GAME in trouble?

Haven

Administrator
Staff member
There are still Games Workshop's around the UK. Never really been in one so I'm not sure what they offer beyond table-top gaming.

From what I've seen they've lost the love of gaming and purely worship at the money altar now. Replaced lead figures with cheap plastic ones for an increase in cost to the customer and also a serious lack of anything creative being released in a long time. Don't get me started on Games Workshop and how much they've sold out :P I see 3d printers being a serious threat to games workshop if they continue to drop in price.

But yes go back 10 years and they were a good example of what needs to be done.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
But yes go back 10 years and they were a good example of what needs to be done.

I think you may mean 20 years... back when they still produced games that weren't just overpriced WH:40K and WH:FB. The era of Necromunda, Epic, even WH:Fantasy Roleplay. That said, if they'd kept with the diversity they wouldn't even exist any more...
 

Panda with issues...

Well-Known Member
Games Workshop still produces fantastic models. The new plastics are far FAR superior to anything they put out even 10 years ago, metal or not. They often make the incredibly hubristic claim that they produce the world's best model soldiers.

A number of smaller outfits can quible with that in terms of pure sculpt quality, but no one is even coming close to what GW has been doing with plastic. Their closest pure competitors are arguably Privateer Press and Mantic (who basically just make models cheeper to sell to people to play GW IP games with). The mantic plastic kits lack detail, and sculpt quality varies dramatically. The PP sculpt quality is generally very high, but the plastic they have chosen to use is not very good, being very difficult to work with. In addition, the modularity of the GW kits blows anything else on the market away (that I've seen, anyway).

Basically, to counter Haven's point, there is NOTHING cheap about their plastics, either in cost, or quality.

3d printing is an interesting one. This company has been producing it's general run figures via 3D printing, and I can honestly say the results are incredible (owning pretty much every sculpt they've released).

Games Workshop is a goliath, with a huge fanbase. They've ploughed a lot of money into computerised sculpting and stuff like that, some of which has paid off, some of which hasn't. Whether they're worried about 3D printing, I don't know, I think that it will be very interesting to see how they handle their IP at that point. The idea of a CAD file with the sprues being leaked to the internet, and people being able to print their own SPAZ Marine armies at home is a very realistic one for the next 30 years or so. I suspect that this is a significant element in the reason they have been launching lawsuits left, right and centre towards places like chapterhouse studio, which make models which (in my mind) at least utterly violate copyright in a moral sense, even if the legal waters are far more muddied.

As for the GW brick and mortar store, well, I think in the UK, the population density is high enough that it still works. The store also doubles up as a childcare facility for parents when shopping. It ensures that the only 'toy soldiers' a kid is really ever exposed to are those of GW, and provides a key component for clueless relatives to buy gifts. In 20 years, we'll see where they are.

In places with lower population density (North America, Australia) and often much higher rents (Australia) the retail model seems to be a failure.
 

Ki!ler-Mk1

Active Member
tl;dr Gamesworkshop has great models, fiction and staff, but shit policies.



Yeah Gamesworkshops an interesting one, on the one hand, great models, great fiction, great staff - but the stores have many downsides, i cant peddle second hand gamesworkshop stuff, even if its new but not in shrink, i cant use non gw models and i cant mention independent stockists which charge 20% less - whos fault is that gw? That said, they probably sell a large percent of their turnover through companies like wayland games.

I had assumed that when the independent stockists dont have free delivery(like now) that their postage costs put people off small orders of GW stuff even with 20% off, now i am not sure what to think after seening 3 people spend £100 each at the local store :S That said, its nice to have the local store, so i keep on buying from wayland games and keeping my mouth shut.

Though kindly, i last year spent £180 on space marines, and traded it all in for vampires last month - i was buying for myself and a friend, however said friend is no longer a friend, after defaulting big time and being to lame/sad/immature to tell me the truth.
 

Traxata

Junior Administrator
It would be nice to see some small independent boutique style gaming shops open up. Much like the old role play shops you used to see (before we all started playing computer games and killled them off). Places that are part LAN centre and part shop can do well if they are well run with enthusiasm and a genuine enjoyment of the medium. I think there's plenty of room in the high street for the right creative approach to selling games and the experience/social along with it.

Basically if Amazon/Play can do what you do then your business model is fucked right now and its time to figure out a unique selling point.

The same comments apply to book stores - they are next on the hit list - if they don't start moving with the times they will be killed off as well. Time to get those authors signing in-store as well as other events and socials based around the love of books.
We have a business model for this exact thing :p

Basically comes from the industries we're in... taking a LAN cafe system with a unique LED styling (making it a franchise). We do the lighting, computers aren't a problem especially with Steam's support for LAN cafe's and our friends coffee business. Pretty much covered the bases :)

Only issue is start-up & location.
 

Dr Drae

In Cryo Sleep
Worked as a christmas temp there over Christmas and they were dying then. And that was over Christmas. It wasn't good; mostly the lack of big consoles last year. So EA have pulled support and a domino effect occurs. I hear Take-Two are murmuring about pulling support too.

I still get to hear this stuff from a now ex-colleague ( wasn't kept on because Head Office couldn't afford the new contracts. It's that bad)
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
On the one hand, as a PC gamer first and foremost, I dislike Game for their relegation of titles relevant to me to a tiny portion of the shop, and usually with no decent selection (except for on some White Label/Sold Out budget re-releases, they can still be good for those). Also, their involvement in bullying THQ and other companies into delaying the ability to buy Steamworks and other Steam-integrated games from the Steam store itself (moronic when the physical copy ALWAYS installs to Steam) was disgraceful.

On the other hand... aside from small indie places, Game/Gamestation are the only proper places to go for the gamer hobby, where peripherals are stocked with decent variety and in quantity, and where there's randomy gamer kitschy stuff. They've also largely been good for console gaming (even if prices on first-hand titles could often be better).

There's also the potential damage to the industry that will result from the major brick-and-mortar chain in this country going under. Most of the slack will likely be picked up by superstores and other shops that won't have the gamer atmosphere and won't be able to stock all the peripherals and broad range of titles and pre-owned stuff, etc etc. Can't imagine that being good for the industry, all-in-all...

Does worry me a fair bit, even though I've almost exclusively ordered online or purchased digital copies of most games for the last half decade or more.
 

Tempscire

Active Member
I don't think I've bought any games from Game (console or PC) for about 2 years now. They're simply not very competetive when it comes to new games and I flat refuse to buy pre-owned from them. Their business practises for the past decade or so have always put pre-owned at the forefront, including guidance for employees that they must ALWAYS push a pre-owned sale over new, so to be honest they're just reaping what they sow. The publisher and developer don't see any of the money from that pre-owned sale, so that's money taken directly out of the game-makers pocket. Game can't use business practices that are going to hurt the industry they rely on and then be surprised when the industry turns round and says they're not going to help get them out of the hole they've dug for themselves.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
aside from small indie places, Game/Gamestation are the only proper places to go for the gamer hobby [...] Most of the slack will likely be picked up by superstores and other shops that won't have the gamer atmosphere

You make an interesting point, there, but isn't our hobby really held together online? I'm not even talking THN specifically, here, but games in general. Do people really still go into a computer games specialist store to talk games with the staff?

It's a virtual hobby, with the exception of the hardware, so it's not like there's a whole lot to show and tell...

The publisher and developer don't see any of the money from that pre-owned sale, so that's money taken directly out of the game-makers pocket.

Okay, sure, that's sort of true but hasn't really affected us as PC gamers. We've been buying license keys for years so the physical product has not been resaleable for a long time.

If you will, it's console's requirement to have a physical DVD that's created this problem in the first place and it's the commercialisation of what we always used to do (lend our mates a game we bought, often in trade for something they'd bought) that's brought it to its logical conclusion.

I'm not saying, necessarily, that I think that the loss of the ability to pass round my game is a good thing but it is, from a cost-of-development point of view, entirely necessary.
 

Tempscire

Active Member
Okay, sure, that's sort of true but hasn't really affected us as PC gamers. We've been buying license keys for years so the physical product has not been resaleable for a long time.

If you will, it's console's requirement to have a physical DVD that's created this problem in the first place and it's the commercialisation of what we always used to do (lend our mates a game we bought, often in trade for something they'd bought) that's brought it to its logical conclusion.

I'm not saying, necessarily, that I think that the loss of the ability to pass round my game is a good thing but it is, from a cost-of-development point of view, entirely necessary.

I see what you're saying, but the realities of the industry mean that it is going to affect PC gamers since a lot of developers need to go multi-platform to turn a profit. And until the console makers embrace downloadable content the developers have no choice but to carry on with the physical copies approach.

Unfortunately we're in a position at the moment where PC development is very much on the back burner for most game development companies. We're relatively niche (when you take into account that everyone and their dog has a console), the PC is an awkward platform to optimise for as the hardware varies so much and we're evidently a pain to design UI's for (see Skyrim). So they turn to the consoles to make their money.

I've digressed slightly there, but I still feel it's a valid point. As to the pre-owned issue I have no problem with people selling on their games. As far as I'm concerned you bought it, so you can do what you like with it. What I object to is companies like Game basing a very significant portion of their business on a practice which is only going to hurt the people that provide them with a product to sell in the first place. This has a knock-on effect to the PC because if the developer is seeing less of a profit on console releases due to pre-owned sales they're able to make less games or games of a lesser quality. I view pre-owned sales on the same sort of level as I see piracy as the end result is the same: less revenue for the people that made the game. The only difference is that it's legitimised.
 

Ki!ler-Mk1

Active Member
I've not seen it, but i played oblivion and i can imagine how difficult it is to take a system designed for single inputs and add mouse functionality.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
I've not seen it, but i played oblivion and i can imagine how difficult it is to take a system designed for single inputs and add mouse functionality.

Yeah, I think this is a problem with porting. If they start at the lowest common denominator of the console and then try to make that same UI work for the PC, it always feels a bit shit on the PC.
 

Panda with issues...

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I think this is a problem with porting. If they start at the lowest common denominator of the console and then try to make that same UI work for the PC, it always feels a bit shit on the PC.

Yes. At the end of the day, they should have sorted it out. It's not like they don't have extensive experience creating inputs for PC UIs (Morrowind) I can't imagine they use (or would like to try to use) an Xbox 360 controller for coding their games.

Trying to use poor console ports is like trying to paint a Salvador Dali painting with a stick you found in the garden.

Inability to sort something better out for a mouse/keyboard is a joke for a title as big as skyrim.
 

thatbloke

Junior Administrator
A note with Skyrim - I usually have a 360 pad plugged into my PC as I use it for a couple of games (but skyrim is not one of them). If it's plugged in, the game picks that up and TOTALLY IGNORES MY MOUSE AND KEYBOARD. I have to unplug it to be able to actually use my mouse in the game...

Not cool.

Back to the topic, I really don't think GAME leaving the high street will be bad for the games industry in the UK. I think it will most definitely change the way games are distributed in the UK, but I think that this will cause more focus to fall on online distribution - something I am a big fan of, and additionally, people having to make a 5GB download after purchasing a game might cause people to start bitching more about the crap Internet connections available in a lot of areas, having an indirect effect on internet speeds.
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
I have delved into game programming as of late and can confirm it is sheer laziness, to the point where it's frankly unforgivable, to have a shoddy UI as presented in vanilla PC skyrim.

Ditto for any PC port released without key rebinding options (like transformers), or horribly buggy ones (BF3, Skyrim, Alice:Madness returns).

These are relatively simple things to code, and yes I mean even considering cross platform (my first test game had xbox & mouse/keyb inputs, even touch screen.. and I am one little developer).
 
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