Raiding 101: The word of Soundwave

[Xylak]

Just going to weigh in with my thoughts...

Until joined The Haven I honestly hadn't done too much in the way of raiding, a few runs in Karazan and some semi-regular Naxx runs with some folk from the Greywolf Tribe and some other random people (including some Havenites on occasion I think).

The past year has been awesome and I really got into the spirit of raiding without feeling the "pressure" of a hardcore raiding guild such as Aftermath - I was considering applying to them when Veygrix (a good RL friend who joined The Haven at the same time as me) joined as there are a couple of people there I used to raid with. However, I decided that The Haven had a more relaxed, casual feel that suited me better and felt (and still do!) that we have much more FUN in our raiding.

While I agree with the base sentiment that we should maybe be a bit more pushy on progressing through raids than we have been, I don't want us to lose sight of the fact that we are here to enjoy ourselves and each others company. This is what makes raiding fun.

With the increased number of raiders - returning players and new ones - we have the potential to run multiple (possible simultaneous) raids with the possibility of bringing in different people at different times due to the per-boss lockout now in place. With all the people we have, that are either ready now or will be soon, we must have a strong enough pool of people where we can make this work without getting too stressed about it.

The OP can be read in two way, with a serious "we are hardcore" voice or a more mellow "here's how we can make raiding work" voice. I prefer the latter and I hope that this is the case - although I'm not too sure Pirate does "mellow"

While serious discussion is all well and good, please let us not devolve into an "us and them" situation between raiders/community and a perceived A/B team where no-one is having fun, feels left out or is generally pissed off with the whole situation.

Remember, we DID have progression in WotLK and we had some real good fun doing it.

Peace and love, man, peace and love.

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

No, the raiding team is not fixed. Otherwise, I'd be pretty much screwed, coming from a two-week lag from having gotten the expansion for christmas. But, there is a bar. If, as a player, you're underperforming, you won't be on the team. Underperforming doesn't mean you're clocking in at 5% lower DPS than that other guy. It means either a significantly lower number, or, an inability to cope with the tactics or to not stand in the fire or whatnot.

What people need to understand is that not being quite up for the challenge is the one reason that will keep you out of the team. There won't be a different "whatever the reason".

Having been in a top 100 raiding guild i can tell you right now that this doesnt work, as many people are constantly worrying they will be cut, even though they can go an entire explansion without being so.

When you see someone falling behind or lets say "not being up for the challenge" everyong should support* them, and if officers want to cut someone always ask them if everything is ok IRL and offer them support, and ofcourse let them know they need to improve.

Having a team of raiders where anyone can be cut at anytime, well, you might as well disband now. But a team of people who get on well, and help out underperformers, and ofcourse good officers who let people know when they need to improve, etc can only end with success.

In one of the guilds i was in we had all 35 ppl on every raid, and the raid leader swapped people out between wipes, so everyone got to play, this was great because when you were swapped out, it didnt mean you were bad it meant someone else could play. I've also been in fixed "for a night" raid teams, not nearly as much fun.

Im not saying anything you've said above is wrong, just interpretting some of it to be pretty brutal, i have seen many raiders get cut and demoted right after raids and they said they had no warning, ive even heard adults cry in voip, being a raiding guild should be a good thing, and socials in these guilds almost always benefit over regular guilds so, go out there and kill bosses!


*I once found out that we had a raider using almost completely default ui, they had the mandator addons installed for checks, but didnt even use them, lol. I spent 3 hours with this person and sorted her UI so that it actually, worked, few days later, people stopped privately complaining about her(she dps, healers complained ).

Be supportive, dont be a dick!

 

[Peepee]

Firstly I feel that people have taken this topic off its inital point which was to purely just state where we were going to be raiding and what is expected from you.

The rest of this stuff is irrelevant and really it is. I also have been in a hardcore raiding guild and, trust me even with the changes to how we are going to raid we are still a very very long way away from hardcore.

The only thing I would like to see is if it comes to a raid night and we have enough people that we are trying to do 25 man raids as from what my friend has told me they are 10 times easier than 10 man.

Less QQ more pew pew tbh

Also just a quick note I do believe that Pirate did make it clear that if anyone needs help with their spec ect that they can just ask an officer or veteran for help they may sound it on ts but they arent all cunts

 

[Pwnstar]

...they may sound it on ts but they arent all cunts

Disclaimer: Huung definitely is.

 

[Zhinrak]

Basically what PeePee said.

I don't understand what changes are being made that have suddenly made everyone think that there is now this divide between community and raiders which there is not. This whole 'A Team' thing has happened before and yes it caused a lot of controversy back then too but it worked and was successful. It was the main reason during Ulduar that we actually got far enough to see yogg saron and that after that almost all of our Ulduar raids got that far.

For those less able, yes this does mean a slightly longer wait before they get into raids but as i said you WILL get a chance. Right now we barely have enough people to guarantee the progression raid as proven by last Friday where we could not raid, but as Sasser said even then we have cycled through quite a few people into the raid considering we have only had 2 weeks of it.

Once there are enough people around there will be more raids being run, either multiple on the same day, or across more days. In addition as far as i am aware 25 man raids have not been completely written off and if we get the people they will likely be attempted.

The over all idea behind this, which may have been lost, is to try and encourage the guild as a whole to improve. To be perfectly blunt, the quality of some players dropped during WoTLK. Players who i know during TBC were some of our top players, but due to complacency in WoTLK were no where near as good. It may come across a little brash but basically i know that a lot of players in this guild have the capacity to do better and by making this a necessity it will make for an overall better guild. During TBC people had to be good at raiding and we had to take it seriously like we are doing now. Because of that we ended up with not only some of the best raiding our guild has seen, but also that was when our community was at its best as it brought together everyone in our guild, those who wanted to raid seriously and the more 'casual players'.

*EDIT* also if at any point people begin feel like they are being unfairly left out of raiding, do feel free to contact one of the officers about it, preferably in private, and something should be done about it. At the very lest you will be given a reason as to why.

 

[Peepee]

Like I said Woogle less QQ more Pewpew xD

 

[Angelic]

While I agree with the turn Pwnstar is trying to make to shape the raiders up, I just have to add this:

[...]This whole 'A Team' thing has happened before and yes it caused a lot of controversy back then too but it worked and was successful. [...]

Define "worked" and "was successful". The A-team approach wasn't actually an A-team approach but rather "friends of influential people" approach and it was what had a number of players leave. I suggest you don't go down that road again. It may work in the way that "the guild" downs some bosses, but when the majority of people sit it out watching "the leet guys" have all the fun it's all gone sour.

 

[Huung]

While I agree with the turn Pwnstar is trying to make to shape the raiders up, I just have to add this:

Define "worked" and "was successful". The A-team approach wasn't actually an A-team approach but rather "friends of influential people" approach and it was what had a number of players leave. I suggest you don't go down that road again. It may work in the way that "the guild" downs some bosses, but when the majority of people sit it out watching "the leet guys" have all the fun it's all gone sour.

I feel this was largely due to the successful people being the ones promoted to positions of power (like T-Bone, Sabot, etc) and them then befriending those people who they felt were on a level of skill similar to themselves. Thus the A-team was a team of "friends of influential people" but only because those influential people had made friends with those they considered "worthy". Still elitist, I don't disagree with that, but at least it has some founding.

As Cata has changed mechanics of a lot of our classes, and we're still seeing problems in our classes being ironed out (caster mainhand for enh shammy lolz) we're bound to find people's performances changing over the next month or two, even through no fault of their own. It's not just about the numbers people are pulling anymore. With healing being more mana tight than ever, not standing in the fire has become the most important aspect. Raid awareness is key now, just hitting high numbers won't be good enough, at least not until we totally outgear content by two tiers.

The raiding team will have a core set to it atm, but only because of a lack of choice. The last two weeks we've had a max of two tanks sign up at any one time, and a max of 4 healers when we need 3. Of course this means some people will go when others won't - as we need to spread the buffs around and make sure we have the correct classes. We literally have a handful of tanks and healers geared and skilled (gear being far more important to the tanks and healers than the DPS at this stage) and so you will see familiar names in every raid until others have done their heroics and got their rep/BoE 346/359 bits.

Personally I want to DPS, but I've geared up my main spec as resto, and it shall stay that way until at least T12. This is because there are 1/2 spaces for melee DPS each week, but 3 spaces for healers, AND we're low on healer numbers atm. I'm not saying people should change their mains just to get in the raids, but bear in mind that being a healer or tank will up your chances of getting into raids significantly.

I can only hope people give these plans enough time to come to fruition, and don't judge them before they see them in action. There are more than enough skilled players in this guild to choose from, and lately I've been seeing a few who I doubted during WotLK performing exemplary in heroics, so I for one definitely won't be judging performance and capability based on Wrath.

P.S. In spite of what Pirate has said, yes, I'm pretty much a cunt, but I'm a cunt who <3s maths super hard. If you ever want to talk about gearing (be it stat weightings/where to get pieces/what to reforge to what/ etc) then let me know. I can simplify any maths you want simplified, and if people are willing to listen and learn, I'll have all the time in the world for you. Really, all you have to do is ask. If you're trying, and still being shit, I'll love you for the fact you're trying.

 

[Peepee]

Angelic dude tbh im just wondering why your even worried I see you post on the forums and I appreciate you a THNer but your not in the guild so just wondered why are you piping up?

 

[Zhinrak]

While I agree with the turn Pwnstar is trying to make to shape the raiders up, I just have to add this:

Define "worked" and "was successful". The A-team approach wasn't actually an A-team approach but rather "friends of influential people" approach and it was what had a number of players leave. I suggest you don't go down that road again. It may work in the way that "the guild" downs some bosses, but when the majority of people sit it out watching "the leet guys" have all the fun it's all gone sour.

Unfortunately i can see how when we make our progression groups that it can look "elitist", but the simple and cold hard truth of the fact is that all the really good players in our guild are also really good friends with each other and work damn well as a team hence they make the best progression group.

The second you stop taking your best possible people to a progression group for what ever reason, it really makes the idea of a progression group invalid.

Our 'A-teams' as you like to call them worked because those groups succeeded and progressed rapidly, they then benefited the entire guild because members from that group then helped our regular raid groups achieve the same level of progression through sharing their experiences and knowledge of the fights. This is what will be happening in this expansion, we aim to clear as much of the content as we can, learn the fights as fast as possible and then with non progression raids we can bring everyone who didn't get to raid in and they can learn the fights and succeed, benefiting from the experiences of those who have completed them.

Most the people who left the last time this happened were those who, like yourself quite wrongly accused us of being "elitist pricks" and did not stick around long enough to see how it benefited the guild as a whole.

To be blunt though, i do not appreciate this accusation that we are making these changes to be more elitist and only raid with our friends, and whether or not its directed at myself, sabot or any of the other officers in this guild i do find it rather offensive. It suggests that those of us running the raids dislike the people within this guild and do not want to raid with them which is not the case. I personally hope we can aim for 25 man raids some time in the next few months so we don't have to be so selective of our groups and avoid this apparent 'Elitism'.

There have only been a VERY few cases where one player was chosen over another purely because of their friendship status and not because they were a better player and i can tell you now those incidents are usually called up on and dealt with. If players begin to feel that they are missing out on spots due to 'Elitism' then they are welcome to discuss it with the officers (preferably in private) and we will try to alleviate the problem.

 

[Pwnstar]

Just to clarify, i can't choose friends over other people. I hate you all.

 

[Zooggy]

Hey,

The A-team approach wasn't actually an A-team approach but rather "friends of influential people" approach

I would like everyone to understand that this is a very real concern, but it's much, much more a matter of (mis)perception than of actual reality. I would like to debunk this using myself as an example.

The A-Team concept was first used successfully when we were running Zul'Aman back in TBC. Back then, I was already very much a part of the guild's inner core. At the time, the embryo of the concept that is today's Vetean Corps already existed, under the form of the Haven Elite rank, and I was very solidly a part of that. However, I got into TBC several months after it came out, and so I simply was not geared for it.

With time, I caught up and eventually made it onto the ZA team. I'm rather proud to have been in on the guild's first downing of Jen'Alai.

By the same token, there were people who were in on the ZA team that were not in the inner core, and in fact, eventually went on to leave the guild in a haze of good-riddance-ness. The names Thygola and Snitz come to mind.* Thing is, even though the friendship and influence were not there, the performance was. They were not liked. But, they were needed.

Now, these are extreme cases, but they do illustrate the point. The A-Team is, always has been, and as long as I have a say, always will be, about performance, not politics.

In re-reading my words, I'm pretty sure I cleared things up. I'm also pretty sure a few of you won't belive me or will continue to feel left out. There's not much I can do about that, other than to repeat what's already been said. If you ever feel the raid leadership isn't doing you justice, speak up! Send us a forum PM. You have my personal promise that your case will be looked at and that your situation will be either reviewed or explained to you.

Just to clarify, i can't choose friends over other people. I hate you all.

Bah. You love me and you know it.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Aliella]

I think I miss the time Sasser was raid leader already.

 

[Zhinrak]

I think I miss the time Sasser was raid leader already.

That is a bit unfair to say, were only just coming into our 3rd week of raiding and of the 2 weeks we've been raiding so far Sabot was only there for the first week.

Re-reading the initial post by soundwave (which i have re-read hundreds of times since this thread derailed) i personally still struggle to see where all this drama is coming from. Its mostly people over exaggerating over what are ultimately small and mostly insignificant changes to the way we are dealing with progression raids (and only progression raids), to make them more about progression and actually bring definition to them.

As Zooggy said, these changes are all about performance and not about 'guild politics'

 

[Aliella]

It's sort of the last few lines of his post that sort of rubs me in a wrong way.

 

[Xylak]

Also to weigh in on the "A-Team" comments from Angelic.

I joined The Haven about a year ago and a short while later applied to be a Raider. After a few runs as "Trial" I was elevated to "Raider" status but was left out of raids on occasion. Yes it was disappointing (can't deny that) but I understood the basic reasoning behind it - I was still an unknown quantity or there were other people who needed to be assessed or needed gear.

After a while I proved myself capable by listening to and understanding tactics, not standing in the fire and doing some acceptable DPS. I then became part of the "A"/progression team and I think I was there on quite a few of the first kills in ICC. This was not because I'm a friend of anyone in a high position but because I took time to look at what I could do to improve my performance, make the necessary changes and prove that I could be a worthy member of a progressive raid team.

I believe that the main reason why it seemed the same people were often picked for "progression" raiding is that each person had the personal skills to fulfil their role fully and provide all that was required for the benefit of the raid group as a whole. Once a group like that becomes established, it's only natural that each person becomes more aware of what the others in the group are capable of both in their personal skills and the abilities of their character. This makes handing new situations (progression fights) a lot easier than with a constantly changing group.

To be honest, my comparative DPS has suffered considerably since Cataclysm (no-one likes destructolocks, not even Blizzard!) and I am working on what I am doing wrong / gear / stats to fix this. If I CAN'T resolve this issue, then I fully expect not to be included in future progression raids as someone else with better DPS and similar all-round raid skills will be chosen in place of me no matter what my personal relationship is with the raid leader. This won't mean I won't go raiding, it just won't be as soon as I would like.

In ANY guild there will always be people who are better than others - if you aren't one of the "better" ones and want to be, there are plenty of resources out on the web where you can study your class to see what you need to do to improve. Outside of gear/stats it's down to your own personal ability to learn/react/adapt/improvise in any situation that may arise.

I can see no reason why, if we get enough people with the skills, we cannot run two simultaneous 10-man "progression" raids and/or 25 man raids. It's really down to YOU as an individual to develop the necessary skills to do this.

And, as I am fond of saying, we might not be the #1 raid guild and others may get the big bosses down before us but I bet we have more fun than most - that's the most important thing for me and why I have stayed a member of The Haven.


/tl;dnr version... If you're not good enough, do better! Smile.

 

[Pwnstar]

I think I miss the time Sasser was raid leader already.

Ace :/

 

[Peepee]

poor pirate need a hug?

 

[Xylak]

Ace :/

What did you expect after

Just to clarify, i can't choose friends over other people. I hate you all.

I hate you too Pirate.

/bighugs.jpg
//winkyface

 

[Xylak]

I think I miss the time Sasser was raid leader already.