I need the advice of the THN brain trust

[Tempscire]

Hello all,

I'm in need of some advice from you ladies and gentleman (probably the ladies more). This isn't a normal soap-box issue, but it is something I'd like to be treated seriously so I'm sticking it here.

In February I started seeing my supervisor at work. We'd both only been in the job for about a week when we got together (this isn't really important, but I'm including it anyway.) At the time she was still with someone. This guy has hit her before and has cheated on her a few times too. She'd been with him for 4 years and was sick and tired of it and she really liked me. Valentines day card, flirting, lots of talking into the small hours of the night etc. However I initially said that while she was with this guy, no matter how much she didn't like the relationship, I wasn't going to be the one to make anybody cheat.

So we went out a few times as friends but, as these things so often do, one thing lead to another. One night we were both a little drunk and got to kissing. It didn't go any further but we were all over each other for about 3 hours. The next day we both realised that we didn't feel guilty and she broke it off with the guy she was with to go out with me.

Cue a whirlwind romance, great sex and amazing fun had by all. We both think the other is amazing and, while neither of us are in love (it only being a month after all), both of us can definitely see us getting there if things carry on. Then suddenly, after another great day, she tells me that she wants to cool things off. She tells me that she still has feelings for her ex that she needs to resolve before she can take this any further. I assure her that I understand completely and that I understand that 4 years worth of feelings can't be switched off. So I spend the next month or so not knowing exactly where I am. We still see each other, we still have sex, we still kiss, but at the same time she's texting and ocassionally seeing her ex. I hold up reasonably well under the pressure, but I still have the odd outburst of frustration. I resolve to just give her time, but also to make sure she realises how amazing I think she is. In hindsight this may have been a touch overpowering but I'm not sure.

Eventually it gets to the point where I decide not to contact her until she contacts me first. It felt like over the past week or so I was the one making all the effort. Eventually, after about 5 days of nothing, I crack and send her a text asking if she is ok. I get a text back saying she is fine, having a lovely time in Brighton with her ex and is going to try again with him. Now I'd been worried that something like this was going to happen for a while, so I was somewhat prepared for it. What I wasn't prepared for was the callous way she seemed to have dealt with the matter. I was very upset and, after work one day, I confronted her about it in person.

Many things were said by both of us. I kept my cool as much as possible and explained how hurt I was at the way I'd been treated over the past week. She said that there wasn't really a good time to tell me, which I didn't accept, but in the end the issues were resolved. I said my piece in regards to her ex, namely that if she didn't want me that was her call, but she could do a million times better than a scumbag who had hit her and cheated on her. "If you don't want me thats fine, but anyone but him" were my eact words I think.

So time goes on. We see each other at work every day, which is hard, and things are quite strained, but we're both professinal and we stay as good friends as possible in the circumstances. A couple of weeks later we get to talking and, long story short, she comes over to mine and we have sex. It was amazing, we both enjoy ourselves immensely, and she tells me that she might be up for this more often (all my previous qualms about an affair are now gone as, essentially, I actively hate this guy now and actually take a vindictive pleasure in the whole thing). About a week later and everything goes about-face again, and she tells me to back off a little bit as she'll be seeing her ex more and she can't keep hiding messages from me when he's about. I've had enough of the games at this point, so I accede to her wishes and only ever reply to messages she sends me. I never start communication.

Lo and behold, she starts to text me again a few weeks ago. Innocent enough stuff really, just talking and being friendly again. Then last Monday, out of the blue, she invites me to her flat. Cue, once again, a great laugh and more amazing sex. I keep to my policy of only responding when she texts first, and I get invited around again on Tuesday and Friday of last week too, for the same purpose. She tells me that the ex is getting on her nerves and that he's also got suspicious she might be seeing someone else. I tell her I'm not going to comment on the situation as it's her decision and I refuse to get emotionally involved again if she doesn't know what she wants or where her head is.

Now, 3 days on, and I haven't heard from her again in 4 days. She told me she might be unable to talk until this evening as she was spending the weekend with him, but for some reason I've had an awful weekend full of worry. Why hasn't she text me? What if she goes off the whole thing again? What if...?

I know she hasn't sounded like the best person so far, but I want to assure you that she's awesome. She's intelligent, funny, caring, drop-dead gorgeous as far as I'm concerned and we really seem to have a chemistry going on. I'm honestly prepared, in my own mind, to go through all this if it means being with her. I'm aware that this whole thing is liable to blow up in my face and end up with me getting hurt again, but I'm willing to take that risk.

Thanks if you've read this far, because now I have some questions I'd like some honest opinions to.

1) Do you think she's messing me about? For what it's worth I genuinely think that she's not that type of person, and she is just honestly conflicted, but I'm not sure.

2) Why am I getting so hung up on this?

3) What should I do if she decides she wants to get back with me?

4) Has anyone been in some similar situation and can you offer me any advice from experience?

Thanks in advance and sorry about the wall of text.

 

[Spicypixel]

He probably sucks at sex, you probably fill that gap.
Enjoy that role.
Also punch yourself every time you feel some sort of emotional response.

 

[Ronin Storm]

Let me preface my response with two or three key points so you see where I'm coming from.

First, I present Aspergers. Means my perspective on the world is skewed.

Second, I'm hardly a Cassanova myself.

Third, I intend this to be helpful but if any of this seems inflammatory or disrespectful I didn't intend that (see above on being Aspie).

1) Do you think she's messing me about? For what it's worth I genuinely think that she's not that type of person, and she is just honestly conflicted, but I'm not sure.

How old is she? Roughly same age as you?

In my experience to date, many "younger" people haven't got themselves figured out yet and this may be a natural product of that confusion. She may not know what she wants and, instead, be bouncing from emotion to emotion.

The question for you is: regardless of what is going on in her head, how would you like to proceed? Your feelings are as important as hers (or, from the perspective of any individual, actually paramount, on a personal scale).

So, rationally (and that may be in short supply just now, I know), do you want to battle it out or would you like an end to the upset?

2) Why am I getting so hung up on this?

You're upset at being mistreated? If so, that would seem to me to be entirely reasonable, from your perspective. I obviously can't speak to the "objective" (is there truly any such thing?) or for her (as she isn't here to present her point of view).

Emotional things act below, around or to the side of rational things, I find. You may, rationally, believe that you're being messed around (or not). You may, simultaneously, feel that you do (or do not) want to be with her, exclusively.

3) What should I do if she decides she wants to get back with me?

Be clear on what you want, as far as you can be.

If you want an exclusive relationship, it's okay to say that.

Conversely, her responses are equally valid. She may not want an exclusive relationship. She may not be ready to stop bouncing back and forth. In the grand scheme of things, that's fine. But it is still acceptable that you request that, for a relationship between the two of you to continue, that your wishes are respected.

If she's not up for that, it's not that she's bad or playing you (necessarily). Just conflicted, like most humans. You then get the same decision we all get: will I stick with this, or move on?

4) Has anyone been in some similar situation and can you offer me any advice from experience?

Yep. Been here. I don't really want to go into specifics on a public forum but suffice to say that I sympathise.

[...snip...] So, yeah, did my usual Aspie thing of explaining myself by using me as an example. I'll not do that here unless, for some reason, you think that might be helpful.

I'll leave you with a quote from fiction that seems to be on my mind a lot at the moment.

"Fact the facts. Then act."
[Quellcrist Falconer, a fictional character referenced in Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan]

 

[Pwnstar]

Delete Facebook
Lawyer up
Hit the gym

Or...

Realise she's being a massive whore and move on to someone better?

 

[Tempscire]

How old is she? Roughly same age as you?

In my experience to date, many "younger" people haven't got themselves figured out yet and this may be a natural product of that confusion. She may not know what she wants and, instead, be bouncing from emotion to emotion.

She's 28 and, as far as I know, is at a time in her life when she wants to be settling down, which appears to be at complete odds to what she's doing now.

 

[Ronin Storm]

[mod]Ya, so, just a reminder: this is in the Soap Box, so thoughtful, helpful, respectful responses are appropriate. Thanks.[/mod]

 

[Ronin Storm]

She's 28 and, as far as I know, is at a time in her life when she wants to be settling down, which appears to be at complete odds to what she's doing now.

That would indicate to me that she is conflicted about what she wants, or wants both chaos and stability.

For the former, she'll just be in the same camp as everyone else who is conflicted about what they want; no foul here, though it doesn't mean you need to live with it.

For the latter, I imagine it is possible to achieve but practically I believe it could be very difficult to live with if you don't also want both chaos and stability.

 

[Kasatka]

I've been in kind of similar situations before and all i can suggest as helpful advice is this: communication.

It often seems like things don't need to be discussed, or that if you do you might ruin everything, but without a proper dialogue and a mutual understanding of what each party wants in a relationship it just won't work.

Also don't kid yourself into thinking you can 'handle' being her casual bit on the side as ultimately things will come to a head and you may not like the outcome.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[Ronin Storm]

It often seems like things don't need to be discussed, or that if you do you might ruin everything, but without a proper dialogue and a mutual understanding of what each party wants in a relationship it just won't work.

I'd caveat that with "just won't work long term" but otherwise I'd completely agree.

 

[Wol]

Out of interest, how do you know that shes not doing a "I dont want to txt him first to make him think that I'm desperate" thing just like you're doing, just she gives in sooner usually?

As Kasakta says: Communication. You dont get anywhere if you dont *talk*. (p.s. sex != talking)

 

[Kasatka]

I'd caveat that with "just won't work long term" but otherwise I'd completely agree.

Depends on your definition of long term, but aye i agree.

 

[Tempscire]

I've been in kind of similar situations before and all i can suggest as helpful advice is this: communication.

It often seems like things don't need to be discussed, or that if you do you might ruin everything, but without a proper dialogue and a mutual understanding of what each party wants in a relationship it just won't work.

Also don't kid yourself into thinking you can 'handle' being her casual bit on the side as ultimately things will come to a head and you may not like the outcome.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

I agree completely with this. However communicating what I'm feeling and wanting to know where things are going has scared her off before, I suppose I'm worried it will do so again. I'm sort of sabotaging myself here because while I agree that I can't be her 'bit on the side' forever and I'd like to know where this is going, I'd rather have some of her than none of her (not meant in a smutty way).

Out of interest, how do you know that shes not doing a "I dont want to txt him first to make him think that I'm desperate" thing just like you're doing, just she gives in sooner usually?

I don't, to be honest. But it's worked better this way so far, so I'm wary of changing 'tactics' at the moment.

 

[Ronin Storm]

However communicating what I'm feeling and wanting to know where things are going has scared her off before, I suppose I'm worried it will do so again.
[...snip...]
I don't, to be honest. But it's worked better this way so far, so I'm wary of changing 'tactics' at the moment.

There's always (at least) two vectors to the question "where are things going?".

Time - short vs long
Scope - small vs large

e.g. Short & Small

"Are you up for going to the cinema with me on Friday?"

e.g. Short & Large

"Are you up for going to China for a week with me on Friday?"

e.g. Long & Small

"Are you up for training for the London Marathon with me?"

e.g. Long & Large

"Are you wanting to getting married and/or have children with me?"

Basic thing there is that it pays to be clear between the difference when you're asking questions and that "Long" or "Large" have higher emotional weight attached to them. The questions above are somewhat spurious, except perhaps the last one. You may think you're asking "are we going out or what?" and she may be hearing "are you prepared to settle down with me and have children?" ... or vice versa, of course.

Thing is, it doesn't make any of the questions wrong and if you want to know the answer then asking is a good, direct way at getting there. Of course, in asking, you need to be prepared to accept the answer as being "no" (or "yes") otherwise it's not a real question; it's more a trap to be fallen into, and that's no good at all.

Seems to me you're worried that asking will get you "no" answers. But if it's "no", really, then isn't it better to just face that and choose what to do next? Isn't hiding from "no" (or "yes") just setting yourself up for a sucker punch later, moreover one that you kinda knew was coming but made worse now you also have to face the delayed culmination of your own fear?

(Hmm, that may read badly. Sorry about that. Meant to be a "face the facts" sort of thing.)

 

[Haven]

Hello all,
1) Do you think she's messing me about? For what it's worth I genuinely think that she's not that type of person, and she is just honestly conflicted, but I'm not sure.

2) Why am I getting so hung up on this?

3) What should I do if she decides she wants to get back with me?

4) Has anyone been in some similar situation and can you offer me any advice from experience?

Thanks in advance and sorry about the wall of text.

1) Yes possibly. Whilst you are prepared to be the bit on the side and she's getting her needs met for security/relationship from this other man and then sex/intimacy from you then there is little reason for her to change her habits. At the moment it really does sound like she has it good and until she's found out or something else changes the status quo then why would she change things ?

2) Because you like her, because you've had the sex part and now you want to move onto the more social and companionable parts of a relationship. See the following chart. Sounds to me like you're bouncing around between level 1 and 2. This is gross simplification so please don't be offended by it. When emotions over-ride our logic centres then its really hard to see why anything happens. I include the above only because it sometimes helps me understand myself Also, not knowing what you want and/or how you can get it can be incredibly frustrating and will run you in circles if you let it.

3) You need to decide how little you're prepared to accept from her in order to full fill your own needs. What is it you're not getting right now that you want to get. Can you get that with her still seeing this other guy ? Decide what your minimal "needs met" are and go from there on whether she can give up what she has and meet them.

4) Nothing quite the same but like everyone I've fallen hard and gotten myself in a right mess emotionally in the past with relationships. Fortunately good family and friends always helps sort out the aftermath. My only advice is be honest with yourself and her about what you want and what you can offer - have an honest conversation and try to keep the emotion level down so you can think clearly. I tend to find writing things out clarifies my thoughts, if that helps you then write it all out and go over it each day for a few days until you know what you're trying to achieve here.

Best of luck.

Regards

Haven

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

The Op was very well written, while i have no experience of this, but i would wonder if you were sure of whether theres any other men in the equation besides you and her "ex"?

 

[Huung]

Honestly, I don't know if I can phrase this without sounding like a douchebag, but it looks to me like she's just playing the both of you.

It has to be you who steps up and takes control of the relationship you two have, whatever it may be at the moment. She's got both you and her "ex" in a position where she can flit between you as she pleases, and neither of you (I assume he doesn't know) are doing anything to stop her.
She's being greedy, and getting the best of both worlds. Why would she want that to end? I don't know her, so obviously I won't bring her personality into question, you'll know that far better than I ever will - but even if she isn't being greedy intentionally, or maliciously, she is being greedy.

The longer you leave it the more it will spiral out of control, as you've already witnessed first-hand. Biting the bullet, confronting her, and possibly breaking it off (if it comes to that) is by far the hardest part. Deceit and lies are our natural defences as humans to avoid being hurt - being truthful is always much harder. You really do have to think hard about what it is you want. If you develop feelings for her, and she uses that to get close to you and take only what she wants before she does this to someone else, that's not fair on you.
I assume there's an element of protection you feel over her too, due to the nature of her ex. As such, I'm sure you're nothing but nice to her. This will be yet another reason she's drawn back to you, the comfort and security factor. She gets one thing from you, and another from him, and no matter how good you are to her, for some reason she still goes back to him afterwards.
It's frustrating, I'm oh so aware of how frustrating it is - but you eventually accept that the pain it's causing you isn't worth it. If she has something drawing her back to him, even when he's like that to her, she clearly has more than just lingering feelings for him. Admitting that to yourself and backing out of the relationship whilst it's still early days will be something you look back on and regret - but not half as much as if you actually carry this on to breaking point.

I wish you all the best, Temps, I really hope this all works out with as little heartbreak as possible.

(I also realise this has ended up being rather ranty, for which I apologise. I tend to rant when I'm empathising).

 

[Belfa]

Took quite an intrest to this post. You can have the lady tips just this once.

1) I personally think she is messing you about and the reason for this is the on and off communication.. You dont just go have sex with someone a few times and then blank it off for a while to go see her husband that beats and cheats on her. Although maybe us readers have got the wrong idea of her. It really comes down on what YOU think of her but maybe a proper 1 on 1 chat no sex or nothing and just see if she really wants to be with you or not.

2)Right hung up I take it means like sad?.. Maybe she could be leading you on a little bit. It seems that she is from an outsiders perspective back to answer 1. confrontation and a good cup of coffee might be your answer.

3)Dont seem to desperate to take her back now I dont mean be a dick. If I was you id honestly tell her how you feel and explain to her that you really wanna be with her and does she feel the same? tell her you need a decision in the nicest possible way.

4) Im no woman expert im sure theres plenty more people with better advice and ive never had an experience like this before. Having said that I think i did quite well. btw the 1-4 is answers to each of your questions

Reasons why I cant share experiences is because im only 15.

 

[Dr Drae]

Okay, I know am only 17, but I spend a LOT of time around women; I'm essentially the 'gay best friend' figure, without liking men, so (without sounding pompous >.< ) I've got a bit of an idea of what I'm talking about, although there are obviously differences between 18 and 28.

1) Personally, I think she's messing you around. Badly. I know some really nice girls, but they just want too much; I imagine she'll sit there and justify what she's doing to herself, so I'm not saying she's a bad person, but what she's doing is not healthy for you in any way; which'll lead on to my second point in a minute. Essentially, you really need to say to her "him or me, because this doesn't work for me". I know it sucks, because she sounds great for you, and if she chooses him, then you lose out on that but I guarantee it'll be better for you in the long run.

Essentially, I am forced to agree with Huung; she's playing you both.

2) You're getting hung up on this because you're being really messed around, and I think you really quite care about her. Which makes this suck even more.

3) You need to set out what's happening, etc. Like, if she gets back with you; she needs to understand you can't deal with this whole "I'm with you, no wait, things might work with him" thing. Like I said in 1) ; it could end up with you hurting but you'll recover, and although I hate the saying 'there's plenty more fish in the sea' (I want that goddamn fish, after all), there will be better women, in better positions.

4) I've seen the same situation from the woman's side, and there are a few things to note. Firstly, and I know this sounds harsh, I could easily be wrong, but she's always going to make it sound worse to you than it really is .

It's a difficult situation, I know, I really do, so I wish you all the best with this. If you need to mull anything over with me at all, then chuck me a PM.

 

[Skcornnelg]

I curious if you have ever seen any physical signs of her been hit/abused. It is incomprehensible to me how much she seems to be sticking by her boyfriend when he is beatin n cheatin on her.
I know that in many cases victims of continual domestic violence are often too afraid to seek help or leave their abuser but from your post she doesn't appear to be one of these people. Plus I don't understand that if the time you have together is so great why would she choose to repeatedly go back to someone who takes her for granted?

The time you have spent worrying over her, stressing about the relationship is time you could have spent meeting other women and potentially meeting someone who will put as much effort into a relationship that you seem to.

Apologies if this seems negative towards her but being a 3rd person in a relationship, especially one with a history of violence, never have happy endings.

Delete her number.

 

[Tempscire]

I curious if you have ever seen any physical signs of her been hit/abused

I feel I should clarify the hitting thing. It's not, I gather, a regular thing. It's happened twice I believe, a good while apart. My point to her is that it's unforgivable no matter how often or what the circumstances.

It is incomprehensible to me how much she seems to be sticking by her boyfriend when he is beatin n cheatin on her.
[SNIP...]
Plus I don't understand that if the time you have together is so great why would she choose to repeatedly go back to someone who takes her for granted?

This is, I think, also part of my problem. I don't understand why she would go back to the scumbag. How am I supposed to feel as being apparently second choice to THAT?

Thanks for all your comments, they have been thoughtful and respectful. I never take offence to a truthful opinion, so please don't worry about offending me if you have anything else to add.