lifestyle.

Finally, my last piece of evidence that religion (in my example, Christianity. And hefty majority Christianity at that) does the world some good. Back in the day, when I was a wean, I would say that arounf 75-80 percent of my school class attended church and sunday school regularly. Now, as time has progressed, our class (more specifically, the ones whom I went to church with) have yet to cause any kind of major trouble.
Nowadays, I would say that 25 percent of kids, or less, attend church. All I can see are hoodlums, thugs, scum, everywhere. Obviously, it could just be coincidence. However I find it pretty convincing that as church attendance rates have dropped, crime rates among youths have exploded.

Anyway, thats the end of my deep thinking session, I'm going to go and rest my head :)
 
G

Gopha

In Cryo Sleep
I completely agree with what Tetsuo said! This Richard Dawkins needs to be more leanient I think, he is far too pushy for my liking. And no single figure represents God on earth for me! The Pope is going ot heaven ( I believe) but he does not reperesent God! Sorry if that has upset anyone!
 
Haven

Haven

Administrator
Staff member
He is a very smart guy when it comes to genetics and evolution. However he has turned into a complete zealous arse when it comes to covering religion.

Whilst I am not religious I see many positive sides to religion in both our history and our future. Yes there are many who turn religious beliefs to their own ends, but there are many others who use it as a powerful motivating force that gives purpose to their lives.

The world would be very different without religion, given that many of the great thinkers in history used religion as a muse (or a target) for their intelectual pursuits. I do not agree that the world would be a better place however.
 
DocBot

DocBot

Administrator
Staff member
haven said:
The world would be very different without religion, given that many of the great thinkers in history used religion as a muse (or a target) for their intellectual pursuits. I do not agree that the world would be a better place however.
Click to expand...

Indeed, but let's not forget that religion has also been suppressing intellectuals and their work more or less constantly, throughout history. At certain intervals, however, the religious leaders have had to accept scientific fact and, as a consequence, have had to reinterpret their scriptures or whatever similes they may have had. Best example I can think of is Copernicus and the heliocentric world view...
 
Pestcontrol

Pestcontrol

In Cryo Sleep
Tetsuo_Shima said:
[...] Back in the day, when I was a wean, I would say that arounf 75-80 percent of my school class attended church and sunday school regularly. Now, as time has progressed, our class (more specifically, the ones whom I went to church with) have yet to cause any kind of major trouble.
Nowadays, I would say that 25 percent of kids, or less, attend church. All I can see are hoodlums, thugs, scum, everywhere. Obviously, it could just be coincidence. However I find it pretty convincing that as church attendance rates have dropped, crime rates among youths have exploded. [...]
Click to expand...
That is a bit more complicated than it seems. Did crime rates explode because church attendance dropped? Not necessarily, there may be a single cause for both, or church attendance may have dropped because crime increased and people fell from their faith.

For the rest, much of what you wrote down is what i consider good manners, but that doesn't matter. What i don't like about religion and morality is that someone else decides these morals for you and these morals are very much fixed. That does a lot of unnecessary damage, take the focus on abstinence in combatting AIDS in africa for example.
 
Dragon

Dragon

Well-Known Member
Nanor said:
Well, our parents created us, we don't worship them every Sunday and we don't get crazy rules bestowed upon us.
Click to expand...



Are you that sure about the crazy rules????

Anyway back to topic:

I think a world without religion would have many advantages, but also many disadvantages ... eg. there wouldn't be anybody killing people in the name of god ... BUT ... there would be nothing people could spend their hope to when they are hopeless. Furthermore, killing would not end, first of all because people then will kill for other reasons (money and power will be the 2 main reasons). Secondly ... who well "invented" the rule "thou shalt not kill"??? ... yes it was the bible, the koran or the what-so-ever. In areas without religion people just fought out arguments with their swords (they still did this in "religious" areas ... but not without discussing and sometimes even achieving a peaceful solution) and probably this will also be the case when all religions will just vanish. At that point of time people will not have to fear a "supernatural power" anymore which will punish them in their life or afterwards. The only problem about that is that today the "swords" are nuclear bombs/missiles or even worse.

So ... in my opinion Richard Dawkins is "slightly" narrow-minded ... but I agree that extremists must be abolished!
 
Pestcontrol

Pestcontrol

In Cryo Sleep
In areas without religion people just fought out arguments with their swords (they still did this in "religious" areas ... but not without discussing and sometimes even achieving a peaceful solution) and probably this will also be the case when all religions will just vanish. At that point of time people will not have to fear a "supernatural power" anymore which will punish them in their life or afterwards. The only problem about that is that today the "swords" are nuclear bombs/missiles or even worse.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ. Murder rates in secular, godless Europe and Japan are lower than anywhere else in the world. Thou shalt not kill is more firmly established by humanism than it is by religion, if you ask me.
 
F

Fi$hy

Guest
Dawkins had a lovely piece of info with the whole, natural selection is self-evident. intelligent design is clearly not; argument

That would convince me on creation, if it wasn't for the whole millitant aspect, why Dawkins, why!
 
Dragon

Dragon

Well-Known Member
Pestcontrol said:
Murder rates in secular, godless Europe and Japan are lower than anywhere else in the world.
Click to expand...

You so sure about that? I'm not. At least in the "civilized" Europe it was not allowed to kill your servant as you liked to (well after some time, I admit in the beginning it was also allowed in Europe. Surely they did it but it was not allowed!
 
L

Loki

In Cryo Sleep
You might not make unfounded statements, but associations of this type are tenable at best given the over-arching number of variables at work.
 
Dragon

Dragon

Well-Known Member
Pestcontrol said:
What do you mean with killing your servant? I'm talking about the situation now, not in the past. In the past Europe wasn't secular to begin with.
Click to expand...

Yes and I am criticizing that we will reach a situation similar to the past if we abolish religion ^^
 
G

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
Ok as this is a religous debate here I would like to ask some questions to the atheists. Why are we here/what is the point of our existence? Do you hold spiritual beliefs?

Also here is part 1 of a very interesting documentary which takes the opposite view to Dawkins.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top