Bai guys :'(

[Nero3]

This is my formal goodbye

I had never ever thought it would come to this I loved every single member of the haven since I joined all those weeks ago. I thank you all for helping me and my gf Iilyas settle in so well, and we would never ever thought we would leave. We enjoy playing with nearly every single one of you guys, you are great fun. Dont think I ever laughed as hard as I did at Leiz in ZA with his piss-poo, but that's a different story

But as it goes there's always someone out there that when ur happy will ruin it for you. Going as far as being late for his own raid, then having a little fanny fit and telling me to lead the raid because I wanted a viable excuse not to listen to my suggestion. But I guess that shows how much he respects his raiders.

So as of now I am guild hunting along with Iilyas, and anyone who wants to (prob not many now) I'm still there just not guilded add me to friends etc. Loved my time in Haven pity it had to turn sour goodbye guys thanks for a good time.

The Haven- prob the best community/raiding guild I've been in. But because I stood up for someone I'm no longer a part. Goodbye.

 

[Haven]

Hi Nero,

TheHavenNet is about more than just WoW so you are more than welcome to hang around and be a part of it regardless. Hopefully see you around in game anyway.

Wherever you end up make sure you
/join THN
and say hello!

best regards

haven

 

[Bradstreet]

Don't go! Or, perhaps more to the point, come back!

You and Iilyas have been great members of the guild, and have made yourselves central to the social as well as the raiding aspect of things astonishingly quickly. I don't know what happened last night, but this is not the first instance in which dissatisfaction with an officer or a particular response has prompted really good players to leave. Surely, in these circumstances, the officers are accountable to all guild members, and the problem should be resolved by sorting out the situation internally rather than by having great players -- and, more to the point, great people -- going away.

 

[Zhinrak]

It is a shame to see ya go nero, especially as i only just got back into the game briefly and unfortunate to see those events unfold. However personally i feel your over reacting a little.

My interpretation of it was that Skorn (or one of your close friends, im very bad with names sorry) hadn't yet got into the raid and had signed up very early compared to the others.

What was trying to be explained to you was that the sign up order, though it does make some difference is never the actual order in which people i selected for raids, people who can tank, heal and have high raid utility are always selected first and unfortunately it doesnt always work out for everyone, and unfortunately it has always been the way, even myself many times in the past prior to having my healer was left out of numerous important haven raids for these same reasons so its not like this is the first time it happened and wont be the last.

However i noticed that T-Bones comment is probably what irritated you the most, but despite being a bit harsh i will say i dont blame T-Bone for getting annoyed because as i said this isnt the first time it happened. With EVERY raiding guild i know of, and i speak to many raid leaders from other servers both US and EU have the same problems we do, where some people cant get into the raids who really want to and feel that they should be in because of various reasons such as signing up early. As a result alot of people complain, and i can garantee that with most raids being set up, those who left out will complain to T-bone or who ever is leading about it, and generally its because msot these people havent lead a raid and dont know how stressful it is to organise. Bottom line is not everyone can be pleased when it comes to raiding, 25 slots, but 30+ invites always leads to the same thing.

Im not trying to say T-Bone was right for saying what he said, what im trying to say that its perfectly understandable why he did, and that perhaps if you understood a little more it would have sounded as offensive, leading raids is difficult and time consuing and above all very very stressful, if you make space for one person another will be left out.

We know that you and a few others are RL friends who play together, and unfortunately to fit all of you into a raid often means the raid has to be build and designed around accomidating that which is difficult.

Bottom line is, T-Bones comment to me seemed one out of stress and frustration and not a comment directly intended to be disrespectful towards you or anyone. Again its a shame to see you go, your a cool person and a good player, hope you do well and i for one wouldnt mind seeing ya come back should you decide to.

 

[Bradstreet]

I'm sure raid leading is stressful, especially with all the TS chat added to the mix, and I imagine if I ever tried it the whole group and all their friends would wipe in minus five seconds and counting! However, this is not the first time that people have been so upset by rash and angry comments made by raid leaders and officers that they have left either the group or the guild. Surely a sense of community, an enjoyment of each other's company, and a shared respect for each other's skills are the main reasons we are all in a guild, and I think if particular officers struggle to maintain and promote those values, even under duress, it needs to be addressed.

 

[Zhinrak]

Well if it is a problem i can assure you it will be made noted in the officer forums and hopefully dealt with.

The unfortunate fact about raiding is though, all the best progressed guilds have achieved it mainly through zero tolerance, and maintaining a community aspect in a progressing raiding guild is one of the single hardest things to do in WoW, trust me. Even i have had serveral times of turning into a rather miserable angry little goblin flinging crap at undeserving people because of stresses caused by some of these issues, and i generally consider myself one of the more level headed officers in the guild.

You should know that things arent always like this by now, and i think this has mainly come across because this is the last BT attempt we can get before WoTLK and its alot of pressure, the raid leaders want to be able to say we cleared BT before Lich king arrived and for that the raid layout had to be very very selective.

 

[thatbloke]

I agree with what Zhinrak said really.

You and Iilyas are massively overreacting.

There were things said that were perhaps over the top but last night, as with all progression nights, the raid formation is made up out of those people who have signed up as Yes first.

For progression raids (which last night was), sign up order has nothing to do with it. It is unfair to pick people just because they signed up when if another person who also signed up and is available can come and will give the raid a better chance of succeeding. We have to think of 25 people here, not just one or a small group of those.

What I find slightly ironic is that the fact that you and Iilyas left actually meant that the person you were moaning about was able to come...

Take a look at the signups.

32 people signed as yes, that means at least 7 of those have to miss out. More of those if we have to pull in people (such as healers/tanks) from outside the guild.

People are chosen based on their utility, previous reliability and competence. The simple fact was that, as T-Bone said, Skorn was much more of an unknown quantity to us than yourself and Iilyas. That isn't an attack on any of you, just a hard fact that not many of us knew him well yet and we felt that taking people who we already knew to be reliable would be a safer option. I also refer you to point number one of some of our core raiding principles. this explains our sign up procedure here.

It's sad to see you go, but I think you both are MASSIVELY overreacting.

That and there is now a lack of people to make potato jokes about...

 

[Bradstreet]

I'm very glad you will be taking it to the officer's forum -- thank you for doing that. I do wonder if this is an opportunity as well to think a little bit about the quality of communication between the officers and the guild. Exactly this issue has arisen on more than one occasion before now, but most guild members have no idea if and how it has been addressed. Perhaps we could think of some way to make things more transparent and democratic -- after all, we won't be much of a guild if people keep leaving.

And so as not to get too far off topic: Nooooooooo. Iilyas and Nero come back! I will miss my warlock buddy and her adorable pet paladin.

 

[Huung]

Just to pick up on what Zhin said about the difficulties maintaining a community aspect whilst leading high level progression raids... Im in total agreement

Unless you leave The Haven and join a guild that classes themselves as "a raiding guild" (something The Haven has always avoided being branded as, and rightly so) you will never know just how much of a sense of community is lost during raids.
Sure, at other times /g is a laugh and people get along great, but its very much like a work situation - once the raid starts, its work faces on, get the job done; outside of that, the "boss" becomes a pleasant person again.

Speaking from personal experience here, I know my raiding with THN was different to any other raiding experience I had. With THN there was excitement and nerves about new content, but never fear about whether I'd get yelled at for messing up, at the end of the day the progression came second to the fun. With the other guild I raided with, the fun came from the progression itself. Totally different experience. I was honestly scared of doing something wrong, and the first time I died in one of Archi's fires and got yelled at for being a spaz, I realised just how different it was.

Back to the point though. For you guys to have made the progression you have, so quickly (fair enough partly due to nerfs lately) its bound to put pressure on the raid leaders, and the guild in general. Theres 25 people desperately trying to clear something before they never can again, whilst trying to enjoy it at the same time - everyone is very emotional and someone is bound to snap at some point. You cant take the snapping as a personal attack, no matter how much it feels like it might be.

At the end of the day all the raid leaders want to do is lead a rather large team of people to a victory they know they can achieve and know they deserve. Sure they may get ratty along the way, but anyone would.

I guess what Im saying is, dont let one incident get you down. The Haven is the best guild on the server for community, and now has the progression to boot - thats unique. Plus Wrath is just around the corner, and everyone can chill out a little from BT and MH as they level their way up to new content.

I've never played with you two, but from what Ive seen of my lurking here, you're respected members of a great community, and good raiders to boot. Take it on the chin and keep going - you know you want to!

 

[T-Bone]

OK, let me make a public statement/apology to everyone and let you all here my side of the story.

Organising a raid is very tough work, we either never have enough or we have too many. To be honest it is far worse when we have too many more people than we have less. Somehow dissapointing three people is worse than 20. Anyway, last night I was aware that Skorn had signed up. My first priority when forming a raid always has been and always will be getting enough tanks and healers and then any special people we need for special jobs such as a mage with high stam and a moonkin for Maulgar. At that point, NORMALLY, the raid is formed by the order trial raiders and progression signed up. HOWEVER, as was the case with Balck Temple I and was still the case last night I was not forming a raid based on sign ups I was forming it around a group I knew would clear as far as we could, which we did. Now, Nero, you did say at one point I said Skorn wasn't good enough because he couldn't DPS. I never said that! I said that the other people I knew had good damage output. I should also make clear, that one of the issues was that two of the people in the raid were members and one of the people left out was a raider. In this case the person who invited them, who in fact was Umb, did not promote him to the correct rank, they should be trial raiders. It was also never in question in mind that they were coming as they have both had much more experience in there than the rest of us put together and it is always good to have someone in that position.

Now, to my "You fucking lead it then" comment. Yes I said it, and yes it was purely out of frustartaion, it was not meant to offend it was meant to convey my frustration at how hard a time I was having. Let me break down my chat log for you at that point. 4 people whispering me asking what character to bring, 2 asking about their shadow res gear, one talking about RL stuff and 2 people getting frustrated at the exlusion of a member. I should also point out I was in an officers meeting on TS at the time. When trying to answer one, and the other people get frustrated due to not having an answer and they keep saying the same thing over and over it gets difficult. I should also point out that regardless of how you feel you were just saying I was making wrong decisions and impying that I shouldnt be in charge. That was the wrong way, the wrong time and the wrong place to criticise me about such a trivial thing, even Skorn agress it was trivial. The way you worded it was patronising and the only sort of reaction you were going to get was the one you got.

Now, it is a shame you felt that you had to leave the guild you loved and felt at home in over this, to be blunt it says as much about you as it does about me. I wish you didn't leave and should you ever feel that you have made a wrong decision you will find me holding the door open for you.

To finalise I am sorry for hurting your feelings, I am sorry I couldnt remain autonomous in my responces and I am sorry you missed a wonderful raid. I should also say that sometimes, I can be criticised for being harsh, but I would say this. Don't criticise me for the way I lead until you have dealt with a raid leader in a raiding guild. Even the most tame raid leader is far, far worse than me. I would also say that without sometimes imposing dicipline on people, we would probably still be trying to kill Gruul. As far as I am concerned my raid leading was a necessary part of our guild being where we are, and while I would be nothing without all you wonderful people, the raiding status of the guild would be nothing without me.

I hope you can all take time to think over some of the stress I go through and find it in your hearts to forgive my momentary lapses of character.

this is all,

-- T-Bone

 

[Ashya]

Damn, I knew I should have bought shares in that "Iceskate Export to Hell" business I was offered.

As to T-Bone's style of raid-leading; it is mild considering the pressure he is under at times. Does that excuse everything he does? Well, it kinda does. He always apologizes about it afterwards and agonizes about it in his sleep (well, maybe not the sleep thing...) and it is often very much needed at the time. The amount of things to be arranged, explained, sorted, started, stopped and whatnot are immense in a 10-man raid, let alone in a 25-man T6 affair.

As he stated in his own post; last night was hectic. Insane. And he dealt with it, as he always does. In his usual grace. *grin* No offense was meant, but a little frustration was aired. It happens. As he wrote; he apologizes. Doesn't promise it won't happen again, but I think that is realistic. With the demands placed by this game on a good raidleader, I thnk we have one of the best around.

So yes! COME BACK! GIEF MOAR SPUDANTIC ANTICS!

 

[Adriss]

If this is you both truely say good bye then i wish you both luck.

Thanks for all your help during the months.

Adriss

 

[Belegon]

T-Bone : Firm, firm but fair- like the Russian Police .

Sorry to see you guys go, your fun to raid and party with and from what i gathered, take the banter and bullshit all in stride, its a shame that something as trivial as this could cause a /gquit.

From a non-biased perspective i will say that T-bones comment was a tad snappy - by his own admission but hey, he is a fiery Scottsman after all!
It does seem you took it to heart and over-reacted a wee bit, there is no real blame here, i think frustration took this further than it needed to go.

 

[Skcornnelg]

Well... least people know who I am now

 

[Iilyas]

As regards the raiding rules Q man it clearly states

Anyone ranked at Trial Raider or higher NEEDS to read this since this will hopefully clear up the causes of several problems recently with raiding.

Number one: Sign-ups (not the larch, for once...)

...(for example: if someone hasn't gotten into a raid in a while, we'll give them preference...)

this is the point i was trying to make with Tuldur through /w..i felt it unfair on nnelg being left out and always over-looked when it came to raids.


However the main reason why I upped and left was I was unhappy with the response I recieved off tuldur...now dont get me wrong I never intended you to feel like I was implying that you couldnt raid lead or dissing your skills because I wasnt ok. I think you are the best raid leader I've had and you are normally real easy to work with. And what tipped me over was someone over TS had said something nasty about nero as soon as you snapped and he left the raid, I took that really to heart and didnt like it as im sure you can understand. I didnt want to leave but last night I felt like my thoughts didnt matter to the raid leader.

Anywho..I will miss you guys, the haven was the best guild I have been in and the laugh was great I loved logging on for the pure enjoyment of /g chat and listenin to you ppls moan and laugh bout tings..but I guess all great things must come to an end. I accept your apology tuldur however I cant feel at ease raiding with you with the possibility of you snapping again im here for fun and not to be treated like that.

Take care all x

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey, guys,

Whoa, time for more zen!

Stress seems to bring out the best and worst in people, for some reason. I guess that's what's so wonderful about being human.

In any case, when someone makes a (semi-)long-term decision in the heat of the moment, it always raises my eyebrow.

The way I see it, there are several options available to WoW players:

1) They don't raid at all.
2) They raid with a guild, in which case, no matter who the raid leader is, stress is going to crop up, and snapping is going to happen sooner or later.
3) They PUG raids, in which case, progression is simply not going to happen.
4) They become guild raid leaders themselves, in which case, no matter who they are or what their guild is, they will be the ones snapping. Sooner or later.

So, when the stress gets the better of us and harsh words are spoken, that's not the time to make rash, heated decisions. However, again, we're all human, so I'm not about to fault you for that.

(By the way, if it sounds like I'm taking T-Bone's "side" in this matter, that's because I am.)

Now that all of that has been said, I think you guys should come back, for several reasons:

1) You both love us and feel at home here.
2) You like playing with us and we like playing with you.
3) On the technical aspects, you are both very good players.
4) On the fun side, you can take a joke, and can dish one out as well.
5) On this specific issue, T-Bone has appologized, and you've accepted it.
6) Last but not least, Iilyas, you promised me an Ebon Shadowbag and I'll be damned if I'm going to accept one from a non-guildie!

Here's the thing: I think you should forget the raid part, for now. Just let Wrath come out, and then come join us for the leveling. Hell, I'm going to go out on a limb, here, and say, don't even bother posting up an application thing, just poke me and I'll get you back in.

And if you don't poke me, I'll poke the hell out of you, until you have no choice but to either join again or report me for spammabuse.

(Don't believe me? Ask Razz, he knows what I'm talking about. )

Then, we can all sit back and relax while we level to 80, and then we'll see what happens. I'm sure the raiding landscape is going to be very different when we reach it.

Here's hoping you'll come back.

Cheers,
J.

 

[shazam]

come on lets not be harsh guys and girls, i can also make a ^^^^^ Ebon Shadowbag ^^^^^, lol.

come on my little potatos come back, and i promise not to stop the irish jibes

 

[Nero3]

Well shazam I want an ebon shadowbag for this


IM BACK !!!

 

[thatbloke]

Well shazam I want an ebon shadowbag for this


IM BACK !!!

I can make em too

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey,

IM BACK !!!

Happy dance of joy.

Cheers,
J.