I'm not sure what those people have to do with this discussion? Surely they didn't join a guild that they disagree with the very core of?
Raid signups - in game or via forum?
- Thread starter Xylak
- Start date
Zhinrak
In Cryo Sleep
I love how simple discussions on this forum almost always needlessly spiral into debates that are completely unnecessary.
Its a discussion about which tool to use. Either an in game tool tailor made with functionality to suit the needs of the people who play the game, or a slightly out dated similar tool that has a slight variation in functionality. Yet somehow this has spiraled (or is at least spiraling) into a pointless debate about the separations of the Haven as a WoW guild and THN as a community... i did not realize that calendars were such serious business.
Ignoring the quite obvious risk of me kicking this dust cloud into a shit storm of discussion I'm just gonna randomly throw in my own few comments.
No one is said anything about disagreeing with anything. I have no idea where this idea has come from. To be blunt, despite having technically been a part of the WoW guild for 4-5 years i have had very little/no interest in becoming a part of the wider THN community and still don't. This fact never stopped me from enjoying my time on WoW neither did it have an impact on how i played the game or interacted with guild members and THN members. Just because there might be a number of guild members who have joined the guild and do not want to become part of the wider THN community does not mean they should not be considered in the decisions of how the guild is run.
What Brad was trying to say is that, if you were to tell people to use the forum calendar and ignore the in game one, you are coercing them to use their forum accounts. Despite the connotations of the word coerce being usually negative, this is not a bad thing, this is just a fact. Encouraging people to use their forum accounts and interact with the wider THN community can be a very positive thing, just make sure to do it in the right way.
There are plenty of people like myself who have and who will join the haven as a wow guild, say hi on the forums and probably only ever log on the forums once every blue moon and most likely just stick to the wow section of the forums.
If the choice of which calendar sign up system to use is really such a drastic part of the interactions between the Haven WoW community and the THN wider community then there is something truly wrong here.
Ultimately this choice should be up to the Raid leader and what he feels is most efficient for him to use in organizing raids and strengthening the Haven Guild as a group. Focus on the guild issues and guild concerns first, rest of THN second.
Its a discussion about which tool to use. Either an in game tool tailor made with functionality to suit the needs of the people who play the game, or a slightly out dated similar tool that has a slight variation in functionality. Yet somehow this has spiraled (or is at least spiraling) into a pointless debate about the separations of the Haven as a WoW guild and THN as a community... i did not realize that calendars were such serious business.
Ignoring the quite obvious risk of me kicking this dust cloud into a shit storm of discussion I'm just gonna randomly throw in my own few comments.
No one is said anything about disagreeing with anything. I have no idea where this idea has come from. To be blunt, despite having technically been a part of the WoW guild for 4-5 years i have had very little/no interest in becoming a part of the wider THN community and still don't. This fact never stopped me from enjoying my time on WoW neither did it have an impact on how i played the game or interacted with guild members and THN members. Just because there might be a number of guild members who have joined the guild and do not want to become part of the wider THN community does not mean they should not be considered in the decisions of how the guild is run.
What Brad was trying to say is that, if you were to tell people to use the forum calendar and ignore the in game one, you are coercing them to use their forum accounts. Despite the connotations of the word coerce being usually negative, this is not a bad thing, this is just a fact. Encouraging people to use their forum accounts and interact with the wider THN community can be a very positive thing, just make sure to do it in the right way.
There are plenty of people like myself who have and who will join the haven as a wow guild, say hi on the forums and probably only ever log on the forums once every blue moon and most likely just stick to the wow section of the forums.
If the choice of which calendar sign up system to use is really such a drastic part of the interactions between the Haven WoW community and the THN wider community then there is something truly wrong here.
Ultimately this choice should be up to the Raid leader and what he feels is most efficient for him to use in organizing raids and strengthening the Haven Guild as a group. Focus on the guild issues and guild concerns first, rest of THN second.
Sasser
New Member
QFT.
Was just too lazy to post.
In my opinion there really is no need to read any impact on guild/community philosophy into this.I won't vote...
But I think ingame calendar is much better. You'll simply never will forget to sign up as long as you log in atleast once a week.
Then again I do kinda agree with Zooggy, by signing in on the forums people will be 'forced' to look at the forums. And so communication can be improved, next to that people may also look at other forums once in a while aswell improving the entire Haven community.
Ahh well, that's all beside the point.
INGAME CALENDAR FTW!!!1!1!!!11!!!
But I think ingame calendar is much better. You'll simply never will forget to sign up as long as you log in atleast once a week.
Then again I do kinda agree with Zooggy, by signing in on the forums people will be 'forced' to look at the forums. And so communication can be improved, next to that people may also look at other forums once in a while aswell improving the entire Haven community.
Ahh well, that's all beside the point.
INGAME CALENDAR FTW!!!1!1!!!11!!!
Pwnstar
Member
From a functional perspective i alwasy found the in-game calendar easy to use and easier to check sign-ups quickly (especially with GCalendar mods of which the names escape me), which is why I moved us towards it. I feel going back to the forum calendar would be a step backwards for the raiding side of the guild.
My example would be comparing how long it took to get a 10-man organised in Wrath compared to Cata. I can even remember starting early sometimes in the latter!
But then again that was probaly due to me just being totally fuckin' awesome. AMIRITE?!
My example would be comparing how long it took to get a 10-man organised in Wrath compared to Cata. I can even remember starting early sometimes in the latter!
But then again that was probaly due to me just being totally fuckin' awesome. AMIRITE?!
Zhar
New Member
It's had to admit, but no.
Hah! What I was trying to say is YES!
*high five eiffeltowér*
Windzarko
Well-Known Member
Raid leading like a boss?
Seriously, though; in-game calendar. I've not voted on the poll, not being a WoW player atm, but... yeah, using the forum system is a comparative step back. Woogle and Pirate have already said any of the points I was going to make, so I won't reiterate needlessly.
Hey,
So, I've been pondering for a few days on how (or even whether) to reply to some of the things that were said here.
Thing is, they all rotate around this bit:
It's actually not.
I was the one who asked Xylak to look into the possibility. If it were strictly a matter of tools, it wouldn't really make all that much sense for me to be pushing the discussion. I'd just as soon trust the raid leader I appointed to make that sort of operational decision.
No, I asked him to look into that because there's more at stake.
This would imply that moving to the in-game system was a step forward, but I strongly disagree. I disagreed at the time, too. It was certainly a step towards the convenience of the leadership, but the long-term identity and health of the guild were emphatically not taken into account.
"Why are you turning a simple discussion about a tool into a philosophical tirade?"
No. Why are you demeaning a discussion of principles by being dismissive about it?
Some people are of the opinion that we should take from THN the very least that we possibly can and leave it to each individual member to decide how much further they want to take part in it.
Me, I think we should use every bit of the THN infrastructure that we possibly can, and if something doesn't work like we want it to, push the admins and devs into tweaking it further.
The forum calendar doesn't hurt us. We used it to organize 25-man raids in TBC and early Wrath and it worked great. Sure, the in-game system can be a bit more convenient, but convenience isn't the end-all-be-all of things. If it were, people would prefer pre-packaged cardboard-tasting airplane food to home cooked meals.
To me, the in-game signup system is airplane food. It's more convenient, but it tastes like cardboard.
In any case, it's Xylak's decision which tool he uses to organize things. I'm sure he made this poll just so he could get a better feel for where the group stands on it. Everyone that knows me at all knows that I'll support his decision regardless of what is and regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
But ultimately, the bigger question stands: should simple day-to-day operational considerations inform our decisions, or would you guys prefer that the leadership have a long term vision and provide guidance and direction along those lines?
Cheers,
J.
So, I've been pondering for a few days on how (or even whether) to reply to some of the things that were said here.
Thing is, they all rotate around this bit:
It's actually not.
I was the one who asked Xylak to look into the possibility. If it were strictly a matter of tools, it wouldn't really make all that much sense for me to be pushing the discussion. I'd just as soon trust the raid leader I appointed to make that sort of operational decision.
No, I asked him to look into that because there's more at stake.
This would imply that moving to the in-game system was a step forward, but I strongly disagree. I disagreed at the time, too. It was certainly a step towards the convenience of the leadership, but the long-term identity and health of the guild were emphatically not taken into account.
"Why are you turning a simple discussion about a tool into a philosophical tirade?"
No. Why are you demeaning a discussion of principles by being dismissive about it?
Some people are of the opinion that we should take from THN the very least that we possibly can and leave it to each individual member to decide how much further they want to take part in it.
Me, I think we should use every bit of the THN infrastructure that we possibly can, and if something doesn't work like we want it to, push the admins and devs into tweaking it further.
The forum calendar doesn't hurt us. We used it to organize 25-man raids in TBC and early Wrath and it worked great. Sure, the in-game system can be a bit more convenient, but convenience isn't the end-all-be-all of things. If it were, people would prefer pre-packaged cardboard-tasting airplane food to home cooked meals.
To me, the in-game signup system is airplane food. It's more convenient, but it tastes like cardboard.
In any case, it's Xylak's decision which tool he uses to organize things. I'm sure he made this poll just so he could get a better feel for where the group stands on it. Everyone that knows me at all knows that I'll support his decision regardless of what is and regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
But ultimately, the bigger question stands: should simple day-to-day operational considerations inform our decisions, or would you guys prefer that the leadership have a long term vision and provide guidance and direction along those lines?
Cheers,
J.
Razaak
Well-Known Member
Jeez. Zooggy, you know I love you to bits, but it's a GAME (yeah, you lost it). And a discussion about what tools to use to support our gaming.
It's NOT a philosophical issue - and damn you for making me agree with Zhinrak
FWIW, if I was building the raids, I'd prefer the in-game calendar. Firstly, you don't have to fire up a separate application, you don't have to tab in and out of the game (yeah, you lost it again) with a pen and paper at hand - and having put raids together in WOTLK, that IS what it took if you were trying to do it right and fair.
It may have been a minor annoyance at worst, but why pick the annoyance when there's an alternative?
Three pages of waffle, and all it takes is a one-word answer to the original question - what do you prefer, in-game or forum? Hell, this would have been better as a poll with responses disabled.
/wrists
It's NOT a philosophical issue - and damn you for making me agree with Zhinrak
FWIW, if I was building the raids, I'd prefer the in-game calendar. Firstly, you don't have to fire up a separate application, you don't have to tab in and out of the game (yeah, you lost it again) with a pen and paper at hand - and having put raids together in WOTLK, that IS what it took if you were trying to do it right and fair.
It may have been a minor annoyance at worst, but why pick the annoyance when there's an alternative?
Three pages of waffle, and all it takes is a one-word answer to the original question - what do you prefer, in-game or forum? Hell, this would have been better as a poll with responses disabled.
/wrists
Burrick
Member
Xylak
New Member
Right, time for me to comment on this now as it's way out of what I was intending and become somewhat derailed from the original question.
In fact, I'm beginning to wish I'd just made a decision and not tried to be such a nice guy and ask everybody.
As always on forums, it's hard to have a proper discussion because people have a tendency to misinterpret what people say and/or the way it is said. Things often come out in a very blunt way which are reacted to with more bluntness and so animosity sets in.
Please, can we all keep civil and at least try to see what the other side's argument really contains?
Zooggy, to be honest I asked the question here because I wanted to know which signup method people preferred. Period.
I had already been thinking about reverting to the THN calendar but, being the non-dictator that I am, I thought I'd get a feel for which system guild members preferred. What way would cause most signups without having to constantly poke/ask people if they were available?
For me, the forum calendar would be my personal choice as it has a lot of benefits that I pointed out in the OP.
While alt-tabbing is an annoyance, so the in-game calendar isn't perfect to use because you can't see who is online and who is signed up at the same time. Which is also annoying.
I do agree with Zooggy (to some degree) that using the forum calendar would make us feel more a part of something bigger than a WoW guild. It would encourage the newer guild members to visit the site regularly and, if they wish, join in. Hopefully, they would get involved with these kind of discussions as the voting list shows the same old faces and none of the newer guys. This is no insult to you (as an "old face") but an observation to support an argument.
I say this personally and not as an "Officer", so please don't think it's something we've discussed behind your back or something. Some of what Zooggy says I do actually agree with - although with, perhaps, a little less lectern bashing.
The results, along with the arguments, have made it a little difficult for me now but if I'm to stick to my original reason for asking, the in-game calendar wins. Even discounting the non-active people (although, thank you for your input), there is overwhelming support for in-game over forum signups, This is the information I needed and I'l stick with it for now. It's possible that we could go to forum signups again, even if only as an experiment.
For now, I think perhaps we, as a WoW guild, need to think about how we interact with THN and how we, especially Veterans and Officers, can encourage more members to visit and partake in the forum.
(please note "ecourage" not "force", "coerce" or any other negative-sounding verb)
Thank you all for your input.
For The Haven.
For The Horde.
In fact, I'm beginning to wish I'd just made a decision and not tried to be such a nice guy and ask everybody.
As always on forums, it's hard to have a proper discussion because people have a tendency to misinterpret what people say and/or the way it is said. Things often come out in a very blunt way which are reacted to with more bluntness and so animosity sets in.
Please, can we all keep civil and at least try to see what the other side's argument really contains?
Zooggy, to be honest I asked the question here because I wanted to know which signup method people preferred. Period.
I had already been thinking about reverting to the THN calendar but, being the non-dictator that I am, I thought I'd get a feel for which system guild members preferred. What way would cause most signups without having to constantly poke/ask people if they were available?
For me, the forum calendar would be my personal choice as it has a lot of benefits that I pointed out in the OP.
While alt-tabbing is an annoyance, so the in-game calendar isn't perfect to use because you can't see who is online and who is signed up at the same time. Which is also annoying.
I do agree with Zooggy (to some degree) that using the forum calendar would make us feel more a part of something bigger than a WoW guild. It would encourage the newer guild members to visit the site regularly and, if they wish, join in. Hopefully, they would get involved with these kind of discussions as the voting list shows the same old faces and none of the newer guys. This is no insult to you (as an "old face") but an observation to support an argument.
I say this personally and not as an "Officer", so please don't think it's something we've discussed behind your back or something. Some of what Zooggy says I do actually agree with - although with, perhaps, a little less lectern bashing.
The results, along with the arguments, have made it a little difficult for me now but if I'm to stick to my original reason for asking, the in-game calendar wins. Even discounting the non-active people (although, thank you for your input), there is overwhelming support for in-game over forum signups, This is the information I needed and I'l stick with it for now. It's possible that we could go to forum signups again, even if only as an experiment.
For now, I think perhaps we, as a WoW guild, need to think about how we interact with THN and how we, especially Veterans and Officers, can encourage more members to visit and partake in the forum.
(please note "ecourage" not "force", "coerce" or any other negative-sounding verb)
Thank you all for your input.
For The Haven.
For The Horde.
Pwnstar
Member
I love how my deeds and sayings live on through you Raz.
Pwnstar
Member
There was a mod i used that showed exactly this and it made my life a lot easier. If you want I'll try and fish it out for you?
Xylak
New Member
Pwnstar
Member
Xylak
New Member
Hey,
Is this a mod that all raiders can take advantage of, or is it more for raid organizing and leading?
Cheers,
J.
Is this a mod that all raiders can take advantage of, or is it more for raid organizing and leading?
Cheers,
J.