A missive from our esteemed leader.

[Bradstreet]

It's a bit tricky reproducing all the spelling and grammatical errors, but I'll have a go:

A little advice.

You are welcome to express your opinions and views on anything that is discussed in /g. /raid or on teamspeak, within the guild and realm rules, and I nor anyone else [sic] should ever deny you that.

However, if you feel the need to start an argument or express a very strong opinion/feeling as before, then please do so in whispers. On two occaisons [sic] now you have gotten [sic] like that, the previous time during a raid, interrupting the raid leader and generally causing trouble. Please do not do so again.

Flattered as I am at the notion that I am capable of 'generally causing trouble', I am extremely angry at having been sent this. For those who are not aware, the two occasions Windzarko refers to are:

I (and others) have repeatedly asked T-bone not to use the c-word. I have always attempted to do so in a cheerful and reasonably lighthearted way, and have not allowed it to develop into a big issue. On one occasion, however, T-bone began to argue with me over the propriety (or not) of the word, and I responded heatedly. I am very grateful that he has subsequently moderated his language, at least in my hearing, and respect him for doing so.

Last night, I logged on to warcraft and saw several lame and time-worn jokes about women's place being on their knees or dead in guild chat. I typed 'Okay, cut the crap, guys'. Windzarko responded by telling me I was humourless, accusing me of being a representative of the madness of political correctness, denying that his role as guild leader is to encourage respect for players.

I find it difficult to see how either of these cases is being read as me starting arguments. I am also aware that I am not the first person to be offended by Lithaella's bullying and aggressive approach. I would like the guild to consider the standards of behaviour and communication we think appropriate in someone we have as our leader.

 

[Windzarko]

It's a bit tricky reproducing all the spelling and grammatical errors, but I'll have a go:

How wonderfully condescending of you.

I (and others) have repeatedly asked T-bone not to use the c-word. I have always attempted to do so in a cheerful and reasonably lighthearted way, and have not allowed it to develop into a big issue. On one occasion, however, T-bone began to argue with me over the propriety (or not) of the word, and I responded heatedly. I am very grateful that he has subsequently moderated his language, at least in my hearing, and respect him for doing so.

You exploded in the middle of a raid situation in front of everyone else present for that raid on teamspeak. You interrupted T-bone while he was giving tactics, and were detrimental in general. This is not acceptable behaviour. If you'd have trouble with the way he was talking, you should have whispered him and asked him to moderate his language, or if you needed to vocalise your opinion on it, you should have waited until after the raid at the very least, preferably asking for a private conversation.

T-bone was the raid leader, and one of the top officers; publicly exploding at him (or any other such officer) like that was unacceptable behaviour. In hindsight, I should have told you then to avoid the second occurrence...

Last night, I logged on to warcraft and saw several lame and time-worn jokes about women's place being on their knees or dead in guild chat. I typed 'Okay, cut the crap, guys'. Windzarko responded by telling me I was humourless, accusing me of being a representative of the madness of political correctness...

Firstly, you're grossly generalising AND misquoting. I have no idea where you got this "or dead" nonsense from, and the joke was aimed at a single, in-game character. Not you. Not women in general. But no, you had to take offence anyway. Anyhoo, rather than whispering the people in question (not just me, thank you very much) and requesting (politely or otherwise) that they moderate their chatter, you launch straight into "cut the crap" and an arguement about sexist comment.

If you seriously, truly believed that I made ANY racist, sexist or otherwise intolerant comments with any kind of seriousness, then I truly pity you. And despite what you've said, you ARE one of these crusaders for political correctness.

...denying that his role as guild leader is to encourage respect for players.

I will encourage respect for players and fellow guildies. Until they kick up a tremendous fuss in guild chat and get offensive at me and my friends/officers as you did. At which point I see precisely no reason to have any respect for them.

I find it difficult to see how either of these cases is being read as me starting arguments. I am also aware that I am not the first person to be offended by Lithaella's bullying and aggressive approach. I would like the guild to consider the standards of behaviour and communication we think appropriate in someone we have as our leader.

"Arguements" was the wrong word, I'll admit. The first time wasn't an arguement, it was a barrage of pointless interruption.

Bullying? Aggressive approach? Please give examples of times I have done this. Because save times when guildmates were being over the line behaviour-wise, I don't recall ever having bullied someone.

You have reacted like this to my sending you a private request to avoid causing further disruptions to the community or to our raiding. You apparently have no respect for the established leadership of this guild, be it for myself or other officers. And you are further kicking up more fuss now.

So here is my warning; this is your third strike. You are now on zero tolerance. Cause further disruption and you shall be removed from the guild for having a greater negative impact than is tolerable.

And I will restate this one final time: everyone is entitled to their opinions. That is a fundamental right that I will never deny, nor should anyone else. You can think whatever you want, and you can express your opinions all you want, so long as you do not cause such disruptions. If you have a serious problem with someone is saying or doing, keep it private. There is NO need to cause such public disruption.

 

[Auryn]

I think you are getting worked up about nothing Bradstreet. Ppl joke around, I dont feel attacked as a woman when i see those things and you cant expect other ppl to live according to your opinion. Get off your high horse and off the warpath.

 

[Bradstreet]

Nothing more than I expected really. Never mind.

 

[Huung]

Male gamers are pretty much the crudest people around, as Im sure you'll know

Having not been in the guild for a loooong time, but knowing Lithy personally, I can vouch that he's a damn fine man who not only knows his stuff inside out, but makes all the effort he can on keeping The Haven alive and affluent with fun people.

Being a community guild does mean that generally jokes will be pushed a little further than PC boundaries, and most people will become more accepting of these. However, for those that still take offence, or just dislike the vulgarity of certain jokes/situations - thats what /leave is for. Hell, I used to ignore the trade channel enough for exactly those reasons - idiots (Chainsaw anyone?) blocking up my space with pointless crap.

A Guild Leader's duty is to lead a guild, the clue is in the name. Lithy may well act as an ambassador of The Haven to other guilds, but within The Haven, you cant expect him to try and moderate everything thats said to keep everyone happy, or /g would become dead.

Maybe Lithy didnt go about it the right way, but dragging this in the open for everyone to see also isnt sorting it the right way. I agree with Lithy in as much as if you have a problem with someone, thats why /w is there - speaking openly against the Guild Leader in /g is only going to undermine his authority, and as such you'll get a very defensive responce.

In short, I dont believe Lithy's ability to act as an ambassador for The Haven to those outside of the guild should be called into question publically, or even at all for that matter. You complain about an "aggressive" approach, but thats only due to a more laid back one failing to get responces in the past.

 

[T-Bone]

OK, heres the deal as far as I am concerned. I should mention that I said this in /g last night but it was drowned out in the ensuing spam.

You got offended by someones joke, and we should respect that. However, you should also be aware that the person who said the joke did not mean to cause any offense and you should respect that.

There are two types of people in this world. There are those who believe that everything is equal to point fun at and that everything is valid for a joke, be it gender, religion, nationality or even race. I am one of those people and Im guessing most of the people in the guild are the same. Then there are the other type of people who believe that a certain degree of censorship has to be used most of the time, which you fall under.

I am not saying you are wrong to feel this but I believe the way you expressed your displasure was wrong, as do I believe the way Umb expressed his was wrong. So there is fault on both sides I have to feel and both sides are probably due an apology as well as the chance to apologise.

I am trying to remain neutral here after our previous run-in but on that note I must say that I could take credit for censoring my language but the truth is I havent been and it's just been coincidence that you haven't heard it. While I may use the "c-word" from time to time as an insult, I am an equal opportunity expletist and will also, and often, use the word "dick" in exactly the same manner and for exactly the same purpose.

I also have to say that I do find the concept of being offended by a word or joke, that isn't directed at you as an insult, quite silly but that's just me.

Anyway, that's just my two cents and I hope they help.

 

[Huung]

...I am an equal opportunity expletist...

That is one of the best things Ive ever heard

 

[Birdy]

I side more with bradstreet on this...

Its a mans guild. Nuf said. I have only problems with one word said, not coz of its meaning but because i think it sounds nasty. Mayeb thats the spelling on sound of the letters as they are used.... If you said vagina i wouldnt get upset.

Maybe we should be a bit more understanding of those who are not quite used to that style of humor.... remeber people, its not everyones game

 

[Zhinrak]

I did speak briefly to lithy about this on TS after the incident had happened to try and help clarfiy a few things.

With regards to the incident yesterday i feel it was needlessly escelated by both parties involved. Yes Bradstreet could have asked more politely that the statement that was given, but i feel making it in /g as a public statement was needed. We need to keep in mind that alot of our members are verterans in the sence weve been here for ages so we are used to it and some of the comments we make [even in a joking manner] can sometimes be incredibly offensive and though 90% of the guild know we dont mean it there is a chance someone will be offended. So this public statement should have served as a reminder that some times we do need to tone it down a bit.

However not once in the said incident did i see Bradstreed try to accuse anyone of actually being sexist directly, and all that was needed was a simple explination that no one in our guild is sexist or racist and anyone who is will be dealt with accordingly. i personally feel Lith went a little too far to acuse Bradstreet of being a Crusader of Political Correctness.

In short a note for both parties. Bradstreet, as much as such comments irritate you it may be something you will have to learn to accept with our guild. a polite reminder now and then may help to cut it back a little but avoid such comments as "cut the crap", i wasnt around to witness the incident about Tuldurs foul scottish langauge so i can't really comment on it. i Can tell your quite an outspoken individual who will happily make a point when something offends you or makes you uncomfortable but as i said try to cut back.

To Lith, you make a few fair points, but there have been a handful of situations where i feel that your way of dealing with it, though is often effective, can be very abrasive and sometimes alittle harsh. If you were just an officer this probably would be fine, but as a guild leader, in my eyes you need to try to diffuse such situations without resorting to accusastions and insults so quickly and perhaps try and take a bit more time to take things into consideration and try to observe things from an otusiders view.

Eitherway i hope we can look past this unpleasantry, and try to better ourselves from it.

 

[Chumpo]

Its a mans guild. Nuf said.

It is not a mans guild, and the suggestion that it is is more sexist than anything we can say.

Also people can not go around just deciding they dont like the sound of a word and telling people they cant say it. If i decided that i didnt like the word, say, Mob or Tank then imagine how many arguments there will be.

People just have to face it, you cant control what other people say or do, and to try is to live a miserable life.

To everyone out there who has a fit every time someone says something: IGNORE IT!

 

[Bradstreet]

Whether people agree with my PC sentiments or not (and it's fine if people don't), my point is: do you really think that once snapping at Tuldur, and once writing 'cut the crap, guys' in guild chat are such heinous offences that I should be being sent warning letters, or that I should be being threatened with being kicked out the guild for objecting?

A little perspective anyone?

 

[Ashya]

A little perspective anyone?

I think all perspective was lost when this.. "thing" was dragged onto the forum.

 

[AcidK]

In my opinion, this could have been kept well under wraps and calmly sorted out if it was kept between Bradstreet and others involved (ie, whomever said the words she didn't like). The point, I beleive, that set Lith off was the fact that it was dragged out into the open where it should not have been and where, I beleive, it is slightly inappropriate.

To what I have read in the "missive" from Lith, he was trying to diffuse the situation (albiet in a abrassive manner) and kept it to private messages so as not to drag it into guild chat. Dragging it into the open seems disrespectful in this way and only serves to make matters worse.

 

[Windzarko]

The letter I sent was not (in my honest opinion) abrasive, and I'm not going to tread on eggshells for the sake of anyone who does find it abrasive.

I think the point that many people are missing here is that this is not about the reason for the arguements/outbursts, it's the way that they happened.

Disrupting a raid, public ranting against established authority figures in the guild, and then dragging a request to keep such outbursts in whispers onto the forums and trying to make it look like an assault of some sort. These are the problems.

As I said before, nobody has the right to deny you your opinions. They may not agree with them or argue with them, but they cannot deny them. But I would hope that when anyone has a serious problem with anything someone is saying or doing in the game, that they could express their concerns in whispers to avoid such situations.

The judgement from my previous reply still stands.

 

[shazam]

simple if you dont like leaders /leave, if you want a guild with just you in it then dont listen to people? if you want to play a game then try to enjoy it, if people upset you try to be grown up talk to that peson in private dont trawl stuff on to forums unless you can see no other way to resole it , if you cant or dont like pepole that lead a guild you have to leave it as they run it, I have left guilds before becuase i dont like the way they have been run, also i have stayed in guilds that i have not liked as the leaders have pissed me off. in the end its your choice to stay or go make your own choice dont drag your gripes on to forums to much please as it unsettles people,

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey,

Guys, this is starting to feel like a double gang-up, onto Bradstreet and Lithy. As such, I would like everyone who is not Bradstreet and/or an officer to stop posting to this topic.

Note that this is only a request, not a directive. Still, I hope you all understand where I'm coming from.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Haven]

in the end its your choice to stay or go make your own choice dont drag your gripes on to forums to much please as it unsettles people

Or you could try and make a difference and change an aspect of the situation that you do not agree with by raising it publicaly

The forums are here for debate and discussion, as long as it is conducted respectfully and with consideration of the arguments then its all good.

Whatever rules are enforced in guild chat the forums are open for courteous discourse.

 

[Huung]

The difference being these forums are public, guild chat is not.

What posting here means is that any prospective members of the guild can also see what should be confined to guild member's eyes only. Bringing it here is an undermining of authority and it should be kept between the parties involved.
If that had been the case and a solution hadnt been found, then posting here could have been the next step. Posting here for all to see was NOT the best first step though.

 

[Haven]

Posting here for all to see was NOT the best first step though.

In your opinion.

From what I've read it was not the first step, nor the second. Possibly the fourth.

 

[T-Bone]

Whatever rules are enforced in guild chat the forums are open for courteous discourse.

For members of the guild, non? Honestly I have to say that everytime someone not in the WoW guild posts in here they have no idea what is going on and just end up butting their heads in and making the situation worse.

I'm afraid it's looking like it's time for us to get some new forums so we can get away from the mindless, biased input of those not in the guild.

Cheers,

-- Tuldur