Blood Bowl League 3.4 Week 4

[thatbloke]

So despite keeping Dreamy's tree on the ground or rooted for the whole match and half the rest of his team off the pitch, I still managed to lose 2-0, in a result that I'm really not sure he deserved.

Penultimate turn of the game, looking like it could have gone 1-1, I had a 3 dice block on his wardancer where all i needed to do was floor it, despite the aid of a reroll this didn't happen, and the last ditch attempt by me to set up a TD on my last turn enabled Dreamy to instead dodge in, pick up the ball, pass it to a catcher he happened to have in my own half and score.......

Needless to say the result has somewhat disheartened me, as I don't think I did a huge amount wrong...

 

[Dreamy]

Just played against thatbloke. Elven agility trumped Khemri.. lack of agility.

Bloke played solidly - first half he was nearly turned over, but managed to keep it 0-0 despite some crazy balls to the wall reroll eating moves from the Dancers managing to sack the ball early and get it to a catcher, he turned masterfully to the defensive, and even when some desperate "pick up in TZ and run" moves succeeded, he still took down the potential scorer.

Second half looked good for him as well, with 7 against 11, but a pitch invasion took down three vital defenders for him (and some more, I think), meaning his backfield was without guards. He still managed to dodge and blitz the ballcarrying catcher, but failed to take him down, so 1-0.

Then there was a long, grueling drive with the tree rooting and elves leaving the pitch yet the few remaining managing to keep harassing the ballcarrier until the second to last round. Bloke, finding his Khemri are short on speed to reach the endzone in the remaining turn does a desperate pass to his other thro-ra, but it scatters loose in front, yet to a place where he only has to pick it up and walk it in.

Only another elf dodges through a TZ, then out in the open, to pick up the ball and successfully (without skill or RR) throw a (interception possible) 5+ pass to the catcher that has remained behind to make the 2-0 score in turn 16. Definitely not a worthy ending to a great game..

 

[Dreamy]

Needless to say the result has somewhat disheartened me, as I don't think I did a huge amount wrong...

Hmm..

Not really, no. You should probably have blitzed more with MB Tackle Man, especially on the catchers. (But then even with MB one can never trust the opponents to leave the pitch when they should)

Elves are a rough matchup for Khemri, since Khemri's ability is to put up four ST5 doorstops that opponents are supposed to have a hard time getting past - only elves can dodge away, and wood elves basically have the speed to run around them.

Personally I have too found Khemri to be fun, but they are hellishly annoying in that they have hard times to recover from problems. (Yet you managed pretty nicely. I did expect a draw there. And to fumble the pass.)

-

I've uploaded the game to THN 3.3, since I already had a game there that Huung uploaded. If there is a THN 3.4 in BBManager just let me know. At least there is a replay there if anyone wants to see the travesty.
(Although most of the game was very solid. I think part of what defeated Bloke was just the huge TV difference. And his completely sucktastic wizard)

 

[Lebe666]

Khemri are unforgiving ... its a different style of play required. Against woodies anything can be a disaster...

I'll check the game out... thatbloke would like an opinion ?

PS: Dreamy... should be nice to recommend the Scadeau fellow's thread to him ?

 

[Dreamy]

Dreamy... should be nice to recommend the Scadeau fellow's thread to him ?

D'oh, of course.
http://bbtactics.com/forums/funhouse-cast-crunch-cup-iii-team-blog-t590/

Bloke - this thread is written by someone playing Khemri masterfully. He did have the advantage of playing in a rookie league (instead of against highly experienced elves) but it is still a good read for Khemri management, and might polish off a few edges.

(Come to think of it, that 3D blitz with the TG at the end would probably still have been better off as a 2D from the prone Tackle-Ra, since if would have freed the Thro-Ra and allowed the Tackle-Ra to mark both the dodger and the dancer, after which you could have added a guard-TG or two to the mix)

Anyway, to everyone - when I was looking for the above thread I found this "Blood Bowl 101" thread, that I'd recommend to anyone wanting a fighting chance against the influx of BBtactics people (and old hands like Narly and Panda): http://bbtactics.com/forums/blood-bowl-101-sceadeaus-risk-management-strategy-scrims-t636/

 

[Panda with issues...]

Khemri are unforgiving ... its a different style of play required. Against woodies anything can be a disaster...

I'll check the game out... thatbloke would like an opinion ?

PS: Dreamy... should be nice to recommend the Scadeau fellow's thread to him ?

Speak of the devil! Was discussing Sceadeau over breakfast with Ronin.

Great player. Massive douche.

 

[Dreamy]

Great player. Massive douche.

Pretty much the impression I've gotten from old threads as well, even if I might use the expression "arrogant git" instead. Still, solid advice even if it was in pointy packaging.

Basically the evolution of a BB coach might be like this:

1. Run around willy nilly blitzing 2-D blocks, making dodges, GFI:s and picking "useful" skills

2. Position players with some care, moving around to make 2-D blocks with standing guys as well, marking opponents to force them to dodge instead. Doing few dodges or gfi:s. Picking workhorse skills, with few frills.

3. Releasing guys by chain pushes and blitzes instead of dodges. Not marking unless it is to prevent the ball from moving in the wrong direction. Sometimes not even blocking, even if it is with 2-D. Sometimes overlooking stat raises and doubles to get the player to where it "must" be rather than to what it "could" be.

4. Carefully counting squares even when opponents have to run around a scrum or dodge through several tacklezones to threaten the ballcarrier, just to make sure that kind of move is impossible. And some other stuff that I don't have any idea about, since I'm barely touching level 3 when I am at my best. (And backsliding does happen )

5. Feck knows if there is a level 5. I couldn't even finish a description for level 4. Probably the saying about "good coaches roll 6:s and Defender downs, great coaches make their opponents roll snake-eyes and double skulls" might be here.

 

[Lebe666]

Darn... still doing the transition from 2 to 3...

 

[Xylak]

1. Run around willy nilly ...

This is all I do.
Occasionally it pays off.

I've tried employing other tactics but damned if I know what I'm doing

 

[Panda with issues...]

3. Releasing guys by chain pushes and blitzes instead of dodges. Not marking unless it is to prevent the ball from moving in the wrong direction. Sometimes not even blocking, even if it is with 2-D. Sometimes overlooking stat raises and doubles to get the player to where it "must" be rather than to what it "could" be.

What's wrong with marking? I think knowing when and what to mark, and what position to place your marker to be particularly critical. Yes, screening has its uses and is the better choice in some situations, but overall, marking is equally critical. I appreciate elves and other agility teams may use screening more, but other teams, normally ones with higher armour, or teams like dwarfs get a lot out of marking.

If we're going by Sceadeau's strategy here, marking is always better than screening, because it always forces your opponent to throw a dice if he wants to do anything with that player, increasing the risk of turnover, injury for himself and loss of rerolls.

Sometimes you need to have a player get punched in the face (This is why IMO Zombies might be the best player in the game). You have to accept that injuries happen in blood bowl, and that any player is expendable to get you the win.

 

[Dreamy]

Put up your dwarves for marking and they can get bashed down, and a downed dwarf is slow and is still a potential (albeit unlikely) casualty. And marking up everyone with your zombies means that next turn you'll have to dodge someone loose to start that 2D block extravaganza at all..

Scad talked at length about marking, but more importantly I feel the point is that you should use some of your players to keep more of the opponents away from the action. One TG can reasonably keep 2 guys away, a treeman can lock up to three, even if unlikely since they'll feel the urge to dodge away...

I could have said something clearer along the line of "marking for a purpose", but in the end it remains - your goal is to get the ball across the opponents TD line, and failing that to prevent it from crossing yours. Marking is a valuable tactic, but screening is better since then they'll either make even riskier dodges or mark you so you're the one getting the blocks.

But like I said, I'm not there yet, but I'm learning that marking is yet another thing that all too easily turns into a mantrap. Unless you are playing some level 0 coach from Auld - those that don't even know about 2D blocks, how tacklezones affect dodges, or that certain skills are definitely less useful than others - like dirty player on a blitzer, strong arms on a lineman)

 

[Panda with issues...]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, though I think at times we're discussing exactly the same thing.

I feel our game a couple of weeks back was a interesting example of one where screening didn't work as well as you advertise, for both of us.

Your screening was fairly ineffective in the first half of that game, and ultimately allowed me to break free and score, because I drew some of your screen away from the action, limiting its effectiveness, despite your player advantage for much of the half. Additionally, your screening rather than marking late in the half allowed me to manoeuvre my players to where I needed them to spread your defence, as well as to open the hole that allowed me to score. The greatest threat to me (IMO) in the first half was the treeman who was locking up some of my critical strongest players through marking, and the rest of your players bogging me down near the sideline.

Equally, any attempts to screen in the second half were punished by my lack of players, meaning that you could easily blitz a hole and break through, maximising your choice of where to put on the pressure, where perhaps I really needed to be more proactive and make you roll more dice. I appreciate marking elves can be an exercise in frustration and futility, but we are talking about the most agile team in the game here.

Ignoring the frankly abysmal play I put into the second half after that lucky pitch invasion, it was a nicely balanced game, and I look forward to a rematch, where we can discuss marking vs screening ad nauseum! Game on!

I think you're naturally a little biased due to the fact that you're using wood elves, who suffer terribly from injuries, and obviously marking up opposing players is not ideal for them. I'd be interested to see you use a slower, less agile team and how much you screened vs marked with them.

 

[Dreamy]

My conclusions come from about 40-some games of necro and undead (with plenty of zombies) where I would swiftly take the lead in "most knockdowns" and also suffer occasional casualties for it.

Now, I did too believe that "zombies are great for this - AV 8, regen, and move enough to get up and walk back in again" - and that still holds true.

Oddly enough I'm not really meaning that screening can replace all of marking, I'm just saying that it takes more skill to be able to tell which method (mark, screen, cage, other) is the best at a given moment, than just using one to the exclusion of the others.

"Play to your strengths" (i.e. the teams strengths, as well as your own) is what I think you are saying too. I'm just not very clear about it, but if I had a good grasp of the theory I would be a better coach

Question remains - where and when should we rematch

 

[Lebe666]

If you want to protect the ball at all cost... marking can be dangerous depending on the situation.

A guard player can come in give that support for a 2 die and that marker is down... opening a gap. A good screen means the blitz must be wasted to open a gap... or try a riskier dodge.

If the ball is safe... then marking a less bashy team is good... but your giving up control of players.

 

[Dreamy]

Since we've been silent for several days, I might as well link to another good "general hints" page.

http://fumbbl.com/help:The+Taoch!+of+Blood+Bowl:+A+Condensed+Guide+for+Newbies

 

[Dr Drae]

Hey Orobi, sorry about the time I've taken getting back to you, IRL stuffs has been keeping me busy.

I'm free every night from about 9PM onwards though? :3 So if you're about either tonight or tomorrow night, they'd be best for me. If not, I can do Saturday day / night as well.

 

[Orobi]

Hey Orobi, sorry about the time I've taken getting back to you, IRL stuffs has been keeping me busy.

I'm free every night from about 9PM onwards though? :3 So if you're about either tonight or tomorrow night, they'd be best for me. If not, I can do Saturday day / night as well.

No worries and awesome prob wont have time to get on tonight but i'll make time for tomorrow at 9ish if thats ok with you

 

[Narly Bird]

I can jump in with my Halflings to replace Hoverdog if you want. I don’t have much availability so it could result in an admin’d win anyway though...

 

[Panda with issues...]

I can jump in with my Halflings to replace Hoverdog if you want. I don’t have much availability so it could result in an admin’d win anyway though...

Thanks for the offer, but with only one week left after this one, I feel it's not really worth it.

I think after this season, we'll take another, possibly longer hiatus, and then see what people want to do.

 

[Dreamy]

I dunno, personally I think a hiatus just leads to people who are getting up to speed forgetting everything about the game, and people wanting to play drifting off to other venues.

But I guess it is down to how much the THN people want to play. (And whether Panda wants to admin a league, although that can be fixed by someone else doing that job - even I can manage it )