New System - Q&A

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Yeah, it's that time again I get the feeling that my current system, whilst pretty capable, is starting to flag a little bit with some of these new games just come out. Most I'm not bothered about, but Call of Duty 4 is one I really want to enjoy to its full potential and so I've started thinking about components for my new system. Of course, there is the ulterior motive of going to i33 with a mind-bending setup, but that's only secondary

Currently, my setup is:

AMD Athlon X2 4800+ 2.4GHz Skt.939
GIGABYTE K8NXP-9 mobo (skt 939)
2GB (2x1GB) OCZ Platinum Edition PC3200 DDR RAM
Sapphire Radeon X1950XT 256mb gfx card
Thermaltake Purepower 560W PSU
120GB and 40GB Maxxtor HDDs
Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS soundcard

As it is its actually a fairly good system and I could offload it (for a decent price) to anyone that wants it, which would also help towards my new system. Either that or I could see if anyone wants any of the individual components (CPU, RAM and GFX card are all pretty strong) and just ditch the rest of the dross.

In the meantime, there are a few component related questions that I need your superior intellect to help me find the answers to.

1. Motherboard - I'm thinking about an Intel Q6600 (quad core, swish) CPU, which is socket 775, but I hear rumours on the wind that a new Intel socket format is coming out soon. Can anyone clarify this, and will it be a problem? I don't want to end up in the same upgrades situation again where I had to look very hard and pay a lot for a CPU of a dieing socket (939). Also, to ensure future upgradeablity, I'm guessing that PCi-E 2.0 would be a virtue.

2. CPU - As I said above, the Q6600 looks tasty, yet affordable. Though maybe some of you know something I don't - like whats the script with Yorkfields and Nehalems? And what about AMD, are their Phenom CPUs any good? Do they have an equivalent?

3. RAM - I'm looking for 4GB, but I'm not sure whether 1066MHz is worth it. HotStuff mentioned in another thread that the highest speeds tend to be unstable, so maybe a lower speed would be better?

4. Graphics card - There're a few routes I could take on this one. The first is to wait for the new nVidia 9-series card in February/March, the 9800GTX or GX2 probably, but then I'm hearing these stories that suggest they really aren't that much more powerful than 8800 Ultras.
Secondly, I could wait on ATi's new R680 series, but they might be a while off yet.
Thirdly, (and this looks very attractive to me) I could buy a pair of ATi HD3870s in CrossFire which is a very powerful setup for the same price as an 8800.
If there is one important no-compromise component, it is the graphics for me.

Anyway, I've been poking and philandering and nosing around and have come up with a few possibilities for some of the new components. Incidentally, I'd be building this one myself as helping my bro build his new machine was a learning experience, and I also realised that his is much more powerful than mine and yet cost only about 500 squids.

Financially, I've set an upper ceiling of about £1000, give or take 100, but obviously I'd like to save as much money as I can.

Concept:

Mobo: Nothing solid yet, but anything reliable with PCi-E 2.0, Crossfire/SLi (depensive on GFX cards) and decent memory bandwidth would do me. My bros is very swish, an ASUS M32N Sli-Deluxe or something, and he finds the WiFi net thing very useful.
CPU: Intel Q6600 quad core
RAM: 4GB Crucial Ballistix 800/1066 DDR2 RAM (I hear Crucial are good, and Corsair are bad)
Graphics: 2 x Radeon HD3870s in Crossfire setup. These look really nice, and scored decently in benchmarks too.

Just speculation at the moment as I don't want to rush into things like I always do, and I've got 2 months grace to see how things develop so I might as well start thinking now and then keep track on how things evolve from there.

 

[Traxata]

First off, steer clear of the AMD for now, INTEL have blown all their fish out of the water.. the only thing coming out would be the Penryn, You'll want to do some googling on the socket that'll take as I can't remember it off the top of my head

On the RAM front, 4gb is good yes, however unless you get either Windows XP 64bit, or Vista 64bit you're only going to be using at Most 3.5gb as 32bit systems seem to use ram in other places I didn't know they really had places but, oh well. The Corsair XMS2 PC6400 is perfectly adequate for most gaming rigs, I've got 4 1GB sticks of XMS2 PC 5400 in my machine

 

[[THN]Buffalo_Hunter]

The newer Intel chips use the 1333/1600 FSB, so a board with a 1066 FSB won't support the newer Penryn/Yorkfield CPUs. As for quad core, there's nothing yet that fully utilises all four cores (Crysis uses primarily one core with the other three running at around 25%). The dual core E6850 makes more sense at the moment with its higher clock speed.

As for using two GPUs - I feel it's a bit of a con. You pay twice as much yet you don't get twice the performance...a powerful single card makes more sense, but what do I know???


But, with a grand to spend, what about this?

 

[thatbloke]

But, with a grand to spend, what about this?

Heeey, that's SHINY

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

As for using two GPUs - I feel it's a bit of a con. You pay twice as much yet you don't get twice the performance...a powerful single card makes more sense, but what do I know???

Well, I investigated that a bit, too, and I found that whilst nVidia's SLi seems to lose a fair percentage of power, ATi Crossfire seems to scale very well in dual GPU setups. A single 8800 Ultra would cost you about £400 squid at the cheapest (according to Scan), but dual 3870s would set you back about £340 for a pair and yet they outperform an Ultra. Plus, they are PCi-E 2.0, even if they wouldn't take full advantage of that.

It's maybe worth waiting and seeing how well the new GPUs perform on release.

But, with a grand to spend, what about this?

Now that does look quite tempting, but I was always told that building your own was cheaper and allows you to support it better. Looks nice, though. Veeeeeery nice, I'll take it into consideration I will ask the younger brother and see what he thinks

 

[[THN]Buffalo_Hunter]

Some Crossfire results:

Bioshock, 1680x1050 16xAF
3870 62fps
Crossfire 74fps
8800GT 74fps
8800GT SLI 81fps

Bioshock 1920x1200 16xAF
3870 55fps
Crossfire 69fps
8800GT 69fps
8800GT SLI 69fps

Crysis 1280x1024 medium/high
3870 40fps
Crossfire 40fps
8800GT 43fps
8800GT SLI 48fps

CoH 1680x1050 16xAF Max quality
3870 35fps
Crossfire 53fps
8800GT 41fps
8800GT SLI 57fps

Lost Planet: Extreme Condition 1680x1050 16xAF
3870 22fps
Crossfire 42fps
8800GT 34fps
8800GT SLI 61fps

(Source data)

So both only show a 50% improvement in Crossfire/SLI at most, and in some cases no improvement at all. However, given that the 8800GT is only £20 more than the 3870, it looks to be the better of the two (and I'm not biased at all ).

As for self-build being cheaper, I don't think that's true anymore - pre-build benefits from components purchased at bulk prices (plus the warranty from the builder) while self-build doesn't incur the cost of building. Nowadays, the difference is likely to be a lot less than it used to be.

 

[elDiablo]

...Now that does look quite tempting, but I was always told that building your own was cheaper and allows you to support it better...

I too was always told this, and believed it to. Up to a few years ago (or even less maybe...) it was very true. Now, however, there are some very good deals around, and it is a lot easier. Support is given by the store you buy from, and you don't have to worry about hardware conflicts of any type. As for software support, I'd just wipe the OS they give you (to nuke third party software) and just install whatever OS you want on it, assuming you have previously bought an OS.

Still, it's personal preference

 

[Traxata]

Only problem with the 8800 GT's is the fact that their stupid fan design means they occasionally overheat, This maybe a couple of freak cards I've had but so far I don't think I'm ever going to touch a GT again, the GTS is a hell of alot better on the fan design and I've had no problems with the one I have, yet to see how the new version plays out

 

[[THN]Buffalo_Hunter]

I heard of people having problems with the factory overclocked cards, but mine never gets above 65°C (probably helped by the 120mm fan stuck right next to it). It's also very quiet (I've yet to hear the fan on the card actually speed up).

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Some Crossfire results:

Bioshock, 1680x1050 16xAF
3870 62fps

...


So both only show a 50% improvement in Crossfire/SLI at most, and in some cases no improvement at all. However, given that the 8800GT is only £20 more than the 3870, it looks to be the better of the two (and I'm not biased at all ).

That's obscure, because the three or so benchmarks I looked at yesterday, and indeed many of the forum discussions I read, all pointed towards HD3870CF being equal in strength to, or surpassing, SLi'ed 8800GTs. With AA enabled, the 8800GTs showed a bit of composure, but at higher resolutions the CF setup caked the 8800GTs. I'll look at my history when I get home and share them with you. Plus, I also read that once ATi release drivers for the 3870 out of beta stage, things will improve further.

There're too many contradictory results floating around; I'm certainly going to wait out for another month or two anyway before I start making concrete decisions.

 

[waterproofbob]

Right here is bob's opinion late in the day I know but deal with it I wasn't here.

Get a X48 and get 2 3870X2s, they are better than ultras at £270. Then get yourself a q6600 and some Geil ull DDR2 sticks and a Tuniq tower or thermalright ultra cooler for the CPU. I have OC'ed my q6600 to 3.6GHz prefectly stably without pushing RAM or CPU voltage on the wrng side of uncomfortable. I know as an Nvidia fan boy I'm supposed to shun all effort from ATI but I don't care the 3870 X2 are awesome.

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Hang on, two 3870X2s? Those are about 300 quid a pop, you know! I was thinking one 3870X2 or two 3870HDs, either that or wait and see how the new nVidia cards turn out. As an aside, I read today you can Crossfire a 3870X2 with a 3870HD for 'triple' (sorta) gfx power. Worth investigating?

Q6600 definitely looks the right way to go, with one of those Tuniq towers or Thermalright spiky things certainly. Fairly cheap, too.
RAM is a bit sticky for me, I dont understand the stuff. 2GB or 4GB? And is it worth spending tonnes of cashola on it?

Hopefully ill be able to start ordering the new machine when my next paycheck arrives (15th Feb), just to make sure I have a financial buffer

 

[waterproofbob]

hehehe the 2 X2s was a joke tbh, but yup you can xfire an X2 with a 3870, although the drivers for that are about 2 weeks off. I'd say go with 4Gb of
THAT


It is stunning RAM nice and cheap and is generally the dogs dangly bits.
Might be worth looking at a Wolfdale dual core as well. The quad is man sized and does OC like a beast. But the wolfdale e8400 is damn reasonable and word on the street is that you can happily stick them to 4GHz on air, although I doubt you're going to.

Also power supply wise I'd say
one of them
or if you really wanna future proof
one of them

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

Hokey cokey, after much careful consideration and mucho harassment of the bob, this is what I've come up with:

Mobo: MSI X48 Platinum
CPU: Intel Core2 Quad Q9450
Cooler: Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro
RAM: 4GB GeIL PC2-6400
GFX: Sapphire Radeon HD3870X2
HDD: 500GB Seagate Barracuda
PSU: Corsair TX750W
Case: Coolermaster Centurion 5 (same as bro, cheap but seems to be fairly effective)

which all comes to just snugly under a grand, which is pretty much my upper ceiling. Any thoughts? If anyone can refine it or get the price down (or put it up with something thats well worth it) without too much compromise I'm all ears.

 

[waterproofbob]

If you want the x48 then go for That one

I changed my mind on the Q9450 and I'd go for the P182 as the 3870X2 is a big card that puts out a lot of heat and I'd be concerned that the coolermaster may not be up to it. Also I love the P182 with an unusual passion the only better case in my eyes is the TJ07 and that is £220. Basically I did a DDR3 build and it wasn't going to happen under a grand. The one above gives you a bit of breathing room. If it were me I'd go for the X38 and maybe get the Q9450. Or if you really want the X48 then stick with the Q6600. But the build above will set you right for a while to come. If you'd like also at i33 I'll make you a stable OC profile that you don't have to use but can load at any point in the BIOS if you ever feel the need. The 3870X2 gets bottlenecked a little at the stock Q6600 speeds, so a Q9450 could be a plan.

If it were me building it now, I'd take the spec as it is above. But in a few weeks when the x48 finally appears I may change my mind.

 

[[THN]Buffalo_Hunter]

If you want your original choice of X48 motherboard, you'll need the more expensive DDR3 memory. Also, I'd think hard about a faster dual core CPU unless you intent running multiple applications. Even games that are supposed to be use more than two cores (Crysis for example) run primarily on one core and rarely use more than 25% of the other three - the E8500 runs at 3.16GHz and is cheaper.

I'd also invest in a case with better cooling - a side panel fan over the GPU is a good idea as the 3870X2 isn't going to get a bit on the warm side (the Antec P900 springs to mind....I wonder why....)

 

[waterproofbob]

I'd also invest in a case with better cooling - a side panel fan over the GPU is a good idea as the 3870X2 isn't going to get a bit on the warm sied (the Antec P900 springs to mind....I wonder why....)

P182 is fine on that front, I have a fan in the upper HDD bay that blows air straight across the X2. It gets a little toasty at full load but nothing to write home about. Also the p900 is possibly the worlds ugliest case. The cooling is a little better but I much prefer the look and the build quality of the P182.

There's as you say the option of going for a dual as well. I'd say go for the quad, as it's hard to see what will happen games wise in the next year. Also I love my quad so I guess I would say that.
It is entirely up to you. The price of the Q6600 is still making me say short term loss for long term gain. Not that is really is a loss. My Q6600 is sitting at 3.6GHz quite happily and it sort of destroys everything. If you do want to look at the wolfdales, then you best bet money wise is to go for the 3GHz E8400.

Personally I'd get the quad though.

 

[[THN]Buffalo_Hunter]

Also the p900 is possibly the worlds ugliest case. The cooling is a little better but I much prefer the look and the build quality of the P182.

Remind me never to make suggestions again ;-)

 

[Tetsuo_Shima]

I won't be, because the 900 case looks mint. Cool, more fans than Man U, got that same mesh panel my bros has, plenty of room and one glance at the toms hardware forum tells me that its probably the most recommended case out there. Looks arent important to me anyhow, and to be honest it doesnt look all that bad. And it's cheaper.

 

[waterproofbob]

Remind me never to make suggestions again.

Wasn't a dig at you, no need for that comment, I was stating my view on 2 cases I know a lot about. I've built into both and the P182 is better. The cooling in the P900 is better but that is because there are more fans and it is therefore much louder than the P182. The Split into sections of the P182 and the way the cabling is routed in the P182 is far superior. The build I did into the P900 took far longer to look good and that meant that although there is more cooling as it has all the fans in the world it wasn't as optimised as the P182, the fans on the sides of cases that blow air onto/away from GPU are in the wrong position as well as you want the air to flow. You are much better having just the air flow over the card. I added an extra 2 fans to the upper HDD bay of the P182 and it cools better than the P900 build. The separation in the P182 also allows you to keep your HDD well away from everything else and looks great.

It is of course entirely up to you but even with the extra fan in the upper HDD bay in the P182 it was considerably quieter than the similar P900 build.