Israel and Lebanon
- Thread starter Gopha
- Start date
waterproofbob
Junior Administrator
don't worry soon dubya will declare war on both of parties involved then rape another area of the world into submission on the grounds that he is helping.
Yes it is Lebanon and yes they are civilian apartment blocks that the Israeli rockets and mortars are hitting. Likewise Hezbolah's rockets are hitting Israeli civilian appartment blocks.
We "must remember" to check our facts.
Its also sad to see that we have not advanced much from a method of warfare (mortars) first used extensively in 1914. Or rockets (used primarily in WWII). Both are innacurate and inefectual when used in densely populated areas and yet still used.
We "must remember" to check our facts.
Its also sad to see that we have not advanced much from a method of warfare (mortars) first used extensively in 1914. Or rockets (used primarily in WWII). Both are innacurate and inefectual when used in densely populated areas and yet still used.
E
elDiablo
Guest
haven said:
But they are cheap, and easy. Which is why the army types think "cheapness over accuracy!". Which is always good for the civilians, as you said.
pHatBambi
In Cryo Sleep
Ok I have been following this situation quite closely through The Times website as I believe they are less biased then the BBC.
Some good articles on the background situation as well as political and military goals of Hezbolla and Israel.
It's pretty desperate at the moment.
Israel is hitting Hezbolla position that are being set-up within civilian quarters. Israel is not going to be shy about hitting it's enemies wherever they are placed.
Unfortunately for the civilians and evacuees the main roads and bridges out of the south have been all been targeted and destroyed. Also the immediate evacutation route out of Lebanon into Syria is being bombed in an attempt to stop Hezbolla from moving the captured israeli prisoners out of the country.
If anyone has more sources of information could you please post it up here as I'd like to try and get as broad a viewpoint on this conflict as possible.
Cheers.
Some good articles on the background situation as well as political and military goals of Hezbolla and Israel.
It's pretty desperate at the moment.
Israel is hitting Hezbolla position that are being set-up within civilian quarters. Israel is not going to be shy about hitting it's enemies wherever they are placed.
Unfortunately for the civilians and evacuees the main roads and bridges out of the south have been all been targeted and destroyed. Also the immediate evacutation route out of Lebanon into Syria is being bombed in an attempt to stop Hezbolla from moving the captured israeli prisoners out of the country.
If anyone has more sources of information could you please post it up here as I'd like to try and get as broad a viewpoint on this conflict as possible.
Cheers.
P
Phryxus
Guest
Good links Bambi, it tells the whole story and gives you a sense of what's actually going on in an admittedly bizarre situation. What I can also see however, is how this new 'conflict' in the Middle East is another example of posturing by the Israeli government and its Arab neighbours - each one proving to justify its existence in a hotly contested region.
I enjoyed reading how Gopha picked a side in this (sorry for being singled out!) but the truth is that no-one can really claim to have the moral high ground at all. Since the early 1900s and Israel's inception, there has been conflict between countries and regions in the area - even British forces being targeted in the post WWII era by the Israeli paramilitary organisations. It's a hard situation to fully describe and as an outsider myself, I can only try, but what I do understand however, is that struggling to keep a country intact that half of the Arab world still refuse to officially recognise (apart from Egypt and possibly Iran/Iraq) results in the day to day retaliations we see regularly on the news.
In its opening paragraph, the Times article reveals how the new Israeli government is seen as unproven and 'weak' in the eyes of many. It is times like these where Israel has launched pre-emptive strikes, such as in the Six day War, that knocked out the fighting capability of most Arab armies and resulted in huge land gains by Israel. Whilst not entirely pre-emptive this time, a strong military response is Israel's only real defence - the situation having been likened to having enemies on all corners and a country on a constant state of alert. To have not launched a military operation would have left the country vulnerable to the numerous extremists that supposedly exist, waiting in the wings.
This, of course, does not make it right - but then again, war in itself is not a 'logical' activity. It is far too easy to denounce Israel as the aggressor and demonise them for their haphazard accuracy in civilian areas, but it is also too easy to label the Arabs as the silent victims, who are picked on due to no fault of their own. What is plain to see however, is that the fact this conflict is happening shows that the differences between two very different cultures have not been rectified by the previous peace negotiations and land returns. If a situation arises, the solution has nearly always been military, as was also the case in the supposed shelling of a beach and the surrounding village by Israeli warships. As a result, I personally can see no end to the Arab-Israeli 'problem', as it has been labelled, in the near future. What I expect to see will be the current pattern of attacks and then a forceful retaliation - which is exactly what is happening here, with both sides just as bad as each other and another example of irrational conflict.
EDIT: Light on the links I know, but Wikipedia has all the dates and facts of previous conflicts and military action if you're up for a history lesson.
I enjoyed reading how Gopha picked a side in this (sorry for being singled out!) but the truth is that no-one can really claim to have the moral high ground at all. Since the early 1900s and Israel's inception, there has been conflict between countries and regions in the area - even British forces being targeted in the post WWII era by the Israeli paramilitary organisations. It's a hard situation to fully describe and as an outsider myself, I can only try, but what I do understand however, is that struggling to keep a country intact that half of the Arab world still refuse to officially recognise (apart from Egypt and possibly Iran/Iraq) results in the day to day retaliations we see regularly on the news.
In its opening paragraph, the Times article reveals how the new Israeli government is seen as unproven and 'weak' in the eyes of many. It is times like these where Israel has launched pre-emptive strikes, such as in the Six day War, that knocked out the fighting capability of most Arab armies and resulted in huge land gains by Israel. Whilst not entirely pre-emptive this time, a strong military response is Israel's only real defence - the situation having been likened to having enemies on all corners and a country on a constant state of alert. To have not launched a military operation would have left the country vulnerable to the numerous extremists that supposedly exist, waiting in the wings.
This, of course, does not make it right - but then again, war in itself is not a 'logical' activity. It is far too easy to denounce Israel as the aggressor and demonise them for their haphazard accuracy in civilian areas, but it is also too easy to label the Arabs as the silent victims, who are picked on due to no fault of their own. What is plain to see however, is that the fact this conflict is happening shows that the differences between two very different cultures have not been rectified by the previous peace negotiations and land returns. If a situation arises, the solution has nearly always been military, as was also the case in the supposed shelling of a beach and the surrounding village by Israeli warships. As a result, I personally can see no end to the Arab-Israeli 'problem', as it has been labelled, in the near future. What I expect to see will be the current pattern of attacks and then a forceful retaliation - which is exactly what is happening here, with both sides just as bad as each other and another example of irrational conflict.
EDIT: Light on the links I know, but Wikipedia has all the dates and facts of previous conflicts and military action if you're up for a history lesson.
Pubic_Warrior
In Cryo Sleep
to be honest i dont mind what Israel and the other country do about this aslong as the Brits are evacuated, im following the Afganistan news about the British soldiers, what Israel do is none of my business and i cant stop it, however Afganistan is my 1st Tour of Duty in the Army, but thats not for a year and a bit.
And i was just wondering Why Israel are doing this? i dont think i ever court a reason.
somebody posted that Morters and Rockets are being used and they are not advanced well Israel and the other place dont have what you call a fully developed Army, so i would imagine the weapons to be "primative" as they are easy to produce, cheap and dont require a university degree to use. i think that one side will crack before Mr Bush decides to get involved
And i was just wondering Why Israel are doing this? i dont think i ever court a reason.
somebody posted that Morters and Rockets are being used and they are not advanced well Israel and the other place dont have what you call a fully developed Army, so i would imagine the weapons to be "primative" as they are easy to produce, cheap and dont require a university degree to use. i think that one side will crack before Mr Bush decides to get involved
Land, Power, Religion.Pubic_Warrior said:
Israel is a nuclear power that is both supplied with all weapons of modern warfare and trained in their use by the USA. Israel has a very fully developed army, air force and navy. For a country with a small local population they have a very very large army and enforced national service ensures they have a well trained populace to pool from.
He's already involved i.e. he equipped the Israeli army and has yet to say a bad word against their actions.
Pestcontrol
In Cryo Sleep
I agree with Haven for the most part, and indeed as Phryxus says, there is no moral high ground. I do think Israel's violence does not compare to the damage caused by Hezbollah, the descripancies in this are their political and strategical motives.
Lebanon is one of the few Arab nations i'm sympathetic to, after years of unofficial Syrian domination they've finally managed to work them out, it took a high profile assasination, mass demonstrations and UN pressure to get there, but there was hope for a while.
However, Hezbollah still holds significant power, with a lot of support in the south (even being a member of the Lebanese government, yes, Gopha, they're more than rogue terrorists), and is supported by Syria and Iran, yet Libanon is taking all the hits, a very sour reward for the recent efforts and progress.
Iran in particular is getting scarier by the day. And from Syria's point of view it's double edged action, as Israel may force the Lebanese public opinion back to their side again, and they get their revenge on the progressive forces that instigated Syria's retreat.
Lebanon is one of the few Arab nations i'm sympathetic to, after years of unofficial Syrian domination they've finally managed to work them out, it took a high profile assasination, mass demonstrations and UN pressure to get there, but there was hope for a while.
However, Hezbollah still holds significant power, with a lot of support in the south (even being a member of the Lebanese government, yes, Gopha, they're more than rogue terrorists), and is supported by Syria and Iran, yet Libanon is taking all the hits, a very sour reward for the recent efforts and progress.
Iran in particular is getting scarier by the day. And from Syria's point of view it's double edged action, as Israel may force the Lebanese public opinion back to their side again, and they get their revenge on the progressive forces that instigated Syria's retreat.
Taffy
New Member
I'm supporting Israel in this case, but i'm not too sure about their tactics, they seem to be a bit trigger-happy on civilian targets. However, civilian casualties are always bound to happen in War, especially if your using fire-power from the air or from long-range weaponary e.g. artillery, as they aren't as accurate.
Why am I supporting Israel? Because they are trying to do the same thing to Hezbullah in Lebanon as we are doing to Al-quaeda in Afghanistan. They are just going about it in a different way.
Why am I supporting Israel? Because they are trying to do the same thing to Hezbullah in Lebanon as we are doing to Al-quaeda in Afghanistan. They are just going about it in a different way.
Taffy
New Member
haven said:
They need a large Army though don't they. I mean, they're the only non-muslim state for hundreds of miles, and they need to be able to defend themselves if attacked by any of their neighbours because of religion and the instability in the Middle-East. Whether their large army is just rocking the boat more or not is an entirely different debate though.
Pestcontrol
In Cryo Sleep
Afghanistan is not Lebanon, however. Remember well Hezbollah is supported by Syria and Iran. Lebanon has large groups of christians also and as such is the least "muslim" of the nations Isreal borders.
I think it's far too different to be compared to the invasion of Afghanistan. Lebanon's regime has done nothing to deserve this, their control over the south of the nation is too limited. Israel's statement that the Lebanese government has failed to contain Hezbollah may be correct, but you can hardly blame them for it given the situation they are in.
I think it's far too different to be compared to the invasion of Afghanistan. Lebanon's regime has done nothing to deserve this, their control over the south of the nation is too limited. Israel's statement that the Lebanese government has failed to contain Hezbollah may be correct, but you can hardly blame them for it given the situation they are in.
F
Fi$hy
Guest
Pubic_Warrior said:
Dollar for Dollar, the Israeli army surpasses even the U.S in terms of cost-effectiveness. Practically all Israeli equipment is American (Read Apache longbows) and the equipment that isn't (i.e the Arrow missile system) far surpasses anything any other nation has (read, Israel is the only nation with any effective anti-ballistic missile weaponry)
Israel is and has been a pretty powerful nation, taking on most of the middle east, and even got away with attacking U.S warships during it's fight for sovereignty.
Why Israel gets so much support from the U.S? In the middle east, a Judaic nation is far more friendly than Islamic nations towards a predominatly Christian superpower.
Why a raw British Army recruit should care? The middle east hates Israel in general, and the war could escalate. Even if it doesn't, chances are the UN will send in peacekeepers at some point, and which army specialises in peacekeeping? - The British Army.
F
Fi$hy
Guest
Quite correct,
The first Israel - Lebanon war ended with Israel handing control of a DMZ to a christian militia, when the Christian militia failed, Israel hoped Lebanese troops would deploy to the area, but Lebanese defence forces in the South are barely over company strength, meaning Hezbollah has effectivly free rule of the South.
The first Israel - Lebanon war ended with Israel handing control of a DMZ to a christian militia, when the Christian militia failed, Israel hoped Lebanese troops would deploy to the area, but Lebanese defence forces in the South are barely over company strength, meaning Hezbollah has effectivly free rule of the South.
Pestcontrol
In Cryo Sleep
Don't forget, fishy, that there is a very large jewish population in the United States, all supporting Israel financially (many jews abroad are quite fanatical in supporting Israel), and exercising political power during elections, voting for the candidate who supports Israel.
Ironically Gore's running mate, Lieberman, was jewish, yet Bush turns out as supporting Israel. IIRC most jews support the Republican party.
Ironically Gore's running mate, Lieberman, was jewish, yet Bush turns out as supporting Israel. IIRC most jews support the Republican party.
F
Fi$hy
Guest
Nanor said:
How? The British Army has a fantastically good reputation for peace keeping in Sierra Leone and the Balkans, why wouldn't British Troops be sent to maintain a DMZ?