Huung
Well-Known Member
This is a post I've been wanting to make for a while now, but have put off due to fears of it being met by rather strong negative reactions. Nevertheless, I shall never find out unless I at least try.
Firstly, I wish to address the question:
What is a loot system?
For most people this will instantly conjure up the image of some hard-core raiding guild, and a system like DKP (Dragon Kill Points). People earn points for kills and use those points "purchase" the loot which drops from bosses. DKP has always tended to be rather strict, with the raid leader being able to punish via negative DKP (That's a -50 DKP etc) and thus for the more casual raiding guilds, such as ourselves, the very idea of a "loot system" sounds like a turn-off.
What we all need to accept is that any system in which loot is handed out is by it's very nature a "loot system". You can call it whatever you like, but that's what it is. From giving out loot based on who needs it the most, to using the in-game rolling system, to whoever can /dance first after a boss is downed - it's all a loot system.
So, to clarify:
What is the current loot system within The Haven?
Yes, I was lazy and just quoted Zhinrak's post on this from earlier this month, as it's the most recent official clarification of our loot system which exists.
This has been The Haven's loot system for quite some time now, and has always seemed to work in the past. It was introduced (correct me if I'm remembering this incorrectly) back in the Golden Age of raiding during TBC, when the guild was running 25man content. It was brought in due to the sudden influx of people due to moving from the 10man content up to the 25man, and as we had so many additional people raiding at a time, something needed to be done to keep the distribution of the loot fair.
The bosses in 25man content also drop a fair bit more loot per kill than 10man bosses. This is why the "3 item limit" seems a little strange these days, as it's highly unlikely anyone will get 3 items which even suit their spec from a single 10man raid, let alone be able to win the roll for all 3.
With 10man raiding being at the forefront of our progression (at least for the time being) I feel we would be justified in altering the loot system accordingly. This is my first reason for wanting a change to the current system, but not the only reason. Onto the main part of this post!
In the guild currently, raid-ready-AND-tested we have:
4 tanks
5 healers
11 DPS
There are others who currently haven't had spots in the raid, but who's gear and performance in heroics would suggest they're capable of raiding.
I therefore count at least 20 people. For a 10 man raid.
This means at least half the people who are capable of being in the raid each week, aren't. This leads me onto my biggest issue with our current system:
What chance does someone not in the raid currently have of winning loot?
Answer: 0
Personally I feel this to be a huge issue. Each week the raid is based around class balance within the group (not least due to Baradin Hold dropping specific class pieces) thus if we have 2 or more of a class, there's a very real chance of only one of that class getting into the raid. Whilst so far this has been done as fairly as possible, as long as we have many raiders to fewer raid spots, this will always be an issue in some form.
So, what can be done about this?
Ideally we would want all of those who have signed up to the raid, and are capable of raiding (people shouldn't really be bumped from trial to full raider unless they are of course) to be rewarded for being available.
Currently this is very much not the case. Only those in the raid are rewarded, and those sitting out get absolutely nothing (apart from possibly higher priority at being invited to the raid next week).
Take an example situation with the current loot system.
Shaman A (ShamA) and Shaman B (ShamB) both want a spot in the raid.
This week, ShamA is chosen, some bosses are killed, and ShamA wins a piece of loot.
The second week there are enough spots for both shaman, and a piece of loot drops which is useful for both.
Both have been available both weeks, and both are equally capable in the raid. ShamA has so far won one epic in raids, ShamB has won none. Under the current loot system both do a /roll and ShamA rolls higher. ShamA wins another piece.
This is the kind of situation in which the current loot system is unfair. If ShamB had been invited to the first raid instead of ShamA, it could have been him winning the extras. This is a combination of ShamB not being rewarded enough for being available to raid, and ShamA not dropping in priority having already won a piece of gear.
THUS! I propose we change the loot system to something which will address both of these issues AT THE SAME TIME!
Whilst doing my usual copious amounts of research on any subject which interests me, I came across a system which looks perfect for a guild such as ours.
EPGP
Whilst it would be nice if people read all of that article, I'm already creating a wall of text here, so I'll try and keep it short and give real world examples.
EPGP stands for "Effort Points, Gear Points" (Not to be confused with gear score).
The way the system works, at a basic level, is you are rewarded with Effort Points, EPs, for being available for raiding.
Gear is valued on a formula which takes into account the item level of the item, as well as it's slot type. So, a chestpiece is worth more than a wristpiece etc. This gives you the GP of items.
Using the EP and GP a priority is worked out. What this comes down to is those who have won pieces having a lower priority than those who haven't.
In the previous example, once ShamA won the piece of gear, he would become lower on the priorities. Thus in the second raid, ShamB would have priority on the loot.
EPGP also introduces % decay. What this means is that over time your points will drop. This isn't done in such a severe way that you'll have to attend or be available for every raid or else you won't have a chance - but it does stop those who are away from raiding for a long time from coming back and winning loot. It also encourages people to sign up regularly, which is only a good thing.
A common concern with loot systems is the points spiralling out of control, and causing a points inflation where more points are coming into the system than going out. % decay addresses this problem.
Another common concern is, "I'm not ready to raid yet and by the time I am everyone will have so many points I won't be able to catch up". With the EPGP system, and the way priority works, you'll only have to attend ~3 full week's worth of raids to catch up at any point.
I can see that all of this sounds like an administration nightmare, but there are addons to take care of all of this for you. No silly paperwork, all you have to do is clear the officer notes and set up the addon initially, and then just watch it happily do it's thing.
So, examples. For the sake of simplicity I'm going to do something similar to the WoWWiki examples, and assume every piece of gear is worth 100 GP, and the rate of decay is 10%. Furthermore 100 EP is awarded per raid attended/signed for.
Picking 3 TOTALLY RANDOM names; Woogle, Zhinrak, and Ránëwén.
In the highly likely event all 3 attend the same raid, this is how things could go.
Over 4 raids, Woogle attends 2 of them (raids 1 and 3), Zhinrak all 4, and Ránëwén all 4. (No one likes Woogle anyway).
For each table other than the first I've included the decayed values. So at initial setup, with initial values of EP and GP at 0, the table would look as follows:
1) During the first raid Woogle and Zhinrak both win a piece of gear. Note that when GP is 0 it is counted as 1 for the purposes of Priority (as anything /0 = infinity, and that's haxx). After the first raid the table now looks like:
You can see Ránëwén has a far higher priority. This will normalise once he wins a drop.
2) In the second raid Woogle is absent, but the other two attend. Zhinrak wins yet another piece of loot. At the end of the second raid, the table looks like:
Ránëwén still has a much higher priority, and Woogle and Zhinrak are now equal. Zhinrak winning a piece of gear, and Woogle missing the raid have both dropped their priorities from what they could have been.
3) In the third raid Woogle and Ránëwén attend. Zhinrak is available, but not chosen to go. Both Woogle and Ránëwén want a caster neck piece which drops, but Ránëwén gets priority on the roll and wins it. Therefore at the end of the third raid, the table looks as follows:
NOTE: Zhinrak still got EP as although he didn't raid, he was available to. Also note now everyone has won something the priority will no longer decay.
Ránëwén winning something has dropped his priority back to a normal level. He has won the same amount of loot as Woogle, but as he has attended more raids he is still a slightly higher priority should they both end up rolling on the same item again in the next raid. Zhinrak is lowest as he has won gear twice.
4) In the fourth raid Woogle is once again absent, whilst Zhinrak and Ránëwén both attend. Ránëwén wins another piece of gear. At the start of the fifth raid (end of the fourth) the table is now:
As Ránëwén has won two pieces of gear now, the same as Zhinrak, his priority has dropped lower still. Zhinrak's priority has now increased to the same as Woogle's again, as he didn't win anything this time.
Why then is Zhinrak is a higher priority than Ránëwén, despite them attending the same number of raids and both obtaining two pieces of gear? Well, this is due to the way the decay system works. As Ránëwén won his two pieces later than Zhinrak, they haven't had as much time to decay in value. This solves the issue of new players coming into a raid with a very high priority (as we saw in the first two diagrams) and winning successive pieces of loot over those who have been waiting possibly weeks for pieces. It serves to balance out the rate at which people win the gear overall.
In terms of someone with a ridiculous priority coming in and taking an item raiders have been waiting for weeks for, a minimum EP constraint can be introduced. This would mean new raiders would have to raid for a couple of weeks before being able to challenge those with higher EP, and thus make it fair on those who have been waiting and raiding patiently. With the way the Trial Raider rank works atm, and with them usually having 2-3 week's worth of raiding before promotion, this works out rather nicely, as Trial Raiders already have a lower priority than Raiders, and thus the minimum EP restriction would take place via our own rank rules.
I hope these tables are clear enough for people to understand, I must admit looking at the WoWWiki ones I had to read through 3 times before I was fully happy with how the decay was working etc. If things are unclear, or I've got numbers wrong somewhere, do tell me.
I want to make it clear that I'm suggesting this because it's a fairer system, and would help benefit the guild overall, with no raiders feeling quite as left out as they currently do. At the end of the day, all I want is a fair system which is of greater benefit to the guild. I feel this is it.
I really would like to hear people's opinions on this, and any issues which people can see with this system. Sorry it ended up being such a wall of text, but I wanted to make sure I clarified as much as possible in my initial post!
Firstly, I wish to address the question:
What is a loot system?
For most people this will instantly conjure up the image of some hard-core raiding guild, and a system like DKP (Dragon Kill Points). People earn points for kills and use those points "purchase" the loot which drops from bosses. DKP has always tended to be rather strict, with the raid leader being able to punish via negative DKP (That's a -50 DKP etc) and thus for the more casual raiding guilds, such as ourselves, the very idea of a "loot system" sounds like a turn-off.
What we all need to accept is that any system in which loot is handed out is by it's very nature a "loot system". You can call it whatever you like, but that's what it is. From giving out loot based on who needs it the most, to using the in-game rolling system, to whoever can /dance first after a boss is downed - it's all a loot system.
So, to clarify:
What is the current loot system within The Haven?
Yes, I was lazy and just quoted Zhinrak's post on this from earlier this month, as it's the most recent official clarification of our loot system which exists.
This has been The Haven's loot system for quite some time now, and has always seemed to work in the past. It was introduced (correct me if I'm remembering this incorrectly) back in the Golden Age of raiding during TBC, when the guild was running 25man content. It was brought in due to the sudden influx of people due to moving from the 10man content up to the 25man, and as we had so many additional people raiding at a time, something needed to be done to keep the distribution of the loot fair.
The bosses in 25man content also drop a fair bit more loot per kill than 10man bosses. This is why the "3 item limit" seems a little strange these days, as it's highly unlikely anyone will get 3 items which even suit their spec from a single 10man raid, let alone be able to win the roll for all 3.
With 10man raiding being at the forefront of our progression (at least for the time being) I feel we would be justified in altering the loot system accordingly. This is my first reason for wanting a change to the current system, but not the only reason. Onto the main part of this post!
In the guild currently, raid-ready-AND-tested we have:
4 tanks
5 healers
11 DPS
There are others who currently haven't had spots in the raid, but who's gear and performance in heroics would suggest they're capable of raiding.
I therefore count at least 20 people. For a 10 man raid.
This means at least half the people who are capable of being in the raid each week, aren't. This leads me onto my biggest issue with our current system:
What chance does someone not in the raid currently have of winning loot?
Answer: 0
Personally I feel this to be a huge issue. Each week the raid is based around class balance within the group (not least due to Baradin Hold dropping specific class pieces) thus if we have 2 or more of a class, there's a very real chance of only one of that class getting into the raid. Whilst so far this has been done as fairly as possible, as long as we have many raiders to fewer raid spots, this will always be an issue in some form.
So, what can be done about this?
Ideally we would want all of those who have signed up to the raid, and are capable of raiding (people shouldn't really be bumped from trial to full raider unless they are of course) to be rewarded for being available.
Currently this is very much not the case. Only those in the raid are rewarded, and those sitting out get absolutely nothing (apart from possibly higher priority at being invited to the raid next week).
Take an example situation with the current loot system.
Shaman A (ShamA) and Shaman B (ShamB) both want a spot in the raid.
This week, ShamA is chosen, some bosses are killed, and ShamA wins a piece of loot.
The second week there are enough spots for both shaman, and a piece of loot drops which is useful for both.
Both have been available both weeks, and both are equally capable in the raid. ShamA has so far won one epic in raids, ShamB has won none. Under the current loot system both do a /roll and ShamA rolls higher. ShamA wins another piece.
This is the kind of situation in which the current loot system is unfair. If ShamB had been invited to the first raid instead of ShamA, it could have been him winning the extras. This is a combination of ShamB not being rewarded enough for being available to raid, and ShamA not dropping in priority having already won a piece of gear.
THUS! I propose we change the loot system to something which will address both of these issues AT THE SAME TIME!
Whilst doing my usual copious amounts of research on any subject which interests me, I came across a system which looks perfect for a guild such as ours.
EPGP
Whilst it would be nice if people read all of that article, I'm already creating a wall of text here, so I'll try and keep it short and give real world examples.
EPGP stands for "Effort Points, Gear Points" (Not to be confused with gear score).
The way the system works, at a basic level, is you are rewarded with Effort Points, EPs, for being available for raiding.
Gear is valued on a formula which takes into account the item level of the item, as well as it's slot type. So, a chestpiece is worth more than a wristpiece etc. This gives you the GP of items.
Using the EP and GP a priority is worked out. What this comes down to is those who have won pieces having a lower priority than those who haven't.
In the previous example, once ShamA won the piece of gear, he would become lower on the priorities. Thus in the second raid, ShamB would have priority on the loot.
EPGP also introduces % decay. What this means is that over time your points will drop. This isn't done in such a severe way that you'll have to attend or be available for every raid or else you won't have a chance - but it does stop those who are away from raiding for a long time from coming back and winning loot. It also encourages people to sign up regularly, which is only a good thing.
A common concern with loot systems is the points spiralling out of control, and causing a points inflation where more points are coming into the system than going out. % decay addresses this problem.
Another common concern is, "I'm not ready to raid yet and by the time I am everyone will have so many points I won't be able to catch up". With the EPGP system, and the way priority works, you'll only have to attend ~3 full week's worth of raids to catch up at any point.
I can see that all of this sounds like an administration nightmare, but there are addons to take care of all of this for you. No silly paperwork, all you have to do is clear the officer notes and set up the addon initially, and then just watch it happily do it's thing.
So, examples. For the sake of simplicity I'm going to do something similar to the WoWWiki examples, and assume every piece of gear is worth 100 GP, and the rate of decay is 10%. Furthermore 100 EP is awarded per raid attended/signed for.
Picking 3 TOTALLY RANDOM names; Woogle, Zhinrak, and Ránëwén.
In the highly likely event all 3 attend the same raid, this is how things could go.
Over 4 raids, Woogle attends 2 of them (raids 1 and 3), Zhinrak all 4, and Ránëwén all 4. (No one likes Woogle anyway).
For each table other than the first I've included the decayed values. So at initial setup, with initial values of EP and GP at 0, the table would look as follows:
1) During the first raid Woogle and Zhinrak both win a piece of gear. Note that when GP is 0 it is counted as 1 for the purposes of Priority (as anything /0 = infinity, and that's haxx). After the first raid the table now looks like:
You can see Ránëwén has a far higher priority. This will normalise once he wins a drop.
2) In the second raid Woogle is absent, but the other two attend. Zhinrak wins yet another piece of loot. At the end of the second raid, the table looks like:
Ránëwén still has a much higher priority, and Woogle and Zhinrak are now equal. Zhinrak winning a piece of gear, and Woogle missing the raid have both dropped their priorities from what they could have been.
3) In the third raid Woogle and Ránëwén attend. Zhinrak is available, but not chosen to go. Both Woogle and Ránëwén want a caster neck piece which drops, but Ránëwén gets priority on the roll and wins it. Therefore at the end of the third raid, the table looks as follows:
NOTE: Zhinrak still got EP as although he didn't raid, he was available to. Also note now everyone has won something the priority will no longer decay.
Ránëwén winning something has dropped his priority back to a normal level. He has won the same amount of loot as Woogle, but as he has attended more raids he is still a slightly higher priority should they both end up rolling on the same item again in the next raid. Zhinrak is lowest as he has won gear twice.
4) In the fourth raid Woogle is once again absent, whilst Zhinrak and Ránëwén both attend. Ránëwén wins another piece of gear. At the start of the fifth raid (end of the fourth) the table is now:
As Ránëwén has won two pieces of gear now, the same as Zhinrak, his priority has dropped lower still. Zhinrak's priority has now increased to the same as Woogle's again, as he didn't win anything this time.
Why then is Zhinrak is a higher priority than Ránëwén, despite them attending the same number of raids and both obtaining two pieces of gear? Well, this is due to the way the decay system works. As Ránëwén won his two pieces later than Zhinrak, they haven't had as much time to decay in value. This solves the issue of new players coming into a raid with a very high priority (as we saw in the first two diagrams) and winning successive pieces of loot over those who have been waiting possibly weeks for pieces. It serves to balance out the rate at which people win the gear overall.
In terms of someone with a ridiculous priority coming in and taking an item raiders have been waiting for weeks for, a minimum EP constraint can be introduced. This would mean new raiders would have to raid for a couple of weeks before being able to challenge those with higher EP, and thus make it fair on those who have been waiting and raiding patiently. With the way the Trial Raider rank works atm, and with them usually having 2-3 week's worth of raiding before promotion, this works out rather nicely, as Trial Raiders already have a lower priority than Raiders, and thus the minimum EP restriction would take place via our own rank rules.
I hope these tables are clear enough for people to understand, I must admit looking at the WoWWiki ones I had to read through 3 times before I was fully happy with how the decay was working etc. If things are unclear, or I've got numbers wrong somewhere, do tell me.
I want to make it clear that I'm suggesting this because it's a fairer system, and would help benefit the guild overall, with no raiders feeling quite as left out as they currently do. At the end of the day, all I want is a fair system which is of greater benefit to the guild. I feel this is it.
I really would like to hear people's opinions on this, and any issues which people can see with this system. Sorry it ended up being such a wall of text, but I wanted to make sure I clarified as much as possible in my initial post!
