5 yrs on

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
Yes okay I do agree with justice, I never said anything about not giving them justice. I just said I could forgive them. Many of these terrorists are young brainwashed men who see themselves as freedom fighters of their cause. To us 9/11 was a terrorist attack, but to some radical islamic groups this was a victory against what they saw as a tyranical nation (America).
 

Cpt.Spazmo

In Cryo Sleep
Many of these terrorists are young brainwashed men who see themselves as freedom fighters of their cause. To us 9/11 was a terrorist attack, but to some radical islamic groups this was a victory against what they saw as a tyranical nation (America).

I believe, by any definition, the strike against the trade towers was a terrorist act. It was intended to kill civilian in an area with no military targets.
 

Macca

Member
Yes okay I do agree with justice, I never said anything about not giving them justice. I just said I could forgive them. Many of these terrorists are young brainwashed men who see themselves as freedom fighters of their cause. To us 9/11 was a terrorist attack, but to some radical islamic groups this was a victory against what they saw as a tyranical nation (America).

I fail to see how killing over 3000 innocent civilians is a victory against a tyrancial nation.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
I suppose, from their point of view, they might say that these people are supporting a regime that they feel to be tyrannical, and as such that these people are complicit with that regime and perhaps even directly responsible for the regime's actions. They may feel that there are no civilians in what they might see as a war on their culture: only allies and enemies.

If they believed that then I believe they are wrong. After all, the US and the UK practice a representative democracy, not a participatory democracy, and as such we hope we get someone in power who adequately represents our views. If not, well tough luck. If Blair wants to go to war, well he goes through the motions and goes to war. If you don't like it... don't vote for him next time (or feel free to take part in any one of a number of anti-war protests... but I'm not entirely sure they do any good in this country).

No, they were civilians in the twin trade towers and they were just doing what they do. Suicidal lunatics (they'd claim "martyrs") killed them. I'd agree that when compared to natural disasters, or famine and disease, it's small fry. But in terms of unwarranted human endeavour, it's still pretty despicable and, until then, apparently unthinkable.
 

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
Look I am trying to make a point, I also think it was dispicable, however it is all a point of view, not just this but everything. Please don't take your anger out on me, these are not my views. Also killing civilians has been done throughout history by so called 'democratic' countries so that is a very weak statement.
 

BiG D

Administrator
Staff member
I fail to see how killing over 3000 innocent civilians is a victory against a tyrancial nation.
Did it scare people? Did it fuck with air travel for years to come? They've got the governments throwing billions of dollars into absolutely useless "security measures," not to mention the privacy infringements that money brings us.

By all means, they've won, and then some. I bet the whole thing worked better than they ever could've imagined it would, even in their wildest dreams.

http://www.wondermark.com/d/220.html
 

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
Also have we found Bin Laden? What has the wars in Afganistan and Iraq given us? Almost 40,000 iraqi civilians dead, over 2,500 american soldiers dead since the end of the war in iraq, and the british and numerous other armies have had deaths along with them. In their way of thinking they are having victory after victory!
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
Gibsonfire said:
Please don't take your anger out on me, these are not my views.

Ooo, hang on. I'm not angry at you in the slightest! I'm sorry if I came across that way to you, as it was very far from my intention. In fact, my intention was to inspect your points with some elaboration on what I believe might be in these people's thinking, then state my thoughts on why I believe that doesn't stand up to my inspection. You are providing an alternate point of view to mine and that's just fine by me.

So, chill. S'all cool with me, here. I hope this post finds you the same way!

Gibsonfire said:
Also killing civilians has been done throughout history by so called 'democratic' countries so that is a very weak statement.

I wasn't trying to imply that somehow democracy has a role to play in not being responsible for terrorist acts, but rather that the practice of a representative democracy should not be grounds for another nation to seek to treat civilians as targets, as if they were complicit in their government's actions.

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." [Winston Churchill]

It's a bit of a tangent, but I tend to agree with this quote. Our form of democracy is a watered down version that really seems to revolve around a civil service bureaucracy; we vote on who speaks in the House for us and very little else. I might even vehemently disagree with my government, but I'm a potential target of terrorism just the same. Disquieting, really.
 

PsiSoldier

Well-Known Member
In a way I understand why they do it.
America practicaly invades with no real reason and kills civilians, so what did America expect to get in return?
 
P

Phryxus

Guest
Psi, after looking at the more in-depth comments of the other posts i find comments such as these:

In a way I understand why they do it.
America practicaly invades with no real reason and kills civilians, so what did America expect to get in return?

exceptionally hard to swallow. You may think that this sort of thing is the epitome of truthfulness and direct speaking, but it just comes across as terribly insensitive and thoughtless.

I'm not saying there isn't any truth in what you're saying, retaliation and resistance is to be expected when a presence so large as America makes itself felt in such a wildly different culture as in the Middle East, but the events of 9/11 are by no means 'deserved' as a result of what sections of the United States are responsible for. I don't think I need to remind anyone, as others have posted this exact information before, that those who died were non-combatants, regular people, as well as the emergency services that effectively gave their lives to save them. You may well equate this form of response as more than adequate repayment for recent incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan, but as Ronin has said it is unforgivable, unforgettable and as a result deserves more remembrance and caution than most historical events, and as a result, more awareness when it comes to talking about it.

If I were to take your earlier post and apply it out of context, say, in terms of Nazism and the Holocaust:

Meh, what's done is done no? Forgive and forget?

What effect do you think that would have? To forget the past is to run the risk of making the same mistake again, simply at a later date once the echoes have dispersed. Using the example of the Holocaust once again, that also is an unforgivable event - the deaths of literally millions of people, destroyed by a fascist regime. In fact, whilst banning the images and symbols of Nazism, Germans are actively taught about the 1939-1945 period, just for the reason of prevention, raising knowledge of how it could happen once more.

In base terms, what i'm trying to say is that these events deserve greater recognition than you allow. One can not simply 'forget' or 'blank out' darker aspects of human nature, they need to be remembered, they need to be marked, nay, etched into our minds. A cavalier attitude towards monumental events is not the way to approach them, you have to take them into consideration and use them as focal points to build a better future, or perhaps even to allow us to survive long enough to even have a future.
 

Gibsonfire

In Cryo Sleep
In base terms, what i'm trying to say is that these events deserve greater recognition than you allow. One can not simply 'forget' or 'blank out' darker aspects of human nature, they need to be remembered, they need to be marked, nay, etched into our minds. A cavalier attitude towards monumental events is not the way to approach them, you have to take them into consideration and use them as focal points to build a better future, or perhaps even to allow us to survive long enough to even have a future.

Very true statement.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
I disagree with Psi. The whole fact of the matter is this: Some very stupid people did an extremely stupid thing. sure, you can forgive them for the horrendous tradegy they set upon the world, but that does Not make what they did RIGHT It's incorrect to assume that forgiveness is something we all have and that we can all do It's like patience, a virtue. Some people have it, others don't. I put a question upon psi. If the same thing had happened where you live and you lost a parent, and a few mates, would you "get over it?" Would you say what you said which is:All I can be bothered to say is get the hell over it. Sh*t happens. If everyone did that, there would be no such thing as religion and many of the very significant events that happened would have been forgotten and lost forever. For christ's sake without people remembering the past, we would not exist.

Those are just a few of my views on this tragic event, and I think the debate will forever ensue. 9/11 is a topic that is forever debatable. The people who did it were so twisted that they actually died believing what they did was right, that they died for a just cause. Psi, you have your views and I respect that but your view is completly based upon the fact that you obviously haven't experienced anguish like that before. Your view is like having your mother murdered and you just saying I don't give a "shit". I'm sorry if this offends you but thats exactly the manner I feel your speaking.Personally I would like to respect those who died in the twin towers and the pentagon. Let us not forget it was involved as well So I will say a prayer: Let eternal peace gant on to them, O lord and let the souls of them and all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace

Let the debate continue.
 

PsiSoldier

Well-Known Member
You don't understand what I've said.
Read it again.
Nowhere did I say it was right, nowhere did I say everyone should forgive.
 
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