Selfishness - Only Human?

[Nanor]

I think the majority of you will agree that humans are self centred, selfish creatures. People will usually step on top of each other to get what they want. Some of you may argue "What about the people that donate money to charity?", maybe they're doing it for the reputation, for them. "What about those who donate money anonymously?" Maybe they have something on their conscience that they feel giving money to charity can get rid of, to clear their mind. (Before you start posting "What about..." think is there no way whatsoever they'd be doing it for themselves?).

Selfishness - is this only Human? We see it in the animal world, Lions fighting so they can be alpha male or for a mate to pass on their genes so surely it can't be only Human. What I'm getting at here is selfishness the basic design for intelligent life, if there is intelligent life out there, do you reckon they are all self centred creatures, or are there creatures out there that truly help each other even if it doesn't help them in any way?

 

[DocBot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

 

[Haven]

^^ what he said, altruism is currently the strongest theory supporting animal (yes we are animals) behavior towards each other (at least the strongest I am aware of ...).

 

[Turang]

but a none selfless act can be something you do not wish to do, for example giving a lift to somebody, you personally dont want to do it, you are not doing it because you want to get in there good books, you are doing it just because that person has asked you for a lift, nothing more nothing less

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Then you're probably doing it out of guilt.

 

[Nanor]

Then you're probably doing it out of guilt.

Exactly, doing it for yourself.

 

[Ronin Storm]

Then you're probably doing it out of guilt.

Or a nebulous hope that, in the same circumstances in future but reverse, you'd get a lift for no apparent gain to the other person.

As I understand it, reciprocal altruism accounts for that. However, I'm not convinced that reciprocal altruism is a sufficiently functional system for humans as it appears to work on the assumption that the community will enforce acceptable norms, oust cheaters. However, the community (in a generic sense) appears to be neutered by being too scared of violent gangs of cheaters, so the cheaters just take and the scared people just give, albeit unwillingly.

When the cheater can just turn around and shoot you and your mates what comeback do you really have? Shoot him first? Maybe reciprocal altruism still accounts for that but the nature of society is that you and I aren't permitted that kind of behaviour -- vigilantism is illegal -- and so we're reliant on an overseer to protect our rights.

Reciprocal altruism sounds good, feels good, but doesn't seem to me to be practical reality for day-to-day living in a hostile environment. Maybe it works over many generations? But if it does, how would we know...?

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

When I said you were doing it out of guilt, I was insinuating it led eventually to selfishness, on one level or another.

guilt leads to selfishness, selfishness leads to hate, hate ... leads to a high bodycount

 

[waterproofbob]

what hows is giving someone a lift doing it of guilt, I'd hate to think that there are no selfless acts, that would bum me out. I couldn't agree more that humans are inherently selfish greedy being and this is why true base communism can't work.

But to say that all acts are selfish seems a little drastic, fine you could spin it to seem like that but equally spin can seem to prove a lot of things. Over the summer I dug up the flower bed and re-planted a load of plants in my Grannies garden, I wasn't asked I don't particularly enjoy gardening and It's not something I'm going to be able to enjoy. It was a job that needed to be done and thus i did it. Personally I don't think that is a selfish act. I suppose you could say that as my Gran may enjoy the flowers and therefore be happy and this will make her kinder around my cousins (who live local to her) which in turn could lead to my Uncles and Aunties being more chilled out meaning the next holiday will be spent a little more light heartedly thus alleviating stress on my folks thus reducing the stress that going to me so that it is somehow selfish on my part.
If that's how you look at it then IMO it sucks to be you.

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

what hows is giving someone a lift doing it of guilt

Well, I wouldn't feel particularly pleased about saying 'fuckoff and make your own way home'. I think you've taken it way out of context, bob. The whole thing I mean, not just my guilt statement. You're thinking of selfish in the sense of 'want want want' but I think DocBots fancy theorem thingy relates to it in a more subtle instinctive manner, like subconsciously doing things and making decisions that are selfish in the sense that they relate back to you, not in the sense that you do everything and expect to profit from it. Something like that.

Be careful not to step in the bullshit, now

 

[DocBot]

[...]so the cheaters just take and the scared people just give, albeit unwillingly.

Reciprocal altruism sounds good, feels good, but doesn't seem to me to be practical reality for day-to-day living in a hostile environment. Maybe it works over many generations? But if it does, how would we know...?

It's a self-regulating "system". It only allows for a certain percentage of freeloaders - if that limit is exceeded, the system collapses and there's noone to freeload off.

Also, about it being a practical reality - it's already a practical reality in most nations - one example: you pay tax (or national health insurance), that money is used to pay for someone elses medical care. And vice versa. Or the dole. I could go on, but you get the point.