The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with us!

[Windzarko]

This thread should hopefully replace all the previously stickied raiding threads that were cluttering the place up before, consolidating all our new, current and potential raiders need to know into one place.

Before you apply to be a raider with us

There's a few things that people wishing to apply for raiding spots in the guild (be it from within or without) need to have sorted before they put an application up:

• Activated forum account (make sure you check your email and follow the activation link, or it won't count!)
• Your main character(s) listed in your forum profile (check the guide HERE to see how to do that). Without this part sorted, you won't be able to use our raid signup system!
• Teamspeak 2 downloaded, installed, and working; we can help you with this bit if you need, and there is a guide for getting onto our server HERE and HERE. Teamspeak is not optional for our raids, although we don't ask that everyone be able to talk on it; being able to listen in is what counts!
• Make sure you've read up on our rules (most of which can be found lower down in this post)
• Compatibility with the community; if you don't fit in with other people, you're going to have trouble. This is a guild built on a strong foundation of friendship and community, and bringing negative feeling, poor attitude or disruption to the community is very likely to result in you either not getting invited, or getting penalised or even removed if you cause trouble once in the guild.

Basic Raider rules

If you are ranked at Trial Raider or higher with us, then there are more guild rules for you to follow than for a non-Raiding member of the guild. If you're in any doubt about the rules, or are confused by some part of them, feel free to ask an officer for clarification.

• You have a single raiding main; this is the character you bring to most raids unless we ask otherwise. In some circumstances, people may be allowed to bring alts along, but unless it's a run of something like Naxx10, don't expect to be able to roll on most loot
• You raid with us, and only us. Whilst it would be acceptable to raid outside of the guild with an alt character, your main is to raid with the guild only, unless you get officer permission to do otherwise. Also, unless you've already been told that there isn't a spot for you in a given night's raiding, I recommend that you don't go raiding elsewhere with alts on that raid night; if we need to grab you later, we wouldn't want to have you shaft whichever group you're with by leaving, unless they can easily replace you. Note that anyone who raids without permission on their raiding main not only runs the risk of disrupting or outright halting our own raiding efforts (which is selfish and thoughtless to say the least), but also runs the risk of being barred from raiding, being demoted, or thrown out of the guild (depending on their past behaviour and attitude). There are some exceptions to this, however:
  1. Vault of Archavon : 10 or 25, people are free to PuG this at will on any character. Do note that sometimes we try to do guild-run VoA's, but they aren't mandatory and don't fall under usual raiding restrictions in this way
  2. Naxx10 : We largely let people PuG Naxx10 these days, although there frequent in-guild runs of the place, for gearing both mains and alts. You don't need permission to attend a Naxx10 PuG, but do consider keeping yourself unlocked for guild runs
  3. Obsidian Sanctum 10: People are free to PuG this one as well, although I'd say the same as for Naxx10; remember that there will be guild runs, but you can still PuG it if you want
  4. Naxx25/OS25: You MUST get permission before PuG'ing either of these, but typically speaking there's a good chance that we'll let you go. It's a good chance to gear up and we won't say no if we know for sure that there won't be a guild run that week
  5. Anything else: Ask, but don't count too heavily on it. If we're likely to run it that week and might need you, there's a good chance you won't get permission, but that doesn't mean we won't make exceptions, and we will give permission if we know we won't run the raid.
• When you become a raider, you agree to be ready for the raids you attend, so far as is possible. This means ensuring that you turn up to raids repaired, with all the necessary reagents, elixirs/flasks and buff food.

Trial Raider to Raider promotions

Long story short, we'll promote you over time when we think you're ready. Don't pester us about it, but if you've been active in raids and have been at the rank for a month or more, do poke us, just in case we've forgotten.

The main difference between the two ranks is that we watch Trial Raiders for performance/gearing issues that we can try help with, and it's an evaluation period if you're largely an unknown quantity to us. It doesn't affect your ability to roll on loot in any way, and it usually won't affect whether or not you get a raid spot (I say usually; we sometimes will take a proven Raider over a Trial Raider if we need to make a group work).

Sign-ups and raid attendance

This is a very important section that should hopefully clear up some causes for confusion, and make some things clear to everyone else.

Firstly, as mentioned earlier in this post, you need to have at least your raiding main listed in your account settings to be able to use our raid sign-up system (click HERE to see how).

Once your account is properly set up for it, you can sign up to raids by going to the root of the forums (the entire TheHavenNet forums, not just this WoW section), and look for the events calendar just underneath the shoutbox (not the Events subforums). You will be able to see all of TheHavenNet's schedules events for the next week, and our ones will be tagged with "[WoW]" at the start of them. To sign up to one, look for the event you wish to sign up for, and click the link. It will take you to a page with the details of the event (make sure you check the times, and make sure you know what the times for your time zone are, to avoid turning up an hour early/late). Underneath the details should be a large table showing who has signed up, with people signed up under the headings of "Yes On Time", "Yes Late", "Maybe" and "No". Scrolling down further, you'll find a drop-down box labelled "character" where you can choose the character you wish to sign up with, choose one of the four sign-up options, and leave a comment.

We expect people to check all raid events and, if they're currently active in the game, to sign up to every raid, even if just to say no. This gives us a better idea of who might become available.

Also, and this is something I can't stress enough; do not say "Yes", be it on time or late, if there is a reasonable chance that you won't be turning up! That is what Maybe is for, and if you know you might not be able to be there, make sure we know that via your sign up so we don't sit there holding on futile hope! People signed as "Maybe" aren't given lower priority on raid spots if they turn up on time, and sometimes we have to rely on the Maybe's showing up to make a raid work, but at least then we know it's not a sure thing. Also, if you sign as Yes but can't turn up for whatever reason, please do try to let us know, be it in-game, on TS, on the forums, or via someone else who is online. It's important for us to know as soon as possible so we can adjust plans appropriately, or know to call a raid rather than pointlessly wait for ages before giving up.

We also expect people to try and sign up as Yes at least once every few weeks to justify their raid rank, but if you can't manage this for whatever reason, do contact an officer to let us know. We won't penalise you for it if we know there's a reason behind it, and we'll try to plan around your absence.

Also, to try and keep things fair, we will usually note down people who signed up and turned up but didn't get a spot in the raid (assuming it went ahead); these people will, where possible, get priority in the next week's raiding. Continuations of the same raid give priority to people who attended the first time round, however, although we will try to get the people who were left out in to fill any spots that open up. Long story short, we try to get as many people raiding as often as possible.

However! There is one important rule that overrides ALL else: fairness to the group over fairness to the individual. We will only ever try to build raid groups that will succeed without undue stress, and people will sometimes get left out more often that we like for the sake of trying to keep raids balanced and working properly. This isn't a slight against the people left out, it'll be a case of needing specific people for specific things. We -will- try to get those people left out because of this in, but building a working raid always takes priority, no matter what.

Loot Rules

Ah, finally the bit that there's often a lot of confusion over, so here it is, cleared up and consolidated and hopefully not lacking any important info.

These rules will apply to any of our progression raids, to any 25-man raids, most guild-run VoA's and to Eye of Eternity. We might be a bit more lax about things in Naxx10 and OS10, but if in doubt, refer to these rules:

When a piece of loot drops, be it from a boss or a trash mob, the following happens:

If it's a green, it goes to the designated enchanter to be DE'd and the mats will go to the guild bank to fund enchants for raiders. If there is no enchanter present, we'll have someone hold them until they can be passed to a guild enchanter for DE.

If it's a BoE blue of any worth, it will go to the guild bank. If it isn't particularly valuable, it'll either be raid-rolled and go to a random member of the raid, or might go to the guild bank to be sold on the AH for profit (officers will decide in each case).

If it's a BoP epic item, then we go over to our main loot rules:

1. Mainspec rolls (1): if the item is for your character's main spec, is of your armour class (if it's cloth/leather/mail/plate), and you are on your raiding main, you may roll on the item
2. Mainspec rolls (2): same as above, but for people of a higher armour class (for example, plate-wearers rolling on mail). We might make exceptions if you can prove that the item in question is just that important for you, but this will be rare at best.
3. Dualspec rolls: if you purchased the ability to have a second spec, you can get permission from the officers to have your second spec listed as a secondary mainspec. This will only be allowed if you are someone who we need to get to stand in for healing or tanking positions when we are shorthanded! If you have been given permission to be counted in this way, you may roll Dualspec on loot for your secondary spec.
4. Offspec rolls: if the loot is not needed mainspec or respec, then anyone that can use the item and wants it for an off-spec may roll on it. Also, people that voluntarily bring alt characters to raids without being expressly asked to use that alt will roll Offspec on all loot; if you haven't been specifically asked to bring the character, don't count on getting mainspec loot!

If it's a BoE epic item, we use the same procedure, with one change: if it doesn't go Mainspec or Dualspec, there are no offspec rolls. The item will go directly to the guild bank.

Hopefully that should be quite clear; when the master looter is distributing loot, he'll first call for mainspec rolls; if there aren't any, mainspec of a higher armour class may roll; if there aren't any then Dualspec, then offspec. You may not roll on the item until your appropriate looting category is told to roll.

Also! (yes, there's more) We encourage people to look at the gear of the other people rolling against you on an item; if it's a more significant upgrade for someone else, do think about letting them have it for the sake of strenghtening the raid overall. If you decide to pass in favour of someone else, note that you pass for the next highest roller; if you have the highest roll, you can't then say you want to pass it to a specific other person that rolled unless they are the next highest.

Next, for every item that you win with a Mainspec roll (be it of your armour class or lower), you incur a penalty against any further rolls. Dualspec and Offspec rolls won't get this penalty, however. The penalty works out like this; for each item you win Mainspec, all of the rest of your Mainspec loot rolls have a -10 modifier to them, adding up for each item won. For example, if you have won two rolls, then your next roll will be work out as Roll - 20. This negative modifier last for the rest of the day, even if we go to another raid instance. It does NOT carry over to the next day, even if we go back to an unfinished raid from the previous day. There is only one exception: if you are the only person rolling on an item, you do not incur this penalty.

Finally, two simple limitations on winning items; firstly you are not allowed to roll on an item of the same type as one you have already won that raid (example, only one shoulder-slot item per raid, only one weapon, only one ring, etc), unless nobody else would be rolling against you Mainspec for the second one. Secondly, once you have won three items mainspec, you cannot roll on further Mainspec items unless either you're the only one rolling, or the other people rolling have also won three items. This may seem slightly confusing, but the basic idea is to prevent one person winning all the loot and not being affected by the negative roll modifiers due to sheer luck, but it will still allow them to get loot drops if nobody else is rolling Mainspec; loot ALWAYS goes mainspec before it goes offspec.

Just in case people are confused, here is an example scenario:
A two-handed melee DPS axe drops (for the sake of arguement, it is unsuitable for a DK tank). There is a Retadin, two DPS warriors (Fury or Arms), and a DPS Death Knight all wanting to roll on the item. Let's say that the Retadin has won one item in that raid that isn't a weapon, one of the warriors has won a weapon already, and the Death Knight has won three items so far:

• The Retadin may roll on the item, but has -10 on his roll; he rolls a 83, which is modified to 73
• The first warrior has won nothing so far, and rolls 81. This roll is left as-is
• The second warrior has already won a weapon, and thus cannot roll on this one since other people are rolling mainspec on it
• The Death Knight has won three items in the raid and thus cannot roll on the weapon since other people are rolling.

In this case, the first warrior wins; even though his initial roll was lower, the Retadin's roll ended up lower after his -10 modifier for having won loot. Note that if both the first warrior and the retadin had passed on the weapon, the second warrior and the Death Knight would both have been allowed to roll.




That should hopefully be everything. I'll update with anything I missed later if need be, and I can update with clarifications/additional info if requested!

 

[Huung]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

Just to clear up a slight bit of confusion on one of the rolling criteria:

you are not allowed to roll on an item of the same type as one you have already won that raid (example, only one shoulder-slot item per raid, only one weapon, only one ring, etc)

The way you've said "shoulder-slot" implies it's the slot you can't roll on more than one item for, yet "only one weapon" disadvantages dual-wielding melee DPS as it covers potentially two slots.

Is it the case therefore that melee DPS who would only use dual-wield (such as enh shaman, or rogues) are to be disadvantaged by only being allowed to win one weapon in the raid, even if a main hand and an off hand upgrade were to drop? As both would still count towards the three item limit I wouldn't think it would disadvantage the raid, but it does seem odd that the disadvantage of finding two decent weapons is then compounded by not being able to win both in one raid.

Similarly, if you cannot win both main and off hand weapons in the one raid, can other classes who use both hands (ie. shields, offhands) still win a weapon and their respective second "weapon" slot piece in the raid?

 

[Thunder]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

"main hand" and "off hand" are two different types of items, therefor I think you should be allowed to upgrade both in a single raid (assuming you get lucky enough ).

 

[Enya]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

"main hand" and "off hand" are two different types of items, therefor I think you should be allowed to upgrade both in a single raid (assuming you get lucky enough ).

2nd that.

 

[Zooggy]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

Ahey,

"only one weapon" disadvantages dual-wielding melee DPS

You're not looking at all the variables. What you say is formally true, but it's about as useful as saying that "only one ring disadvantages dual-ring characters".

Off-spec notwithstanding, weapons that are good for dual-weilders are only good for dual-weilders, as everyone else either uses a two-handed weapon, or a shield with a tanking weapon or a ranged DPS stats weapon. (There may be an obscure exception, somewhere, which I'll be happy to hear about, but I doubt it...)

It's not about "disadvantaging" dual-weilding DPS, but rather about making sure that all dual-weilding DPS have reasonable access to weapon drops.

("Yeah, but tanks and spell users get the off-hand slot and that's unfair.")

Not so much. Unless under the rarest of circumstances, those people won't be competing for the same items. What do the two dual-weild DPS in the 10-man raid care if the healer already got a healing off-hand earlier and is now rolling on a healing weapon? What do the six dual-weild DPS in the 25-man raid care?

"main hand" and "off hand" are two different types of items

I was under the impression that a recent patch did away with that sort of stuff, and that all weapons now are either one-hand or two-hand. But, I may be wrong on this one.

By the way, I'm not writing this to put this or any other suggestions down. Believe it or not, I want to hear about every single idea, no matter how weird, and every single gripe, no matter how obscure or self-serving.

But you should realise that working out a "fair" loot system is a mother of a headache, if for no other reason that you have to look at all the variables, and there's a truckload of them... and I am under the impression that we have.

As such, you should be prepared to see your suggestion picked apart, analysed and discarded.

Still, that's no reason to stop sending them, ey? Ultimately, it's the only way we'll ever improve our policies.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Razaak]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

Fury Warriors = dual wielders of two-handed weapons. That's the only exception I can think of.

 

[thatbloke]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

Ideally, we wouldn't have to have any loot rules.

We could add a case to the loot rules for every possible combination of items, but then we'd have a set of loot rules that were 10 times as long as they are now.

The rules would, ideally, be a set of guidelines instead of rules as I would hope that people would work out loot rules amicably between themselves.

Unfortunately that is not always the case, however, so we have this set of rules in place which we feel promotes the attitude that items should be as evenly spread out wherever possible and people would look at other people's items and pass if they thought that the other person would get a better upgrade by receiving this item.

Cases such as you describe can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis and if after coming to an amicable resolution someone still has an issue with these rules then <The Haven> is not the right guild for that person.

 

[Silk]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

If I were to apply for a raid position with my pally - should I apply as a retri with tank dualspec, or tank with retri dualspec?

Reason I ask is I want to be able to get retri items even though I am happy to tank most/all raids.

 

[Huung]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

...but it's about as useful as saying that "only one ring disadvantages dual-ring characters".

Unless something changed since the last time I played, every character has two rings - not every character dual wields. You also can't claim the DPS from an additional ring upgrade is anything like that of a weapon upgrade. Weapon upgrades are the single biggest sources of a DPS upgrade, by only allowing one weapon to be gained from a raid when two are essential for usage is massively disadvantaging any dual wield character. You wouldn't deny a tank his shield, so why deny a dual wielder an off-hand in addition to a main-hand?

Off-spec notwithstanding, weapons that are good for dual-weilders are only good for dual-weilders, as everyone else either uses a two-handed weapon, or a shield with a tanking weapon or a ranged DPS stats weapon. (There may be an obscure exception, somewhere, which I'll be happy to hear about, but I doubt it...)

True; so in fact that would lend itself even more to letting DPS roll on both an off-hand and a main-hand weapon in the one raid, as it would only be other dual-wield characters wanting the weapons anyway.
I wouldn't be in favour of letting a dual-wield character upgrade, say, their main-hand, then get another weapon later and claim it was for off-hand use, only to then use it in place of their new main-hand. However, I don't see anyone in The Haven being that dishonest.

It's not about "disadvantaging" dual-weilding DPS, but rather about making sure that all dual-weilding DPS have reasonable access to weapon drops.

Which they do if you let them roll on both a main and an off-hand. The problem arises from multiple upgrades in the same raid. Whilst a main-hand upgrade may appear early in the raid, a relatively better off-hand upgrade might drop later. Under this "one weapon only" rule it makes it almost risky to take what would be a clear upgrade. This problem can arise with other slots (such as when a tier piece and a non-tier piece would both be upgrades, and drop at different times in a raid) however, it's less likely to happen, and at least you know either way that "slot" will be upgraded - not the case with a dual-wielder only being allowed one weapon.

("Yeah, but tanks and spell users get the off-hand slot and that's unfair.")

Not so much. Unless under the rarest of circumstances, those people won't be competing for the same items. What do the two dual-weild DPS in the 10-man raid care if the healer already got a healing off-hand earlier and is now rolling on a healing weapon? What do the six dual-weild DPS in the 25-man raid care?

Under the same principle, what does the healer care if the DPS roll against each other on multiple weapons? The healer wouldn't be using that melee DPS weapon anyway.

I was under the impression that a recent patch did away with that sort of stuff, and that all weapons now are either one-hand or two-hand. But, I may be wrong on this one.

I'm unsure on this one, I haven't been in the game since 3.1, so you could well be right. However, even if this were the case, there are clearly better weapons suited to offhand use, due to their speeds. Every high level rogue/enh shammy wants a slow main-hand and a fast off-hand, so which weapon goes in which slot becomes clear. (Yes, lower geared enh shaman want slow/slow, but this does change with gearing).

I can see why you would use comparisons like the two rings etc, but really, a dual wielder needs both weapons to be effective. Depriving them of the ability to roll on both a main-hand and an off-hand upgrade is like allowing a two-handed class to only roll on every other weapon - it halves your chances of getting the upgrades you need. It also discourages me as a shaman to play enhancement, when I could play elemental and get upgrades on all my slots (shield and main-hand).

 

[Windzarko]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

To simplify something massively; if there's more than one dual-wielding character in the raid, it'd be unfair for one of them to win two weapon drops and the other(s) to get nothing, since weapons are so fundamentally important to melee DPS output, likely the single most important piece(s) of gear you equip. In the event that there are multiple dual-wielders, this evens the loot distribution out fairly. In the event that there is only one dual-wielder, or that all but one dual-wielder passes, then there is still a chance for one person to get two weapon drops in one raid; as I have said before, loot ALWAYS goes mainspec first. Someone who has won a weapon already in that raid just can't roll before the people who haven't won one.

Pretty simple, aye?

Same principle works for rings and trinkets; only being allowed to win one per raid even though you have two slots for them hopefully increases the number of people happily upgrading their gear, but the rules still allow for someone to get two of them mainspec in the event that nobody else wants the second (or subsequent) ones to drop.

Your concern was valid, Huung, so thanks for bringing it up so I could clarify.

Silk; if you want to raid on your paladin, we'll see what we're needing most by the time you're raid-geared for it, and ask if you'd be willing to go with that spec. If it was Ret, then having you listed as Dualspec Prot would be likely. Being Prot and listed as Dualspec Ret would be a little harder; for the most part, being listed as Dualspec for loot purposes would be to gear up people's tanking or healing specs for people that we know are likely to tank or heal for us (this is why I won't get myself listed for Dualspec Prot - not yet, at least - since I rarely tank and to be honest, wouldn't trust myself with serious raid tanking just yet. If it falls to Offspec, I'll still go for tanky loot, and that's how I'll roll with it for now, but we can easily stick other people up for Dualspec tank/heal; anyone interested should just ask and we can work it out)

 

[Huung]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

To simplify something massively; if there's more than one dual-wielding character in the raid, it'd be unfair for one of them to win two weapon drops and the other(s) to get nothing, since weapons are so fundamentally important to melee DPS output, likely the single most important piece(s) of gear you equip. In the event that there are multiple dual-wielders, this evens the loot distribution out fairly. In the event that there is only one dual-wielder, or that all but one dual-wielder passes, then there is still a chance for one person to get two weapon drops in one raid; as I have said before, loot ALWAYS goes mainspec first. Someone who has won a weapon already in that raid just can't roll before the people who haven't won one.

Pretty simple, aye?

Perfect! This is how I thought it had worked in the past, but wanted to get clarification to this effect. It just seemed strange that a dual-wielder wouldn't be able to get a second weapon in the one raid, meaning if there wasn't another dual wielder who wanted it, it would be going offspec
Glad to see that isn't the case however!

 

[Ashya]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

Common Sense, we has it.

 

[Windzarko]

Re: The Big Bad Raiding Thread: for anyone raiding with us or planning to raid with u

Simple rule of thumb is that it'll ALWAYS go mainspec first, unless we have an extremely good reason to give it to a Dualspec person, and I can't forsee that happening. It'll never go to offspec if someone needs it mainspec, ever.