Starcraft versus Dawn of War
- Thread starter Piacular
- Start date
Re: Dawn of War
I disagree. DoW presents a more sophisticated design and, I feel, is a more newbie-friendly skirmish game.
DoW, for example, shows four distinct phases of gameplay within the space of a standard 30-40 minute skirmish, and these phases are marked by the type of strategy that is viable -- early rush, troop battles, armour battles, then end game battles. Starcraft presents a simpler three phase model, as armour and troops are not clearly delineated.
DoW is also more accessible to newer players as it rarely presents a paper-scissor-stone battle ethic, so it's much less likely that you end up building totally the wrong troop types for your skirmish -- e.g. I build a bunch of siege tanks and you kill them all off with guardians, because siege tanks can't attack flying things. You can be too slow into the next phase of the game, for certain (e.g. fighting tanks with troops...) but troops can kill tanks and can even be specialised to make them more effective for the armour game phase.
I don't argue that Starcraft is a bad game, but I feel it is now quite aged and DoW shows another decade of RTS design working from the successes of games such as Starcraft.
DoW's key weakness, in my opinion, is the lack of teams-with-shared-bases, as one can do with much earlier games such as Age of Empires II or Starcraft. It's something of an oversight that could have been easily included.
Piacular said:
I disagree. DoW presents a more sophisticated design and, I feel, is a more newbie-friendly skirmish game.
DoW, for example, shows four distinct phases of gameplay within the space of a standard 30-40 minute skirmish, and these phases are marked by the type of strategy that is viable -- early rush, troop battles, armour battles, then end game battles. Starcraft presents a simpler three phase model, as armour and troops are not clearly delineated.
DoW is also more accessible to newer players as it rarely presents a paper-scissor-stone battle ethic, so it's much less likely that you end up building totally the wrong troop types for your skirmish -- e.g. I build a bunch of siege tanks and you kill them all off with guardians, because siege tanks can't attack flying things. You can be too slow into the next phase of the game, for certain (e.g. fighting tanks with troops...) but troops can kill tanks and can even be specialised to make them more effective for the armour game phase.
I don't argue that Starcraft is a bad game, but I feel it is now quite aged and DoW shows another decade of RTS design working from the successes of games such as Starcraft.
DoW's key weakness, in my opinion, is the lack of teams-with-shared-bases, as one can do with much earlier games such as Age of Empires II or Starcraft. It's something of an oversight that could have been easily included.
pHatBambi
In Cryo Sleep
Re: Dawn of War
DOW is VERY unforgiving. The troop limits make winning a near impossibility if you lose a team mate. This is the games downfall in my mind. I can be ten times better then three opposition but there is no way I can beat them because I simply cannot field as many troops as them overall.
Big issue when you start getting good and try playing on public without a decent teamate.
Otherwise I think it rocks.
Although to be honest they don't have Zerglings. When I get my new HD sorted then I'll reinstall this and come play.
Cheers,
pHatBambi.
DOW is VERY unforgiving. The troop limits make winning a near impossibility if you lose a team mate. This is the games downfall in my mind. I can be ten times better then three opposition but there is no way I can beat them because I simply cannot field as many troops as them overall.
Big issue when you start getting good and try playing on public without a decent teamate.
Otherwise I think it rocks.
Although to be honest they don't have Zerglings. When I get my new HD sorted then I'll reinstall this and come play.
Cheers,
pHatBambi.
Piacular
In Cryo Sleep
Re: Dawn of War
Lol, so it doesn't matter what units you build in DoW? Doesn't sound very tactical to me! I found DoW to be rather shallow and all about Marines, being an Eldar fan I was immensely disappointed
Starcraft has many different styles of play, where DoW is all about rushing! There are no more diverse races than in the Starcraft universe, each with their own unique style:
Zerg = lots of weak units
Marines = several average units
Protoss = few uber units
The perfect contrast!
There are more unit types in Starcraft yeilding interesting combinations, not just within one race but (during team games) across all races! Also the lack of unlimited resources leads to a tense game all about positioning
Ronin Storm said:
Lol, so it doesn't matter what units you build in DoW? Doesn't sound very tactical to me! I found DoW to be rather shallow and all about Marines, being an Eldar fan I was immensely disappointed
Starcraft has many different styles of play, where DoW is all about rushing! There are no more diverse races than in the Starcraft universe, each with their own unique style:
Zerg = lots of weak units
Marines = several average units
Protoss = few uber units
The perfect contrast!
There are more unit types in Starcraft yeilding interesting combinations, not just within one race but (during team games) across all races! Also the lack of unlimited resources leads to a tense game all about positioning
Re: Dawn of War
Not really what I was saying. You have tactical diversity in DoW that is not available in Starcraft -- you can create all aspects of the paper-scissors-stone triangle if you have the resources and the time, but you rarely have either. For example, while Space Marines are a fairly diverse unit and can be turned to many angles, they tend to be marmalised in close combat -- equip them with flamers and their close combat effectiveness improves.
Six zergling rush. Probably the most brutal tactic to expose a new Starcraft player to.
DoW allows you two different play mechanisms that aren't available to you in Starcraft or other games of its ilk. Starcraft gives you "fire and forget" -- target your units when you need them and build like there's no tomorrow. Sure, you can do that in DoW too, but the inclusion of morale and reinforcements-at-the-squad means that a smaller, better managed force can overwhelm and destroy a larger, zerged force.
I find that same aspect leads to resource rushing and, ultimately, early base rush. Sub-optimal resource acquisition weeds the pros out from the casual players, and the attackers out from the defenders. In my experience, Starcraft is all about attacking fast, early and brutally -- defensive strategies, from what I've seen, universally lead to a loss. In DoW, notably with the Winter War expansion, booming is more of an option (the Imperial Guard show tendencies to late game boom).
I understand where you are coming from as regards the Eldar as while they have interesting options they aren't as unique as I might have hoped. However, I do believe that DoW presents considerable variety and extends that variety in unit specialisations through heavy weapons and specific upgrades. Space Marines have advantages at range, Chaos Marines up close, Orks in numbers and Eldar in teleporting. Space Marines play a very standard RTS, Orks fundamentally rely on building up their Waaaarrrrrrr! power, Eldar rely on mobility and surgical methods -- not very familiar with Chaos but, as an opponent, they feel like a Marine/Ork/Eldar cross.
Piacular said:
Not really what I was saying. You have tactical diversity in DoW that is not available in Starcraft -- you can create all aspects of the paper-scissors-stone triangle if you have the resources and the time, but you rarely have either. For example, while Space Marines are a fairly diverse unit and can be turned to many angles, they tend to be marmalised in close combat -- equip them with flamers and their close combat effectiveness improves.
Piacular said:
Six zergling rush. Probably the most brutal tactic to expose a new Starcraft player to.
DoW allows you two different play mechanisms that aren't available to you in Starcraft or other games of its ilk. Starcraft gives you "fire and forget" -- target your units when you need them and build like there's no tomorrow. Sure, you can do that in DoW too, but the inclusion of morale and reinforcements-at-the-squad means that a smaller, better managed force can overwhelm and destroy a larger, zerged force.
Piacular said:
I find that same aspect leads to resource rushing and, ultimately, early base rush. Sub-optimal resource acquisition weeds the pros out from the casual players, and the attackers out from the defenders. In my experience, Starcraft is all about attacking fast, early and brutally -- defensive strategies, from what I've seen, universally lead to a loss. In DoW, notably with the Winter War expansion, booming is more of an option (the Imperial Guard show tendencies to late game boom).
I understand where you are coming from as regards the Eldar as while they have interesting options they aren't as unique as I might have hoped. However, I do believe that DoW presents considerable variety and extends that variety in unit specialisations through heavy weapons and specific upgrades. Space Marines have advantages at range, Chaos Marines up close, Orks in numbers and Eldar in teleporting. Space Marines play a very standard RTS, Orks fundamentally rely on building up their Waaaarrrrrrr! power, Eldar rely on mobility and surgical methods -- not very familiar with Chaos but, as an opponent, they feel like a Marine/Ork/Eldar cross.
Re: Dawn of War
Fair point. I play a lot of two player coop with DoW, so if one of us is out then the other one calls it quits too. Starcraft focuses on resources and production, all other factors being even, and a skilled player can make up for team losses by superior resource acquisition.
However, smaller, better controlled, morale-breaking units still have a substantial advantage over mobs. Starcraft is played at its most optimal through waypoints and build queues. DoW, on the other hand, benefits from hands-on control for a squad or group of squads to provide reinforcements and special powers.
Chaos Marines get those pink horrors later in the game... not quite Zerglings, I admit, but along the same lines.
pHatBambi said:
Fair point. I play a lot of two player coop with DoW, so if one of us is out then the other one calls it quits too. Starcraft focuses on resources and production, all other factors being even, and a skilled player can make up for team losses by superior resource acquisition.
However, smaller, better controlled, morale-breaking units still have a substantial advantage over mobs. Starcraft is played at its most optimal through waypoints and build queues. DoW, on the other hand, benefits from hands-on control for a squad or group of squads to provide reinforcements and special powers.
pHatBambi said:
Chaos Marines get those pink horrors later in the game... not quite Zerglings, I admit, but along the same lines.
Re: Dawn of War
I used to play it quite a lot, 97 or 98? sometime. I usually owned them with a protoss rush. Once you have a line of zealots constantly feeding to their base you can focus on the protoss' real strength - air superiority (at least it was, then) ... never got into the expansions though. Still I maintain that the best mp strategy game is cossacks. Never tried the newest one, unfortunately. But the old one was absolutely brilliant. It's balanced so that there isn't really _one_ great tactic, rather quite a few good ones still, it's a lot about speed, as in all resource based games...
edit: argh, the DoW and starcraft threads are all mixed up! bah.
I used to play it quite a lot, 97 or 98? sometime. I usually owned them with a protoss rush. Once you have a line of zealots constantly feeding to their base you can focus on the protoss' real strength - air superiority (at least it was, then) ... never got into the expansions though. Still I maintain that the best mp strategy game is cossacks. Never tried the newest one, unfortunately. But the old one was absolutely brilliant. It's balanced so that there isn't really _one_ great tactic, rather quite a few good ones
still, it's a lot about speed, as in all resource based games...edit: argh, the DoW and starcraft threads are all mixed up! bah.
BaRT
In Cryo Sleep
Re: Dawn of War
Wow RoninStorm , I couldnt have typed it better
Eldar is all about hit and run tactics they are the socalled specialist race .Harass the enemy , run , harass.
I haven't played it on the internet still for some reason but im going to try it one day with or without you
Wow RoninStorm , I couldnt have typed it better
Eldar is all about hit and run tactics they are the socalled specialist race .Harass the enemy , run , harass.
I haven't played it on the internet still for some reason but im going to try it one day with or without you
Re: Dawn of War
[mod]Split this conversation off into its own thread as it's now insanely mixed up and is really about both Starcraft and DoW.[/mod]
[mod]Split this conversation off into its own thread as it's now insanely mixed up and is really about both Starcraft and DoW.[/mod]
Piacular
In Cryo Sleep
Re: Dawn of War
Bah, you're right
Bambi and I have been playing it on the 'net recently and found it is all about the rush
Games that only last 5 minutes are no fun!
Still if you declare peace for the first 5 minutes it can turn into an excellent epic struggle with skirmishes all over the map.
Aye, I'm a big fan of the Protoss. Two Reavers in a shuttle zipped in through a chink in their base defense can cause all sorts of amusing problems
Bah, you're right
Bambi and I have been playing it on the 'net recently and found it is all about the rush
Games that only last 5 minutes are no fun!
Still if you declare peace for the first 5 minutes it can turn into an excellent epic struggle with skirmishes all over the map.
DocBot said:
Aye, I'm a big fan of the Protoss. Two Reavers in a shuttle zipped in through a chink in their base defense can cause all sorts of amusing problems
Re: Dawn of War
Oh so true.
Sidestepping slightly, the rush prevention rules and mechanisms available in Rise of Nations were really good for that. That said, I've never played RoN against humans.
Piacular said:
Oh so true.
Sidestepping slightly, the rush prevention rules and mechanisms available in Rise of Nations were really good for that. That said, I've never played RoN against humans.
Pubic_Warrior
In Cryo Sleep
space marines or imperial guard are the best!!!!!!
Pubic_Warior said:
Try the Orks in multiplayer. Once they get rolling they're a real danger and their close combat troopers can cut Space Marine squads into shreds. Takes the Assault Marine squads to hold them at bay, or overwhelming firepower (and if you've got that then there wasn't going to be much of a problem either way...
).
Piacular
In Cryo Sleep
Re: Dawn of War
How could I have forgotten about RoN! Having played almost every RTS I can get my hands on (including scummy Earth 2150), Rise of Nations stands out as one of the best. Though I always got the impression it was slightly underrated by everyone esle.
The different costumes of each nation look awesome, especially early on. I've never played it on the 'net (maybe there's an Event in there somewhere ), but I have played it a few times over a network. We tended to limit it to the enlightenment age and keep the combat Sharpe like . That was great fun, lines of musket men blowing the bejesus out of each other, retaliatory cavalry charges met by fusiliers muhahahaha, happy days
Ronin Storm said:
How could I have forgotten about RoN! Having played almost every RTS I can get my hands on (including scummy Earth 2150), Rise of Nations stands out as one of the best. Though I always got the impression it was slightly underrated by everyone esle
.The different costumes of each nation look awesome, especially early on. I've never played it on the 'net (maybe there's an Event in there somewhere
), but I have played it a few times over a network. We tended to limit it to the enlightenment age and keep the combat Sharpe like . That was great fun, lines of musket men blowing the bejesus out of each other, retaliatory cavalry charges met by fusiliers muhahahaha, happy days 
Rise of Nations
Me too! I don't appreciate the shift into the more modern ages with the introduction of aircraft and oil -- I'm sure that's there deliberately to shake up the flow of the game, but it always jars my experience.
Me too! I don't appreciate the shift into the more modern ages with the introduction of aircraft and oil -- I'm sure that's there deliberately to shake up the flow of the game, but it always jars my experience.
BaRT
In Cryo Sleep
Yeah used to play ron and thrones on lan with my dad and my brother it was one of the best games and we kept our age in enlightement too for fun , because nukes and that shit is just lame :/
Anyways back to dawn of war I read recently that Dawn of war has been added to the games list to be played on World Cyber Games which proves it is as good as starcraft (even better!!)
Anyways back to dawn of war
I read recently that Dawn of war has been added to the games list to be played on World Cyber Games which proves it is as good as starcraft (even better!!)
Ki!ler-Mk1
Active Member
I have Read "most" of this thread, and i'll add my conclusions.
Starcraft is the first game i ever played online, and the first decent one i played. I bought it when broodwar was released, and have had much fun with it over the years(i even have an ancient b.net acc), however over times i have passed through periods when i was good and mostly when i was bad, it has an awsome editor, and is quite amazing when you see what the advanced editors can do that works fine online in battlenet, and was yet never used in the retail game. I bought DOW last(hmmm, well a year ago anyway.) christmas, played it for a few weeks decided it was nothing like warhammer 40k, and very unbalanced, I have been into warhammer for a long time and have collected 6000 points(this only means anything to people who know about warhammer) of 40k, and i didnt think it had enough likeness too the game, i should probably give it a another chance, as over the last 4 months i have only been into the fiction.
I think that starcraft is much much(this much is for that awsome thing "battle.net") better than Dow, and well having played warhammer 40k for so long i just dont like it, the gameplay and some of the stuff units can do is what i mainly dissagree with... playing around with it is fun, but seriosu gameplay sucks.
Rise of nations is one i like too
Starcraft is the first game i ever played online, and the first decent one i played. I bought it when broodwar was released, and have had much fun with it over the years(i even have an ancient b.net acc), however over times i have passed through periods when i was good and mostly when i was bad, it has an awsome editor, and is quite amazing when you see what the advanced editors can do that works fine online in battlenet, and was yet never used in the retail game. I bought DOW last(hmmm, well a year ago anyway.) christmas, played it for a few weeks decided it was nothing like warhammer 40k, and very unbalanced, I have been into warhammer for a long time and have collected 6000 points(this only means anything to people who know about warhammer) of 40k, and i didnt think it had enough likeness too the game, i should probably give it a another chance, as over the last 4 months i have only been into the fiction.
I think that starcraft is much much(this much is for that awsome thing "battle.net"
) better than Dow, and well having played warhammer 40k for so long i just dont like it, the gameplay and some of the stuff units can do is what i mainly dissagree with... playing around with it is fun, but seriosu gameplay sucks.Rise of nations is one i like too
B
Blammo!
Guest
Well I have to disagree with you Ronin. I don't know DoW and I'm not planning on saying anything about that game but your not giving starcraft enough credit.
First of all every unit in Starcraft is good. Thats very unique for a strategy game. Starcraft was the first to be able to pull that off. Also the first who created 3 different races with almost perfect balance and different play styles.
But as you say, the game is outdated and I believe you in that. Starcraft is probably not a topgame anymore but it still holds its own with the newer strategy games.
About the lings rush. Starcraft has so many different strategy, one more popular than another, but still enough variety. A ling rush is easilly killed, especially if you have some micro skills. The reason why newbes are so brutally defeated in this game is because every strcraft player is a veteran. There are hardly any casual gamers because its soo old.
Starcraft is THE game about micro. What less skilled players don't realise is that every unit counts. If you look at pro gamers you can see that they try to keep every unit alive and get the most out of them. The early battles are generally fought with just a few units. Late game massing to the unit limit is almost never seen.
I'm glad that starcraft has little defensive strategies. Of course you can build up defense and with units backup it will function well. But I like to fight constantly and fiercely. Starcraft is not about early rushes but about constantly fighting and trying to gain superior map control.
All in all starcraft is outdated but was groundbraking for its time and that should never be forgotten.
First of all every unit in Starcraft is good. Thats very unique for a strategy game. Starcraft was the first to be able to pull that off. Also the first who created 3 different races with almost perfect balance and different play styles.
But as you say, the game is outdated and I believe you in that. Starcraft is probably not a topgame anymore but it still holds its own with the newer strategy games.
About the lings rush. Starcraft has so many different strategy, one more popular than another, but still enough variety. A ling rush is easilly killed, especially if you have some micro skills. The reason why newbes are so brutally defeated in this game is because every strcraft player is a veteran. There are hardly any casual gamers because its soo old.
Starcraft is THE game about micro. What less skilled players don't realise is that every unit counts. If you look at pro gamers you can see that they try to keep every unit alive and get the most out of them. The early battles are generally fought with just a few units. Late game massing to the unit limit is almost never seen.
I'm glad that starcraft has little defensive strategies. Of course you can build up defense and with units backup it will function well. But I like to fight constantly and fiercely. Starcraft is not about early rushes but about constantly fighting and trying to gain superior map control.
All in all starcraft is outdated but was groundbraking for its time and that should never be forgotten.