Addition to Raid Loot rules (updated 11 January)

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
This is an effective-immediate change to our looting rules for guild raids, so all raiders please pay attention! This also applies to people intending to raid with us from out-of-guild (I know there are some of you how occaisonally browse these forums).

New rules

1) ALL of the following are guidelines; the raid leader and other officers can and WILL make decisions that override the basic structure based on people and circumstances.

2) If you win a roll on an item, you can't roll on another item of that slot again during that raid; for example, if you win a shoulder item (or shoulder token), then you can't roll on another.

3) If you win the roll on any item, then any further items you roll on, you'll have a -10 penalty applied to your roll; for example, if you roll 73, it'll count as 63. This way, you still have a chance at the loot, but it also gives others present a greater chance against you. This will stack, so if you win two rolls, the third one you roll on will suffer a -20, and a roll after winning two pieces will be at -30.

4) Nobody will be allowed to win more than three pieces of gear per raid. If you have already won two and wish to roll on a third, the raid leader/master looter/other officers present may look into who else is rolling to decide if it would be "appropriate" for you to roll. If it's clear that someone else would gain a greater upgrade from the item than you when you've already won two, you'll be asked not to roll.

Exceptions

This bit is important as well, so don't skip it!

If only one person wants to roll on-spec on an item, then they do not incur an additional -10 penalty to their next rolls; loot shouldn't go to offspec/disenchanting just because the one person that would've taken the item feels they need to "save up" for later in the run. It will, however, still count towards your 3-item-limit.

If nobody else would be rolling on-spec on an item, then people who would normally not be allowed to roll by the rules above may do so anyway. Loot will always go on-spec, even to people who've won a lot of drops, before it goes to off-spec rolls or to be disenchanted.

When in doubt, decisions will be made by the raid-leader and loot-master (likely with discussion between officers). Sometimes gear you win because nobody else rolled will count towards the limits of how much you can win stated in the rules above, sometimes it won't. Also, the rules may be bent at times when officers deem it appropriate (usually based on common sense or fairness), but unless otherwise stated, the rules above will always apply.



These rules will apply from today onwards, including tonight's continuation of Naxx(25). The changes will be stated at the start of the raid to make sure everybody is aware.

Hopefully this should even out the distribution of loot a little more and help gear up more people as we go!
 

Lilaque

In Cryo Sleep
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

Since we are on the subject, I have a question. It concerns rolling on offtype gear for your char. Like cloth for druids and leather for mailwearers.

Yesterday was a great night for the druids ( and I really am very for them and this is nothing personal), but half of what they one was cloth gear.
The whole reasoning behind druids rolling on cloth ( I'm just gonna roll with this example, but ofcourse it applies to more classes) was that there wasn't enough leathergear around to get their stats up. As was clear last night, there is more then enough gear for them at this level of raiding.

Cloth is worn by 3 different classes and 9 specs. We already have to compete amongst ourselves. Adding 2 more specs to that makes for a very big pool of people trying to get cloth. For clothwearers, having other classes roll on their geartype shrinks the amount of gear available to them even more. What are your views on this matter?

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind the current distribution. So what do you think?
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

Preference will be given to people who are rolling on their correct armour type. People can roll below their armour class, but won't be considered unless nobody of the correct armour class is rolling.
 

magosreborn

New Member
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

I can see Lil's point about ppl rolling for gear below their highest available ones but I’m sorry, I have actual bought cloth gear with my badges as the leather one sucks for healing. I know that I can wear Leather but why wear it when its worse for what I intend to do, I know you have many ppl rolling of ur gear and it sucks.

With the combination of Healing and damage shouldn't it be more restricted to rolling on an item for the other bonuses, like an item with Hit should not be considered for healers unless no one else wants, an item with crit should not be considered for druids unless no one else wants (we get the least out of it), An item that is Spirit heavy is more focused towards healing and If its just has plain Mp5 and/or Haste then every caster can make use of it.

Even if I am wearing cloth atm and a leather item drops, in most cases it has less stats of what I want and the only large difference is the armor and as a healer that shouldn't be a reason to roll. Yes if no one rolls on it because all the leather wearing casters are in cloth it will potentially go to waste, but if its going to be worn for the fact that they can wear it and its not actually better will that actually help? In truth I agree with it as its a pain in the arse for clothies as they get it the worse but being one of the leather wearing casters :p I felt obligated to say something (sorry).

I agree with the diminishing returns on rolls for winners, means it’s got more chance of being spread out to others, not being able to roll on the same slot item in one raid I would of thought was common sense but best to put it in writing and the other points makes sense. This system does sound great but really needs the loot master to be noting the names down and for the raid to stay quite while loot is being distributed for it to work smoothly.

The only problem I see is that now actual numbers are being added/deducted to the rolls, common sense and preference from the loot master will be questioned if the altered rolls still win the roll and they end up still going to some one with worse gear as its a better upgrade as a proper system is now being put into place rather than the old one of who it was best for and common sense. So now that numbers are involve wouldn't more variables be needed (this may get confusing but I’m a physicist :p) Like a -5 to a roll for every band an item is below what u can wear (-5 for a leather wearer rolling on cloth, -15 for a plate wearer rolling on cloth) +5 if ur in a blue or +10 if a green, meaning those with worse gear get more chance. Yes this has become a maths lesson :p and I know simpler is better, but mixing a system with part common sense can lead to problems later, unless u just use the Loot master is god rule so shut up which in its self can cause problems. If a system can be put into place that everyone agrees on then any one with a problem can just be told "it’s the system" and shut up.

Sorry for going on but I saw the chance to think about a numerical system and couldn't help my self.
 

Zhinrak

In Cryo Sleep
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

Definately sounds alright to me for the first part and something needs to be worked out. I have mentioned many times, and as im sure many of the officers are more than aware of that it is near impossible to put in a loot system that works for everyone, so some fine tuning is always needed.

Personally i think id like something a little more complex like what youve suggested, unfortunately in a raid situation with the ammount of people rolling its going to get rediculous trying to figure it all out. Tier tokens, back pieces and some weapons will sometimes have about half the raid rolling for it, so some poor bastard will have to sit there and work out everyones real rolls based on gear, class, spec etc etc.

Any suggestions are perfectly welcome, and infact id encourage it, the more input the get the more balanced the system potentially can be.

How ever if it gets to the point where the rolls depend on the cycles of the moon and days of the week something has gone entirely wrong :p

Edit:
In relation to healers though something should be done though. i do recall on my paladin being stuck with several items of cloth for a long long time before i could get badge loot to replace them, and i know if i was raiding on her it would be mildly irritatting to know i couldnt roll on something potentially a massive improvement due to its armour class
 

Zaggu

In Cryo Sleep
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

I agree with the system, generally speaking. I would, however, suggest prioritizing tier 7 / 7,5 using set bonus as criteria. Most classes I play have a rather useful T7 bonus, that will impact the raid positively. That is why it might be an option to give prio to those lacking a piece for the 2-piece bonus rolling for it, at least in this initial state of our progression.
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

I know from my time with you guys that DKP was frowned upon, and tbh, I agree with that - but Luck Points was something the officers were considering along time ago for all these reasons.
I dont know what the stance on LP is now, Ive not even played Wrath so I wont claim to understand the raiding system in it.

For those who dont know, Luck Points are accumulated through attending raids, and cant be "taken" from you. You get x amount of LP at the end of a raid for attending, and additional x LP for each boss that was downed in the raid. There's also the possibility of bonus amounts when landmark bosses are downed, should the raid leader wish.
When you roll on an item, everyone's LP is added to their roll, and the highest wins. Winning the roll uses up ALL your LP (unlike DKP where you can choose amounts to add, adding complication) but losing the roll means you retain your LP for other rolls. This would help with the problem of people winning multiple things in a raid, as it would automatically penalise people with no LP over those with it. It also stops people rolling on just about everything, as they're more likely to save for items that they really want to win on (DST was the big one in TBC ;)).

Now all this may be totally useless information, but its just something to consider as its quite a nice way of altering rolls, but with a reasonably laid back system that won't turn you all into a bunch of bloodthirsty bleeding-edge-raiding types :p

I also know the pain with having to get gear at lower armour classes - Huung looked a right state in his "best shoulder piece" - which mirrored the 'lock T6 shoulders...
 

Angelic

Active Member
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

Right, my 2c.

I understand casters/healers rolling below their armor class, but much like Lilaque said, it pains me greatly as there already is HUGE competition for the gear I desire, even more so with the merge of +healing and +spelldamage, incorporating +spirit to most classes and Holy priests benefiting from +crit the way they do. As such I would like to back up Ari on the "only if no clothie wants it mainspec" attitude.

As for DKP/LP, knowing the guild I dare say with utmost certainty that they will not get implemented. That being said, I would like some sort of rolling promotions/restrictions and I can only hope, that the current "roll penalty" will work out well - though it's still based on luck rather than discipline, performance, need and relative improvement, which I dislike quite a lot. We are yet to see.

Angelic
 

magosreborn

New Member
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

Having done the 10 man naxx last night, the rules above were implemented and used were possible, it does seem to work and I do agree with the don't roll on an item below what u can normaly wear unless no one else wants it as I was the only leather wearer there last night it would of been unfair for me to roll and win cloth items and then later have leather drop. So even though it is hard watching shiny object pass me by it would be selfish of me to deniy others the gear when there are options I can take that they do not have. Also 3 nights of raiding has drained me but after the 1% wipe on the zombie dog last night at 2am realy want to go kick his arse tonight :p.
 

Lilaque

In Cryo Sleep
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

I just checked out wowhead to see what kind of gear i available for priests and druids alike. Using the druids weightscale (resto, rare gems) I compared the top 3 cloth items to the top 3 leather items for most slots. I found that in most cases the two geartypes have the same stats. Cloth doesn't trump leather gear, and in most cases the secondary stats on leather seemed to be better for resto's.

I'll add the comparison of the top 3 cloth and leather items I found for Chest in Naxx. Click

So why do people keep saying cloth has better stats? That might have been the case before Wrath, but looking at the current gear, I can't see the truth in that statement anymore.
 

magosreborn

New Member
Re: Addition to Raid Loot rules

Personaly I believe its the mind set of back in the day, items with more Armor on it usualy lost stats to compenstate and cloth was usualy always better for healing (known many palas that wore armor from all the bands), this has changed and I have been looking over the gear since this topic was raised and u are right, this is why I am happy to step aside.
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
A few small changes, for those that haven't seen/heard:

-Out-of-guilders raiding with us have equal loot-rights
-Being the only person rolling on an item no longer incurs a -10 penalty
-Raid Leaders/Master Looters/Officers may inspect people's gear to see if someone may roll on a lower armour class than they normally would; most of the time it is best to let the rogues roll on their leather, but if it'd be far more of an upgrade for a shammie/hunter/whatever who's present, then it's only fair to let them roll as well.
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
A few small changes, for those that haven't seen/heard:

-Out-of-guilders raiding with us have equal loot-rights
-Being the only person rolling on an item no longer incurs a -10 penalty
-Raid Leaders/Master Looters/Officers may inspect people's gear to see if someone may roll on a lower armour class than they normally would; most of the time it is best to let the rogues roll on their leather, but if it'd be far more of an upgrade for a shammie/hunter/whatever who's present, then it's only fair to let them roll as well.

Just my 2cents from my experience raiding in the old days.

I really don't think it's a good idea to allow someone to roll on a lower armour class, if that item is an upgrade for players of whom it is the maximum armour class (even if it's a small upgrade).

Reason is simple - Mr. Shammy gets a mind bogglingly huge upgrade from Leather-Spandex-Pants-of-the-Sultan and Mr. Rogue gets what, 20 more AP. With your idea, Mr. Shammy could win them - fair enough. But what if Super-Shiny-Sparkly-Pants-of-the-Buddah drop later, i.e. mail, which only he can take? Furthermore he's the only player needs them?

Well if I were Mr. Rogue I'd be quite upset at this point (and if I were Mr. Shammy I'd be feeling quite sheepish), and it does seem detrimental to raid progress as a whole as you now have a wasted item which would have been permanently used by that rogue, small upgrade or not.. it all adds up!

20AP x 10 DPS = 200DPS = difference between win or loss on those nail-bitingly close encounters where you get a boss to 2% and start to wipe.
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
In the event of such a thing cropping up, it's possible to get the GMs to swap things around; it's happened before.
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
In the event of such a thing cropping up, it's possible to get the GMs to swap things around; it's happened before.

Really? They do stuff like that? Do you have to offer then sex or something (and who's body do you sell to them if so)?
 

Angelic

Active Member
I was somewhat disappointed with how things worked out yesterday, so I would like to inquire what do you guys think. I don't like being a drama queen and I know that sometimes it's just "tough luck" situation, yet... What got to me was the fact that throughout the evening I passed on (iirc) two cloth items that were an upgrade for me, but had +hit on them and as such I thought it'd be better if the dps casters were not threatened by my rolls. When Loatheb dropped Cowl of Innocent Delight only me and Spengler rolled on it. This item, as you may see, lacks any +hit rating, hence suggesting it's for capped dpses and healers. He already won two items that evening, is not hit capped, I previously passed on two +hit items giving the upper hand to dpses and I have not gotten anything during that raid. Yet, due to my shitty roll I couldn't influence in any way, even with the -20 penalty he still outrolled me, receiving the item. As I've said I know things like those happen and according to current looting rules he had every legal right to do so, yet I would like to suggest to the officers that when several people who have received different number of drops during the raid lockout roll on an item, the one with lower amount of drops received is given absolute priority, not just -10 roll as that basically means NOTHING. As I can't meddle in moral obligations within people this is all I can suggest. What do you think?
 

Rai

In Cryo Sleep
All i want to say is that my rolls are as high as my IQ, that's about 35 constantly, apart from that. If i lose a roll, and the item goes to a person within the guild, I wont complain, but if a random paladin ninja's my leather i think that's quite lame, I don't mind passing items to Sasser or Adriss, or whoever is roguey stabstab. I mean if they need it, let em take it... right?
 

Zooggy

Junior Administrator
Staff member
Ahey, :)

Ange, your attitude on passing on items for DPSers is to be commended, on several different levels. You're also entirely within your right to be upset at how things turn out on any one particular night.

However, the raid loot rules as they stand now have a very solid and well-thought-out rationale behind them.

Basically, the loot system needs to respect the following four criteria:

1) It needs to achieve a certain level of equitability; "justice" and "fairness" are somewhat empty words as they mean too many different things to too many different people. To me, equitability means the rules are the same for everyone and everyone understands at the start what they are and why. This means the rules, whatever they may be, need to be clear, exception-free, easily implementable and as not human-error-prone as possible.

2) It needs to keep clear of positive feedback phenomena that unduly favor people who happen to attend more raids than others. People are already having to miss raids due to numbers or group composition limitations. It would not do to have them get stung by the loot system when they do get to go.

3) It needs to not hinder guild progression. While progression is not a core principle for the guild, it is nonetheless a important consideration. This means that we can't afford to have people "game" the system by passing on loot that would be good for them in the hopes of later obtaining loot that would be great for them. If the loot is good, it needs to be taken, period.

4) It needs to not put unde strain on the raid leadership. Basically, this means that people can't be worried about when or whether the raid is going to be called when they are thinking about whether they want to roll on a piece or not. Especially, they can't be questioning the raid leader and whining about a passed roll when it comes time to call it a night.​

As you can see, under the right circumstances, some of these criteria can be outright contradictory. Personally, I feel that we have struck a very solid and positive balance between them, and I urge everyone to think long-term, beyond the results of any one particular raid.

I'm really hoping that, after some thoughtful pondering, everyone can get on board these raid loot rules.

Obviously, I or any of the officers are permanently available to hear suggestions or discuss the consequences of any and all rules or policies, so please don't think I'm asking you to shut up or anything. :)

Cheers,
J.
 
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