5 People Burned Alive For Being Witches.
- Thread starter T-Bone
- Start date
PsiSoldier
Well-Known Member
Religion.
Ahey, 
I would like to say for the record that I find this to be both healthy and helpful. He doesn't even have to actually believe what h'e saying, he just has to give the position and thorough and solid defense.
Really, it's the only thing that will ever help us find the flaws in our reasoning. And no matter how many people agree with one particular line of reasoning, there will be flaws.
Finding the flaws makes us better people. Keep it up, D!
Cheers,
J.
I would like to say for the record that I find this to be both healthy and helpful. He doesn't even have to actually believe what h'e saying, he just has to give the position and thorough and solid defense.
Really, it's the only thing that will ever help us find the flaws in our reasoning. And no matter how many people agree with one particular line of reasoning, there will be flaws.
Finding the flaws makes us better people. Keep it up, D!
Cheers,
J.
waterproofbob
Junior Administrator
Firstly I'm against this whole heartedly I actually find the concept of punishing someone on the basis of them essentially believing something different from you abhorent.
Various people have said that we should do something about this. I'm curious about what people think can be done. We live in a far from truly civilised world ourselves, how can we truly judge and condemn these people. We know nothing of their culture, it has taken many years for our society to change as it has. Even within our own countries there are still cases of people being violently beaten up and killed for living in the wrong part of a city. How do we think we can bring some great change to these people when there are such terrible conflicts going on in this country that are far far from resolved and are if anything getting worse.
I don't know what the answer is I'm merely making the point.
Can people also stop blanket blaming religion for everything that is at fault in the world. I'm a christian I believe in God. It is belief, it isn't logical but I have experienced things that have confirmed that belief. I'm far from perfect, most of the other christians I know have not been forced into their faiths by their parents. I honestly believe that it is not religion that is at fault it is certain elements who use religion as a banner for their causes. Using Christianity as an example the issue is not with religious belief and faith. The issue is with certain elements of the church.
Yes religion has been used as an excuse to do terrible horrific things but it is not the fault of the faith that has caused this but the misinterpretation by humans. Humans are fickle. Like the concept of Marxism, it can never truly succeed for all do to the greed of man and the desire to possess.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this particularly, I have of late felt a lot of animosity towards "religion" about here and have only just got round to writing anything in a retort. This could have gone in various places but it ended up here.
Back to my original point, although I in no way agree with what occurred does anyone here have a solution to try and affect a change on the world, or on societies and cultures such as this one that doesn't result in us as a nation just appearing to be an invading force. Forcing our far from perfect western culture on yet another country that doesn't want it. Even our aid efforts in some areas have been vastly inefficient, as people with a lot of money have misunderstood what really needed to happen and have thought they knew what was best.
Various people have said that we should do something about this. I'm curious about what people think can be done. We live in a far from truly civilised world ourselves, how can we truly judge and condemn these people. We know nothing of their culture, it has taken many years for our society to change as it has. Even within our own countries there are still cases of people being violently beaten up and killed for living in the wrong part of a city. How do we think we can bring some great change to these people when there are such terrible conflicts going on in this country that are far far from resolved and are if anything getting worse.
I don't know what the answer is I'm merely making the point.
Can people also stop blanket blaming religion for everything that is at fault in the world. I'm a christian I believe in God. It is belief, it isn't logical but I have experienced things that have confirmed that belief. I'm far from perfect, most of the other christians I know have not been forced into their faiths by their parents. I honestly believe that it is not religion that is at fault it is certain elements who use religion as a banner for their causes. Using Christianity as an example the issue is not with religious belief and faith. The issue is with certain elements of the church.
Yes religion has been used as an excuse to do terrible horrific things but it is not the fault of the faith that has caused this but the misinterpretation by humans. Humans are fickle. Like the concept of Marxism, it can never truly succeed for all do to the greed of man and the desire to possess.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this particularly, I have of late felt a lot of animosity towards "religion" about here and have only just got round to writing anything in a retort. This could have gone in various places but it ended up here.
Back to my original point, although I in no way agree with what occurred does anyone here have a solution to try and affect a change on the world, or on societies and cultures such as this one that doesn't result in us as a nation just appearing to be an invading force. Forcing our far from perfect western culture on yet another country that doesn't want it. Even our aid efforts in some areas have been vastly inefficient, as people with a lot of money have misunderstood what really needed to happen and have thought they knew what was best.
Sephiroth
In Cryo Sleep
I agree with bob about religion not being the only problem in the world, furthering what he said about western countries; mega corporations which originate from places like the UK and the US cause plenty of problems in the countries that they exploit, you'd be able to support them a bit more if they actually gave people proper wages, work conditions etc...
But in THIS instance, the problem is religion, and the upbringing of the people involved (i mean the villagers who were doing the burning not the so called "witches") is also part of this problem, even if we were to walk in there and force western beliefs and culture onto them isn't it unlikely that they'd stop? I mean how many times in the UK has say... being a Protistant been punishable by death? It didn't stop people from believing. And further more, these people wouldn't have an insentive quite as extreme as death if there was one at all.
I'd suppose that you'd have to slowly move the population away from the idea of burning "witches" it'd take more time and effort than any of the government would care to put into it. Meaning that they'll have to stop on their own like Europe did, of course this'll probably take alot longer, if it ever happens at all.
But in THIS instance, the problem is religion, and the upbringing of the people involved (i mean the villagers who were doing the burning not the so called "witches") is also part of this problem, even if we were to walk in there and force western beliefs and culture onto them isn't it unlikely that they'd stop? I mean how many times in the UK has say... being a Protistant been punishable by death? It didn't stop people from believing. And further more, these people wouldn't have an insentive quite as extreme as death if there was one at all.
I'd suppose that you'd have to slowly move the population away from the idea of burning "witches" it'd take more time and effort than any of the government would care to put into it. Meaning that they'll have to stop on their own like Europe did, of course this'll probably take alot longer, if it ever happens at all.
decky101
In Cryo Sleep
Ok, so let's pretend for example that they were witches. This makes this abominable act justifiable? Heart for sale. Contact Big D @ THN if interested.
(In all honesty though, I quite enjoy how D plays Devil Advocate all the time, one sided opinionism doesn't do much for debate)
People do many horrible things in the name of God. Wars are fought, acts of terrorism committed, even acts such as these. It seems our generation and indeed, many preceding generations lack a fundamental understanding of what God wants from us (as I see it anyway) Misinterpretation plays a key part in such events. People are able to somehow find within "God's texts" whether it be the Quran or the Bible messages sent by God telling us what to do. The basic incomprehension of the Taliban and similar groups that God favours a certain land mass, and in so doing so, he gives permission to individuals, even encourages them to take action against anyone who harms such a place, be it through propaganda or attack..... The sheer idiocy of such an idea astounds me.
As Jesus once said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" people start out with the right intentions... I mean, who wants to believe that this life is all there is, this brief, transient period of existence that is a tiny speck in comparison to the universal lifespan. Think about it, after death, an eternity of nothing. Nothing at all. I do not mean this in a blasphemous way, but the idea of God is perfect for many. Someone you love has just passed away, you don't know where to turn, you don't know if you will ever see them again, but there it is! The answer to all your problems, God!
To my mind, the basic idea of God is a good one. I am not afraid to say that I absolutely 100% believe in God. I'm also a Catholic, and although many people adopt the view that their religions view is the right one, and that every other religion is wrong, I for one, am "Au Contraire." My belief is that it's how you show you believe in God that is important, the praying, the almsgiving, being a good citizen in general..... I have strayed very far off the point I was trying to make. Bob, as usual, has capitulated very succinctly my sentiments exactly. We ourselves cannot judge these actions, as our ancestors are guilty of similar crimes. How many of these people do you believe to be well educated in the "do"s and "don't"s of western society? By my reckoning, none. Lest we forget less than 70 years ago when Hitler's Nazi regime decimated the majority of the population of Jews in Germany. Lest we forget how America dropped two H-bombs, one in Hiroshima and one in Nagasaki, with an estimated kill count of.....220,000. Do you think America and Germany were educated in these do's and don'ts of western society? I think so, and yet still these atrocities occured. It's easy to look upon these people with contempt, but in truth, we know very little.
In spite of what I have just said, however, the burning of 5 people for "being witches" is still a great humanitarian crisis, which in my opinion needs to be resolved. Such events may occur on a regular basis for all we know, and the individuals who are responsible need to be brought to see the error of their ways.
"To err is human, to forgive is divine."
"To err is human, to arr is pirate."
Bradstreet
In Cryo Sleep
Before I write anything else, I should head this with the straightforward declaration that I think burning people alive is bad and should not happen for any reason. That said...
I'm an atheist myself, and have a healthy distrust of religion, but I'd like to know how those people who are blaming religion (rather than say the people who burned other people) see the pattern of cause and effect. With a social history hat on, I don't think that, in this case, religion makes bad things happen; I think bad things make religion happen. In other words, the community suffers (poverty, crop failure, disease, or some other adversity) and creates an explanation, which may involve supernatural agents. It's a fine distinction, but to me religion, in an instance like this, is a structure that allows for the expression of particular behaviours and impulses, and can be developed to legitimate them. So if you say this is the fault of religion, you're perhaps not acknowledging the underlying processes of scape-goating, or human drives towards self-protection, and the destruction of that which is alien. That's not that I think those are good things, but I do think they may be what makes religion happen rather than products of it.
On a related note, I don't think saying this is the behaviour of a different century is helpful, as again it's a way of distancing ourselves from these actions, and being able, on some level at least, to dismiss them. I think we are conditioned to read certain activities in certain places as 'backwards', 'barbaric', etc. but will use very different structures of interpretation when faced with similar behaviours in societies we regard as inherently 'civilized', 'advanced', etc. I'm not going to google through headlines, because it seems like a pretty soul-destroying way to spend my afternoon, but I'm sure I can find accounts of people being burned alive, of group murders, and of large numbers of people watching horrific events without intervening, in this country and many others. That's not, of course, to condone the witch-burning, but it is to say that describing it as backwards or 'third-worldy' seems like a mechanism to avoid confronting what Burns called 'man's inhumanity to man', and to create a rather false sense of security and superiority.
Finally (deep breath): the Big D controversy. I don't believe in witches. But I do have a Wittgensteinian view of language and perception ('the limits of my language are the limits of my world' and all that jazz). The language and structures of thought that are available to us alter the possible ways in which we can perceive the world, and since the world is available to us only through the various mechanisms of perception, that means that they alter the world. I also believe that there is an ethics of historical or cultural difference: in other words that, although we will never be able to access them directly or fully, we should try to understand different ways of per- or conceiving the world as the only way of getting a sense of how the world is at different places and in different times. It feels like I risk being rather tasteless bringing a thought exercise into a thread about something so appallingly concrete, in which case I apologise, but: if someone knows they're a witch (and I mean knows not believes -- this is an exercise in phenomenology (the experience of being in the world) as opposed to ontology (the misguided view that you can step back and see the world objectively)), and they know that if they do a certain thing it will hurt somebody, but they do it anyway, and if that person, who knows that a witch has done something to hurt them suffers as a result, is person A guilty of witchcraft?
I'm an atheist myself, and have a healthy distrust of religion, but I'd like to know how those people who are blaming religion (rather than say the people who burned other people) see the pattern of cause and effect. With a social history hat on, I don't think that, in this case, religion makes bad things happen; I think bad things make religion happen. In other words, the community suffers (poverty, crop failure, disease, or some other adversity) and creates an explanation, which may involve supernatural agents. It's a fine distinction, but to me religion, in an instance like this, is a structure that allows for the expression of particular behaviours and impulses, and can be developed to legitimate them. So if you say this is the fault of religion, you're perhaps not acknowledging the underlying processes of scape-goating, or human drives towards self-protection, and the destruction of that which is alien. That's not that I think those are good things, but I do think they may be what makes religion happen rather than products of it.
On a related note, I don't think saying this is the behaviour of a different century is helpful, as again it's a way of distancing ourselves from these actions, and being able, on some level at least, to dismiss them. I think we are conditioned to read certain activities in certain places as 'backwards', 'barbaric', etc. but will use very different structures of interpretation when faced with similar behaviours in societies we regard as inherently 'civilized', 'advanced', etc. I'm not going to google through headlines, because it seems like a pretty soul-destroying way to spend my afternoon, but I'm sure I can find accounts of people being burned alive, of group murders, and of large numbers of people watching horrific events without intervening, in this country and many others. That's not, of course, to condone the witch-burning, but it is to say that describing it as backwards or 'third-worldy' seems like a mechanism to avoid confronting what Burns called 'man's inhumanity to man', and to create a rather false sense of security and superiority.
Finally (deep breath): the Big D controversy. I don't believe in witches. But I do have a Wittgensteinian view of language and perception ('the limits of my language are the limits of my world' and all that jazz). The language and structures of thought that are available to us alter the possible ways in which we can perceive the world, and since the world is available to us only through the various mechanisms of perception, that means that they alter the world. I also believe that there is an ethics of historical or cultural difference: in other words that, although we will never be able to access them directly or fully, we should try to understand different ways of per- or conceiving the world as the only way of getting a sense of how the world is at different places and in different times. It feels like I risk being rather tasteless bringing a thought exercise into a thread about something so appallingly concrete, in which case I apologise, but: if someone knows they're a witch (and I mean knows not believes -- this is an exercise in phenomenology (the experience of being in the world) as opposed to ontology (the misguided view that you can step back and see the world objectively)), and they know that if they do a certain thing it will hurt somebody, but they do it anyway, and if that person, who knows that a witch has done something to hurt them suffers as a result, is person A guilty of witchcraft?
Bradstreet
In Cryo Sleep
*raises hand*. I do. I can't remember the exact words, but Vera Brittain has a beautiful phrase -- something like 'there is only the brief space between darkness and darkness in which to fulfill our responsibilities towards other people and towards ourselves'. It may be the most profoundly ethical statement I have ever read.
Not really. Not an eternity of nothing -- not any experience of it at all. Just not being (and not knowing anything about it).
Ahey,
Eeeek....
While it's hard to argue against that, it nevertheless brings the phrase "white man's burden" into the fray, and that phrase is particularly repulsive to me...
Cheers,
J.
Eeeek....
While it's hard to argue against that, it nevertheless brings the phrase "white man's burden" into the fray, and that phrase is particularly repulsive to me...
Cheers,
J.