Consoles vs. PCs, the Old Firm returns

[Tetsuo_Shima]

I saw bob busy slandering consoles in the BioShock thread and started posting a retort, it got so big and off topic that I've just started a new thread entirely. I'm sure some people will be none too pleased to see this old dog rear its ugly head once again (none more so than the admins, who hate moderating all the swearing and hissy fits that inevitably start) but I don't like seeing consoles abused.

Thats a no brainer kb and mouse win every time when it comes to shoot em ups. in fact most games except some racing games.

...

consoles are for fun, serious gaming is done on PCs

Oh, here's this old friend popping his head round the corner again - PC vs. console debate. Like somebody (probably) already said, it all depends what you want. FPS and strategy games are always the classic PC-oriented genres, but consoles offer a lot more than just 'some racing games'.

RPGs are far superior on a console, and not just the old turn-based style ones either. After playing Oblvion on both systems, I reckon the 360 incarnation really felt a lot more immersive (plus, it looks nothing short of spectacular on a 32" HDTV), and do you reckon Zelda would be better on the PC? I think not.
You could say MMORPGs are firmly PC material, but I just think that consoles haven't seen enough of them yet, especially since consoles are just beginning to enter the online age.

Platforming has always been one of consoles strongest suits, with the Mario games, Metroid games (ok, FPS now technically, but I hate the FPS series. Just give me 2-d side scrolling please), Crash Bandicoot, Metal Slug, Ratchet and Clank and now a host of Xbox Live Arcade games all fighting the good fight.

Beat-Em-Up games are also firmly console territory, with Tekken, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Virtua Fighter and all that jizz. Although not particularly enamoured to the genre myself, Beat-Em-Up games really do exhibit a lot of the best qualities of console gaming (pick up and play, beautiful, fast, skilled, tactical etc. etc.).

As well as those, there are obviously your racing games which have never been better than on consoles, puzzle-type games, football games, sport games in general I guess, those great console games that are hard to put into genres like Resident Evil and GTA, and of course all those amazing party games like the Wii and eyetoy etc. etc. And to be honest, FPS games aren't all that bad on console. Medal of Honor Underground was fantastic on PSOne, MoH Frontline as well for the PS2 (much better campaign mode than PC equivalents), Prey is one of my favourite 360 games, Call of Duty 3 was excellent and Perfect Dark and Goldeneye on the N64 are still to this day unrivalled.

On top of all that there are the other (oft repeated) benefits of console gaming.

1. Cheaper - at least the hardware is anyway
2. Pick up and play - none of your installation and rebooting bullshit. Just put the damn disc in and play!
3. Surprisingly versatile - I use my 360 for gaming, watching DVDs and playing music.
4. You don't need to upgrade - Most PC users for some fucked up reason reckon upgrading is a virtue. I can see how you enjoy shelling out 200 quid for a new graphics card just to render those trees in extra detail when the console does the same job from the off. By the time the graphics start becoming jaded the new gen of consoles will be coming out anyway - and for only a little more than the price of a good upgrade.
5. Everyone is equal - No distinct advantages online for the man with 125 fps. Everyone's running the same hardware so you can assume everyones sharing the same experience.
6. TVs better than monitors - Phat 32" HDTV for me anyday. Plus, I can play my PC through it anyway.
7. No blue screen of death - Very rarely do consoles crash. My NES is still working perfectly after over a decade of use (and the games are easily as good as any current gen ones). Fair dos my 360 broke after a year, but its being repo'd for free so can't complain.
8. Split-screen gaming - 4-player multi in the same room on the same console. Excellent.
9. Compact - No need to lug a hulking great case about, just cart it to your mates TV and its ready to go.

PCs are the only place for serious gaming? Are you actually joking?

Now I'm not going to say that PC gaming is without its virtues. Certainly FPS gaming is tops on PC (my love of Call of Duty will never wane), and strategy games, whilst are pretty decent on console as well, are firmly suited to the PC medium. You've got your usual benefits like net browsing (which the Wii also has, incidentally.) and more accessible online gaming as well and PC also offers the purdiest grafix if you are willing to shell the cash for it. Just don't write off consoles so readily.

 

[Nanor]

1. Granted, but I can shell out a £1000 on a top notch PC that will last me for about 7 years able to play games. How long does a console last before a new one comes out?
2. What's wrong with installing? And you can still play if you lose the disk.
3. You've got us there.. I wish my PC could do that :/.
4. A good upgrade will last you for a long time..
5. Not everyone has the same TV screen.
6. I like being able to see everything on one screen without looking halfway across the room to see my ammo and the other half to see my health.
7. That's because your console is doing little more than playing games. PC's are doing a hell of a lot more than playing games.
8. That's what we want, a quarter of our screen to be able to see.
9. It's not often I'd want to bring my PC to a friends.

So.. any good mods coming out for the X-Box?

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

1. 1000 for seven years? Technically, thats not a very good return. PS2 cost less than half of that when released - its now almost exactly seven years down the line and they're still making games for it.
2. It takes up time and it's boring. I'd rather be able to just pop in the game and play than have to cycle installs/uninstalls to play my older games.
3. The sarcasm stings. Main point is consoles arent as single-threaded as they used to be.
4. So will a new console, and for the same price. See Q.1
5. fair point, but the processing hardware is equal. Still better just one part being different than the whole system.
6. I prefer bigger, it's more involving, and I don't have to sit 2 inches from the screen to play (I can lie back in bed with my wireless controller). As a sidenote, the X360 can be played hi-def through a monitor anyway, I just choose not to.
7. It's doing ... what exactly? Running an OS? Surely the consoles lack of (tangible) OS is an advantage. Play music? 360 plays custom music even whilst you game. Download? 360 can download whilst playing most games. More often than not, my PC crashes whilst playing games alone. Over the course of seven years of playstation gaming I had about 2 crashes. Good track record.
8. I can still play full screen with people across the other side of the globe (or in the next room, through the advent of networking cable), but I can still play against four mates with one console. Try grouping 4 of your mates round the one keyboard.
9. Maybe not you, but KC, Tbone and myself have tried to get a bit of LAN going a couple of times. Just a couple of weeks ago one of our mates carted his compact Wii round to KCs and we had a blast.

No mods, no. Still get some kind of gameplay-enhancing content off of Xbox live though (not free, no, but at least its there), and I don't like mods myself anyway.

 

[Nanor]

1. True, but if you can afford it, buy it.
2. But if you lose your disk then you'll never be able to play it again unless you buy a new disk. It doesn't take up that much time..
3. Sorry if I came off rude, headache . They're still pretty single threaded compared to the PC.
4. Q.1
5. True, but if you can afford a new system. And besides, you can always lower your graphics.
6. I don't find sitting about a quarter of a metre away from my PC annoying, but it would be nice to lie back..
7. Well.. judging from my system tray.. X-Fire, Antivirus, Teamspeak, MSN, photoshop things and that's just the things I use. I can browse the internet, I can download music. Although the things may not relate to the game, but the PC is still doing it and doing a lot more than an X-Box.
8. But you'd need 4 TVs. You'd also need to pay for the ability to play across the globe. My point still stands about the 1/4 of a screen per person. . Of course it'd be hard to group around the keyboard, which is why I could buy 4 controllers and plug them into my USB port.
9. Well true, it would be easier to lug around, but if I wanted everyone to play my PC I'd invite them around to play at my house rather than bring it to a friends.

Fair enough, but mods can really enhance games and make them more fun. Look at the source engine and all the great mods that have come out of that.

 

[waterproofbob]

ok I'll add fun killy type games to things consoles can do well (mortal combat etc).
Also who the fuck wants to play zelda its wank.
all the games you mentioned as classic like mario and crash are awesome and yes I love old school console madness it rocks. and no I'm not joking consoles are not serious, serious gaming is done on PCs, I like a good bash about for a laugh on a console its fun. But if I want a good serious game then its aqll about the PC. I take your point on a lot of the issues, however as I only play FPS pretty much and have no interest what so ever in RPG type games PC is the oly real gaming platform for me.

You also talk about having to upgrade, all the ppl I know who are vaguelly serious about their console gaming have at least PS2/xbox a 360 and all the penis extensions that come with these consoles, the obscene price of games the price of having to pay for things like xbox live to actually be able to play online and all the other bits and pieces that come with console gaming. except for my graphics card dying since I bought my PC almost 2 yrs ago, I've spent very little and It really has no need to be upgraded. most console games have a much shorter life than a good PC game, then you have to go spend another £45+ on another one.
Also TV better than monitors, uhmmm that very much depends what tv/ monitor you have, in your case your TV wins, however my 22" monitor beats the hell out of my 14" TV.

Also the PC is not just a toy, great a console can do some of the things a PC can, then when you have to work you have to go back to the old faithful PC, I move no where and am ready to work ( not that i do that often). As far as getting together to play PC games, I've been to loads of LAN stuff and never felt bogged down by humping my case cos its tottally worth it. Who gives a shit about playing 4 man console game when you can play 30 man all in one room. that is the shit no questions.

Also the everyone is equal thing is a bit odd, as some of the best players I know have rubbish internet connections and worse PCs, but have learnt to use their lag to their advantage. Yeah I find it easier to play with a multiple dpi mouse and nice FPS, buts its a hell of a lot easier to bunny hop when you are quite literally leaping all over the shop.

I'm not slating consoles here I'm simply saying imo that for a bit of a laugh with some mates a console is great but for serious hard ass solid gaming a PC wins.

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Ya, as I thought. It's all become a bit tit-for-tat and we're all thinking that my good/your bad points are better/worse than your good/bad points. Nevertheless ...

zelda its wank.

So you claim.

and no I'm not joking consoles are not serious, serious gaming is done on PCs, I like a good bash about for a laugh on a console its fun. But if I want a good serious game then its aqll about the PC. I take your point on a lot of the issues, however as I only play FPS pretty much and have no interest what so ever in RPG type games PC is the oly real gaming platform for me.

That's ok then. This is more of a personal decision thing I guess, just that I, personally, have found console games far more enjoyable and lasting than PC games.

the obscene price of games the price of having to pay for things like xbox live to actually be able to play online and all the other bits and pieces that come with console gaming.

Filthy game prices do put me off a bit, but I reckon the 3 quid a month I spend on Xbox Live is well worth it. You don't even need to pay for Live if you just want to download stuff and that, you only gotta pay for multiplayer gaimng, but 3 quid isn't going to smash the bank.

except for my graphics card dying since I bought my PC almost 2 yrs ago, I've spent very little and It really has no need to be upgraded.

Ya, 2 years. But 2 years is starting to approach the decency limit for a mid-range PC, and you'd have spent over a grand top-speccing your system to give it that extra couple of years lifetime. Most consoles see at least five years of life and you don't need to top-spec the mofo to do it.

most console games have a much shorter life than a good PC game,

Again, opinion wise. Final Fantasy 9 I must have played over 500 hours of because I enjoyed it so much, the only PC games that come close are Generals and Call of Duty. Then again, on the flipside, you'd probably be feeling suicidal after 500 hours of FF9 but not so after BF2142 or CoH or whatever.

Also the PC is not just a toy, great a console can do some of the things a PC can, then when you have to work you have to go back to the old faithful PC

You could easily buy a PC adequate for work for less than 200 quid.

As far as getting together to play PC games, I've been to loads of LAN stuff and never felt bogged down by humping my case cos its tottally worth it. Who gives a shit about playing 4 man console game when you can play 30 man all in one room. that is the shit no questions.

Thats 30 people on seperate machines. It's easily possible to network 30 360s in the same room, but the main point is you can have a blast with your mates on one console and one screen. It's there if you want it, and with a 32" screen even a quarter of the thing is pretty generous. Of course, as you say, that depends on the size of the screen.

Also the everyone is equal thing is a bit odd, as some of the best players I know have rubbish internet connections and worse PCs, but have learnt to use their lag to their advantage. Yeah I find it easier to play with a multiple dpi mouse and nice FPS, buts its a hell of a lot easier to bunny hop when you are quite literally leaping all over the shop.

Precisely. At least it helps to keep the playing field level.

Well.. judging from my system tray.. X-Fire, Antivirus, Teamspeak, MSN, photoshop things and that's just the things I use. I can browse the internet, I can download music. Although the things may not relate to the game, but the PC is still doing it and doing a lot more than an X-Box

The X360 dashboard incorporates all the features of Xfire, Teamspeak and MSN and are always active even during gameplay. It has no real need for AntiVirus software to run (and if it does, it's pretty inconspicuous). The Wii has a free web browser incorporated into it's software and you can download music to a certain extent on Xbox live. The only things that are missing are utility programs like Photoshop etc., but like I said, you can run those on a sub-200 quid PC anyway.

 

[Gombol]

The Wii zelda game owns!!!!!!!!

found parts of it confusing...but its still really good<3

 

[Taffy]

PC's beat consoles, in my personal experience. Why? Well, as you asked:

1. I've had this PC for 5 years now, without having to splash ANY cash on it, and it stills runs all my games, even Medieval total war 2, which is a real hog for graphics.

2. Controls are easier. With the exception of racing games, which I don't really play anyway, keyboard + mouse, or joystick for flying games, are a hundred bazzilion <insert rest of huge number here> times better than any console control.

3. Internet play. Playing over the internet is one key advantage that PC's have over consoles. Yes, I know consoles are beginning to get into internet gaming, but do I really want to spend money on a console when I can buy the games I want on pc, update them, get expansion packs, and download some awesome mods?

4. Immersion. I find PC's much more immersive. Thats because I've got surround sound and a 17" monitor on my pc, as opposed to mono sound and a 13" TV on my PS2. No-brainer.

5. Wide scope. On a PC, I can check my e-mail, log in to MSN, post up on message boards, write an essay for school, find out whats going on in the world, download the latest mod for any of my games, talk with people over teamspeak and play whatever game I want, with whoever I want. I can get involved in leagues, clans and communities, or just play single player missions. And that, I think , is the key advantage that PC's have over consoles: variety. If it wasn't for PC's, I'd have to do my homework by hand, pick up the phone to talk, buy a newspaper from the shop and then play on my PS2 all on my own, or with my mates using the fun but primitive 'split-screen' multiplayer. Quite frankly, I'm better off sticking to my PC. Even if it is a useless heap of junk

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Just when it had all cooled down, Taffy comes in and reignites the debate

Like I said, it really truly does come down to personal taste, and maybe even which of the two systems you got into first having an impact on how you affiliate yourself (I had several consoles before my first PC, but I know that KC had a PC way before a console).

Personally speaking, I find a few of your PC arguments a bit ropey - particularly the ones about controls, lastability, immersion and ... well, pretty much all of them actually. At the same time, I guess you reckon my console arguments are ropey However, if I started listing counterpoints it'd just end up the same tit-for-tat argument all over again.
I think most of the problem stems from the fact that consoles really are starting to branch out into territories that the PC platform always held, like net play and HDDs and messaging and all that. So, if I say that consoles do this, you turn round and say but PCs do it better, but then I say consoles do it for cheaper, and then you say but PCs are worth the expenditure and so it goes on and on.

Here's the solution. I play consoles, you play PCs It's awkward, of course, because I still play PC games a whole lot of the time, and also the quirky factor that we never would have had this conversation if it wasn't for PCs However, I stand by my opinion that if I had to obliterate one system off the planet, PC would be going

 

[elDiablo]

A little update on the console front from me too then.

I'll be buying a 360, mostly to play Bioshock. This is because I am not very happy with the whole 5 installs part, which is made just to annoy legit players (as people who download the game will have this annoyance removed).

 

[Ronin Storm]

Diverting from the more serious topic, but more 360 players in THN has got to be good. Tetsuo was threatening to play some PGR3 against me (have you seen his score at that game!?!) but we never got that together (cause I'm a wuss ). Generally, though, there's one or two of us on any given evening and I'm sure we could get a game or two going on there. Lots of coop games and other cool stuff.

Twisting that aside back to the main topic...

I do find that consoles can be excellent for games for smaller numbers of players, say 4 to 8 or so. Sure, PCs can do that too but PC games are often designed for 8v8 or even 32v32 where console games tend to cater for smaller numbers and do that really well. Add to that the few of these games that support multiplayer coop action (Gears of War, anyone?), another substantial focus for the console, and I find you're on to a winner with the console.

Finally, consoles rock for alternative control methods; where are the Guitar Hero and Dance Dance Revolution games for the PC? Consoles have been built with alternative controllers in mind. Joysticks just don't cut it (I get two of them on my standard 360 controller...!) Dance mats, guitar controllers, hand guns... and more.

There's just more toy to the console. The PC does more but becomes, I feel, lessened by its breadth. The console does games, its sole raison d'etre, and thus it can excel at that. Personally, I find the quirks of web browsers and so on on a console to be just trivial extras and not worthy core features.

 

[BiG D]

Finally, consoles rock for alternative control methods; where are the Guitar Hero and Dance Dance Revolution games for the PC?

Here and here, respectively. (This also demonstrates the user-power a PC has... Anyone with an idea, a compiler, and some time can make something great for everyone else to enjoy.)

 

[Ronin Storm]

Here and here, respectively. (This also demonstrates the user-power a PC has... Anyone with an idea, a compiler, and some time can make something great for everyone else to enjoy.)

Yeah, I'd not forgotten Frets on Fire but I'm not aware of a controller for the PC for it... unless one can adapt the PS2 or Xbox guitar controllers? I was intending more a hardware slant to my argument.

That said, talking about developing for the console platform, how about XNA? That opens up some of the same possibilities as for the PC in a better defined package. After all, one 360 is much like another but few PCs are alike, really. That should, in theory, simplify the development-testing cycle so that once it works on your hardware it works on all hardware of that type. No pesky old drivers, hardware conflicts, etc, etc, etc.

 

[BiG D]

Yeah, I'd not forgotten Frets on Fire but I'm not aware of a controller for the PC for it... unless one can adapt the PS2 or Xbox guitar controllers? I was intending more a hardware slant to my argument.

That said, talking about developing for the console platform, how about XNA? That opens up some of the same possibilities as for the PC in a better defined package. After all, one 360 is much like another but few PCs are alike, really. That should, in theory, simplify the development-testing cycle so that once it works on your hardware it works on all hardware of that type. No pesky old drivers, hardware conflicts, etc, etc, etc.

Guitar Hero controllers (as well as DDR pads) work just fine on PCs via an adapter. But FoF is brilliant because they've devised a method of making you feel like you're playing the guitar without the need for another expensive controller

As for XNA, at this point you can't actually distribute your games, can you? I fear Microsoft will have things locked down pretty hard.

 

[Ronin Storm]

As for XNA, at this point you can't actually distribute your games, can you? I fear Microsoft will have things locked down pretty hard.

Ah, yes, true.

Q: How can I share my Xbox 360 game built with XNA Game Studio Express with other Xbox 360 users?
A: To share your Xbox 360 game with friends, four requirements must be met:

* The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
* The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
* The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
* The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.

We are actively working on other ways to allow you to more easily distribute your games and are very excited about the possibilities this will open up for independent game development.

 

[Gombol]

Imho, PC's Own Consoles all the way...you need the net..special cables..a monthly fee..(so two fees a month) to play on a console...on the PC..you need the net..and depending what game you play..maybe a monthly fee..

so to finalise this

PC > console.

 

[elDiablo]

...Joysticks just don't cut it (I get two of them on my standard 360 controller...!)...

You use your "joysticks" on your 360 controller to play a flight sim, and I will laugh at you, sorry I know, you set up the 360 controller to be used in BF2, and we'll go on an empty server and go about flying

As for XNA, it's the Creator's Club membership that's the hard part. Well, the expensive part, anyway... Having made a game with XNA Studio at Uni, that's what killed us... And it's going to be as you said, so that Microsoft can control who distributes what. Before any game can go on XBox, it has to get certified by Microsoft to insure that the game doesn'tmake the XBox vulnerable or look bad.

Meh.

 

[BiG D]

You use your "joysticks" on your 360 controller to play a flight sim, and I will laugh at you, sorry I know, you set up the 360 controller to be used in BF2, and we'll go on an empty server and go about flying

Many people play flight games on the PC using a keyboard, though. It's strange, but for some reason people just don't buy controllers for the PC, even with the tons of excellent options out there. I love my logitech wheel, racing games just wouldn't be the same without it, but it seems I'm in the minority. Any thoughts on why this is? Cost? Current options (keyboard) being "good enough?" Ignorance?

Another question for you console gamers: Ronin listed DDR and Guitar Hero as examples of games with alternate controllers. Guitar Hero is an exception, so let's ignore it for now. How many alternate (non-gamepad, and once again non guitar hero ) controllers do you guys own? How many games do you own that take advantage of these? My hunch is not many at all, but let's see.

(Guitar Hero is an exception here because it's hit some sort of super pop-culture critical mass. It certainly wasn't the first guitar based rhythm game, but can you name any others?)

 

[Ronin Storm]

It's strange, but for some reason people just don't buy controllers for the PC, even with the tons of excellent options out there. [...] Any thoughts on why this is?

Ignorance could be a part of it. I have a joystick (Saitek X52) and my trusty mouse (Logitech MX510) and keyboard (Microsoft Natural Multimedia) for my PC. And that's it. I do have a graphics tablet stuffed in a box somewhere but the pen is broken and £50 to replace so I've never got there.

For game controllers nothing in particular but largely, I feel, because I haven't had the need... the games I've been playing on the PC are built with keyboard and mouse in mind and sometimes with a joystick alternative... but nothing else.

So, I'll point firmly at the mainstream PC games and note that they're keyboard-and-mouse games. It's the console market that seems to have more of the interesting "alternative" games that benefit from or require a different controller.

How many alternate (non-gamepad, and once again non guitar hero ) controllers do you guys own? How many games do you own that take advantage of these?

For the PS2, I have the EyeToy and I've also had a dance mat. For each I had a single game.

For the 360, only the guitar controller (yeah, I know, that's Guitar Hero again). Again, just a single game for that but I'm planning on just about every sequel to GH and hopefully Rock Band has some compatibility with the Xplorer controller...

That said, I don't think it's fair to discount the gamepad itself. The dual analog controls and double trigger system on the 360 controller are a nifty piece of work and provide a lot of flexibility in a small package. Shooters are very different on consoles, I find, as you don't have the fine accuracy of mouse+keyboard but I come back to the very tactile feel that I just don't get with mouse+keyboard on the PC.

Gears of War is a good example here. You're ducking and rolling and hiding behind cover and blind firing and it's all very intuitive but most of all it's very tactile. Soft movements of the analog controls result in soft results: creeping, peeking, carefully aiming. Hard, violent motions have suitably violent repercussions: diving, leaping, blazing wildly. Now, sure, I can aim a mouse slow or fast but it's just about pointing -- it's all very clinical -- and the keyboard is entirely digital...

There's certainly something in the collaboration between the games designers and the hardware designers that's important here. PC games beget and require mouse+keyboard. Console games similarly aim for console controllers and vice versa. Maybe this is really a big discussion on the mechanisms for playing games and what one prefers in there?

 

[Taffy]

However, I stand by my opinion that if I had to obliterate one system off the planet, PC would be going

Along with (decent) internet access and your ability to contact most of the members of this forum That hurt me Tets. That cut real deep.