The Great MMO Discussion

[Ronin Storm]

This started in the shoutbox with Tetsuo, me and Bob... here's the continuation.

There's a lot of MMOs and they've all had their bad points and some have have had really good points too.

This thread is initially to hold a discussion about the ins and outs of various (current) MMOs, why they always get compared to World of Warcraft, why there aren't any better sci-fi MMOs, and what makes a really good MMO...

Specifically, however, I don't want to see MMO-bashing (specifically or generally) or moaning about monthly fees; if you don't like something then fine, but say why it's not good and what you reckon could be done to fix it! Otherwise it's just bitchin' and there's enough of that in the world.

Still, to answer a specific point Tetsuo made in the shoutbox:

Yeah, I guess, but I'm supposing that LotR is the fiction most synonymous with the whole medieval good/evil concept

Honestly, I think LotR is just stealing such concepts from much older mythos. Norse mythology, for example, gives us the strong and mighty Vikings and their evil, netherworld foes, an absolute end of the world, giants, wolves, sea serpents... the whole nine yards.

And it's in those older concepts that we can draw some pretty cool ideas for MMOs. Woefully, Imperator never made it off the ground as a more "historical" rather than mythos-focused MMORPG. I wonder why a Greek mythos MMO hasn't already flown (or made itself widely successful if I've otherwise missed it).

That LotR has inspired many lines of books, games, films and so on is undeniable. However, I feel that the market becomes blinkered when thinking about fantasy in believing that LotR is the defining story/world, one story/world to rule them all, kind of thing. There's so much more... the question for MMO developers, I guess, is whether they can sell other lines of fantasy.

 

[elDiablo]

...why there aren't any better sci-fi MMOs...

One could argue that there are better sci-fi MMOs out there, but the fact that WoW has created such a large fan base (who are mostly unwilling to move away from it and try different MMOs, or are so set into it that they don't like other MMOs) and therefore such a large market share in the people who do play MMOs, that other MMOs have very little chance at competing MMOs MMOs. Yeah, those last two MMOs were just to see how many MMOs I could get in a single sentence

So, what I'm saying is that x% of the worlds population (w) do or will play MMOs. WoW has taken a larger percentage of that x% (which we will call y%), leaving z% ((x-y)%).

As y% >> x%, WoW will also be used as the "defining" MMO, while other MMOs are not likely to bring enough players away from WoW. That is, the number of people leaving WoW (deltaY) is smaller than the number of people joining WoW from either not playing (deltaW) or leaving other MMOs (deltaZ).

Erm, so yeah. More people are joining/staying with WoW than other MMOs, meaning other MMOs are not really going to get a chance.

And this isn't WoW-bashing, I'm just trying to think of the economics of the whole thing... Ramblings mostly... Sorry.

 

[Ronin Storm]

I remember seeing stats for worldwide populations of MMOs, probably a year or so ago. Lineage II was easily the top MMORPG worldwide, probably due to the incredible number of east-Asian players. I'll see if I can find the population graph...

My point with that, though, is that there's plenty of people to go around and that the existing MMOs are growing old. Other companies now feel it's worthwhile fielding competition to WoW as the playerbase, in their estimation, are ready for something new. I feel it's a shame that they feel they have to compete in the same genre...

[edit]Found... and found my stats are now wrong...![/edit]

The site with the charts:

http://www.mmogchart.com/

Also, the specific chart in question that shows WoW with the top population by a long, long way:

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

 

[thatbloke]

Unfortunately, I think, it is a case of waiting. Blizzard have managed to create a game that is successful on so many levels and has so much depth (assuming you have the right people to play with) that something that takes 3 hours to do within that game seems to take alot less time (as I have frequently found out).

The issue is immersing yourself... now I'm not saying that this doesn't happen in other games, but in WoW I found myself enjoying the whole fantasy world that has over the years been created and expanded upon by Blizzard.

I personally am seriously considering getting back into EVE online, I had an account on there for a couple of months and though my time may have been short it was enjoyable, and in many situations allowed me to do other stuff while the game was happily chugging away in the background.

The other one is, of course, the new LotR game. Not looked into it a whole much and tbh I'd like to try before I buy, but this could also get my attention.

The hook? getting people immersed into a world they know and love... With warcraft, the world and all of the lore associated with it has been built up over 10 years or so... Find out how many current WoW players have not played at least one of the original RTS games and i'll bet it isn't many.

The problem with scifi games as i see it: most of them are based on TV series and/or books that we know and love already, so people have an idea already of what to expect, because of the successes of shows like Star Trek and Firefly and such like. Because of this, more people have a pre-conception of what should and shouldn't be in a game that is Sci-Fi themed... This means that it is difficult to make a Sci-Fi game that will get a large number of people immersed... because their version of "Sci-Fi" doesn't fit.

With WoW, it's completely different, as it is a fantasy world taht has in part been driven by the fans and has only been around within the lifetimes of the players. It is much easier to get yourself (in my opinion) immersed (or addicted???) to a game where although alot of the mechanics are the same (go here, kill X number of baddies, come back, level up, etc.) the theme is something that is relatively new and "exciting."

When will the dominance of WoW end? I don't think that there will be one "killer app" that will take WoW off the market... but I do think that as people (like myself) are now getting bored with it, it will only be a matter of time before they start looking for a new fix and tehn find something else that will get them hooked... (World of Starcraft maybe? )

There's my $0.02

EDIT: another thing to consider is the time investment... as bambi just put it in another thread. some people will stay away from these type of games completely because the amount of time they have for gaming is limited and they don't feel that they would get a great enough reward for the amount of time/money they have...

 

[Ronin Storm]

Replying to Nanor's point in a different thread because it's so pertinent here...

if you fight a player with better gear you're fooked. I remember someone saying "20% skill 80% gear".

That's right on the nail, for me. I believe it's the MMORPG's greatest failing and, simultaneously, its most incredible success.

On one hand, I, who have played computer games for nearly two and a half decades, like to flaunt my skillz at shooters or whatever. Lack of practise usually means that someone who has played a lot recently tends to get the better of me but, in general, I find that I can step into any game and prove to be competent.

On the other hand, how does a player who has barely played computer games ever hope to play alongside me at many of these games? How does someone survive their first three hours of BF2 without thinking "f**k this, I'd rather gouge my eyes out than die over and over to sniper whores" (or, what they're probably really thinking "WTF, I've died again, and I don't know why... why should I put up with this frustration?!"). In an MMORPG, the odds become much more even, and it's time and effort in this game that matter. In this way, a relative newbie can go toe to toe with me and win, because they've put their effort in, learnt this game, walked through from n00b to g0d and got the phat loot.

I hate it. And love it. Just at the moment I hate it more. The mechanic the MMORPG presents doesn't please me, at the moment, because I can't, just today, play utterly brilliantly and have a hope in hell's chance of beating someone with 25-50 more play hours than me... worse, I can't even play with them, because they'll be playing zones/dungeons/raids/battlegrounds that are just too tough for me.

It's the divisions that I really hate, when it comes to it. I want to play at my pace, in my time, and still play with my friends. And MMOs don't let me do that. We all play together or we'll necessarily divide.

And that, I feel, is where Bambi's point comes back into view. In order to keep up with people who can put 40 hours a week, one needs to put in 40ish hours a week. If you can only put 10 hours a week, then you'll progress at 25% of the speed. Hell, if your optimise, you might make it up to 50% of the speed... but then are you playing the game in a way that pleases you? For me, no, as I only want to explore... the killing monsters, when it becomes repeated, loses its appeal quite quickly for me.

So, it's not about whether it's fun. It's about whether it's sufficiently fun and whether you get to play the way you enjoy.

In MMOs, I'm rapidly outpaced by people who play much more than me. That breaks the fun for me. Completely, just now.

I have thoughts on fixing that mechanic but I'll save those for another post, later.

 

[Taffy]

I've never really got into MMO's. They don't really appeal to me, as it seems that all the one's that are worth buying gameplay wise are fictitious and are (usually) either Sci-Fi or Fantasy. It appears that there is no real market for people who are interested in role-playing games, but don't really like flying on a unicorn's back all day, spitting at gremlins below. It's a shame, and maybe I will buy an MMO to see if I enjoy it after all, but I think that the genres should be expanded somewhat, to appeal to a wider audience.

 

[Ronin Storm]

World of Warcraft is an excellent example of some of the best features of MMORPGs and is probably the most accessible to date. If you're going to start on one, I'd start there. I've played maybe five, to date, plus played betas or trials for another three or so, and WoW was the one that kept me playing longest, by far. The original Everquest was my second longest jaunt but, now, will look aged and some of the mechanics will probably feel clumsy.

 

[PsiSoldier]

MMOFPS, Planetside, I like it because it's not only a MMO game, with tanks aircraft base battles and cool weapons, but it also requires skill which alot of MMOs don't.

 

[thatbloke]

MMOFPS, Planetside, I like it because it's not only a MMO game, with tanks aircraft base battles and cool weapons, but it also requires skill which alot of MMOs don't.

for once i agree with you.

I played planetside from the day of its release but then had to give up playing because I went to uni and I couldn't play it on my uni's net connection

But... This is another one I have also been thinking of getting back into... why? Because this game and this game only has given me some of the best gaming experiences I have ever had. (I also had a 65 year old Outfit leader! (Outfit = Clan/Guild/Fellowship, etc.)) One particular moment stands out, but that's a story for another thread

Psi, If you feel like a game over the weekend and showing me what's changed since I last played then i'll be around...

 

[PsiSoldier]

Not all that much has really changed, apart from the smaller things such as weapon power (Buffs & nerfs really) etc, but recently there's alot of development with new CE, the new Sunderer and upcoming Galaxy Gunship

 

[Nanor]

Planetside hurt my brain. It was all wtf pew pew and I got pwned once too often. It was cool, and for the time I played it I enjoyed it, but the future setting isn't my scene.

And Psi? You bloomin' hypocrit! WoW?! Bitch at me for playing it then you go play it?

 

[Cookalarcha]

MMORPGs are good in there own way. But the best mmorpgs are the free ones!

 

[Sephiroth]

if you ask me PS got destroyed when CC was released well i say CC but i mean BFRs, (BFRs suck so damn bad it hurts) i miss the good old days i played when was first released aswell... but i deleted my first char ages ago mainly because he was NC but meh!
yeah so i played eve online aswell i found that considerably confusing and never really got far in it, of course i've played wow and i've visited a friend who showed me FF11 which is basically wow but with a FF background.

 

[PsiSoldier]

And Psi? You bloomin' hypocrit! WoW?! Bitch at me for playing it then you go play it?

Blah, it's not like I'm shelling out cash for it *cough*.

 

[DeZmond]

I find the FPS MMO's tended to address that point, for the most part. Prior to the release of Neocron, there was a lot of discussion about the focus of the game and the effects of levelling up and what it would mean for combat. Because it was an FPS an element of skill did come into play and while it was easier at higher levels victory was not neccessarily ensured.
The trade-off, of course, was that in order to seperate high and low level players the low level ones had to go dungeon crawling and fight rats until they finished those missions and advanced enough.

 

[thatbloke]

Another issue I see with MMOs, which has kind of been brought up in another thread, is the fact that you can go into one and play against someone who has perhaps a hundred hours of play time and because you haven't (for whatever reason) put that time in, you get completely owned with no chance at all of fighting back... even though skill-wise you may be a better player


The main question here: How to give that sense of progression to the players who can/want to put in hundreds of hours play time, while at the same time allowing new players who can't/don't want to put in that same time investment beat a player that has put the time and effort in already???

It's a fine line and has been attempted in different ways but without turning the game into a quick-fire FPS like Quake (which isn't an MMO) I really can't see this being solved completely in any game. Ever.

 

[Ronin Storm]

The main question here: How to give that sense of progression to the players who can/want to put in hundreds of hours play time, while at the same time allowing new players who can't/don't want to put in that same time investment beat a player that has put the time and effort in already???

The core concept in (all?) MMORPGs is that of advancement. The mechanic is extremely simple:

• Kill monster.
• Get loot.
• Buy bigger sword.
• Kill bigger monster.
• Get phatter loot.
• Rinse. Repeat.

Thing is that this mechanic is, apparently, extremely addictive to a large portion of the existing gaming market. You get to perform actions that are rewarded and those rewards lead to greater power, which in turn allows you to perform greater actions for greater rewards...

It's a capitalist's dream; unchecked advancement purely through personal effort. It's also the reason why the economies in these games suffer from ludicrous inflation.

The trick is whether you're gaining power faster than me and, as a result, able to do things that I can't?

In one sense, across the wholeness of the population of WoW there are going to be many players who want to play at the same pace as you so, on that theory, you should be able to find groups who'll play only 5 hours a week and those who'll play 100 hours a week.

When it comes to existing communities such as THN where our intake is from all skill levels, spanning 30 or more years in age, and has people who'll play only 5 hours a week all the way to those who want to play 50 hours a week, we'd need a lot of players at each different "commitment" level (in terms of time) in order to give everyone here a fair chance at playing at their own pace and still finding friends to play with (in a fulfilling way).

I think that open communities like THN will always have problems with rate of advancement where advancement/achievement is the core mechanic of the game.

Unfortunately, I feel it's the only mechanic that will sell/maintain any substantial number of subscriptions per month at the scale of an MMORPG; after all, what keeps you playing in these games? Some people say "it's the community" and I believe they're half right (while we're staying as "some people" rather than individuals) as, if what they really want is social time, they can find much better interaction platforms than WoW. Ultimately, I feel they really want to play the advancement game, getting their phat loot and growing in power (in game terms), but not wanting to feel lonely while they do that. In the wider community that is WoW, it's only insular behaviour that should make one feel lonely while playing.

(Shame I'm an insular person, really.)

I believe there are other viable mechanics for MMORPGs but I don't think they'll sell millions or even thousands of subscriptions.

Personally, the thing that draws me to these games is exploration. Games like Anarchy Online utterly failed me because if I stepped outside of the zone for my level boundary then I would die ten times over. Everquest often suffered the same problem. In comparison, WoW was extremely forgiving, at least for the first 40 levels (I quit at 47), so I could stick to the path, stay smart, keep moving and make it to cool new places.

At the point where I can no longer explore in as a duo -- I primarily play with Rojaws, duoing, as that way I know we can stay in step -- I lose interest.

Another thing that might draw me is the role-play, but the overall advancement mechanics of WoW get in the way of role-play (see note at bottom).

Finally, I might play because I can build things, be they communities or towns or fortifications or whatever. Some have tried to offer this. Of course, they require that you've put in your requisite 50+ hours (often much more) in killing monsters so that you can earn the privilege of building stuff. Oh, and one often is required to kill even more monsters to be allowed to build the actually cool stuff.

Personally, I'm tired by the advancement/achievement model of MMORPG design. And, as thatbloke notes, I don't see a good way of allowing the XP hounds to play alongside the more "casual" players (see note 2). I also don't see the market offering a game that caters to my prime interests first and XP hounds second. Well, okay, I do... they're out there as MUSHes, but they have their fair share of problems too (a subject for a different thread if anyone's interested). When we're talking mainstream, graphical, wizz-bang stuff then I'm out of luck, apparently.

There again, maybe I've described my problem in one word: mainstream. Maybe I'm so fringe that these games can't support me?

Note on role-play in WoW and other MMORPG platforms: speaking in accents between killing mobs doesn't cut it for me, and there's utterly no way I have sufficient freedom of expression for exceptional and meaningful one-to-one or small group play. I cut my online role-play teeth on MUSHes where beautiful, interactive prose was the order of the day; WoW cannot provide that and that really bugs me.

Note 2 on "casual" players: I hate the term "casual" players. Because I generally play less than 10 hours a week I'm termed a "casual" player. F**k that. I'm pretty f**king hardcore about by games, when it comes to it. I run a community for online gamers, for crying out loud! I just don't have the space to give to games, right now. I'm not f**king "casual", I'm just "hardcore with a tight schedule". F**k casual. </rant off>

 

[PsiSoldier]

Another issue I see with MMOs, which has kind of been brought up in another thread, is the fact that you can go into one and play against someone who has perhaps a hundred hours of play time and because you haven't (for whatever reason) put that time in, you get completely owned with no chance at all of fighting back... even though skill-wise you may be a better player

Aye, another reason I love PS... A BR1 could easily kill a BR25/CR5 if they have the skill, it's not level based. Higher 'levels' give you access to more stuff, but doesn't actually make you any better!

 

[Taffy]

Note 2 on "casual" players: I hate the term "casual" players. Because I generally play less than 10 hours a week I'm termed a "casual" player. F**k that. I'm pretty f**king hardcore about by games, when it comes to it. I run a community for online gamers, for crying out loud! I just don't have the space to give to games, right now. I'm not f**king "casual", I'm just "hardcore with a tight schedule". F**k casual. </rant off>

That's the angriest i've ever heard you, Ronin. That's why I never bothered with MMO's. It's stressful and you need to commit many hours to them. Frankly, i'd rather split up those hours into several different games, namely BF2PR, CoD2 and a bit of MTW:2.

 

[Nanor]

Blah, it's not like I'm shelling out cash for it *cough*.

You mean you were bitching at me because I paid for it? Heh, I was under the impression it was my money..