Stand up Comedy and "causing offense"

[thatbloke]

I was linked to this article just now and to be quite frank I have to say I agree with every word of it.

What do you think about it?

I'll write my more in-depth thoughts on it a little later when I've had more time to think on it

 

[Xylak]

He is Doug Stanhope. And that's why he drinks.

I shall possibly respond better and more coherently when I am a little less drunk.

In the meantime I shall sum up what I may very well expound on later as "mostly yeah" but with some "you've missed the point" bits thrown in.
You can play "Guess Which Bits" if you like.
I don't mind.
I'm going to bed.

 

[waterproofbob]

This sums up my feelings on the matter nicely. The specific bit starts at 3.25.
However I strongly recommend watching the whole thing.

 

[Ghostwolf67]

Same here bloke. The comedian writes the truth.

The old adage 'you cant please everyone' sticks in my mind at first. Some things some people just wont find funny.

Second thing that springs to mind is 'Who the hell is anyone to try and dictate whats funny and whats not?" Whether its through life experience or beliefs or just a different way of thinking some jokes just dont hit the mark. At that point you dont laugh beacuse at the end of the day thats why you go see a comedian, to laugh. And if he doesnt succeed at tickling your funny bone with that close cutting remark then your well within your right to frown.

Believing that after a joke you thinks in bad taste it is now your sole duty to stand up or write in and complain 'thats not funny i was deeply offended." and battle whomever regardless of whether the other 800 people in the theatre laughed, or the other thousands of viewers were in histerics, is honestly giving yourself credit that just isnt there. Nope its now all down to you to point the finger at where the comedian crossed the line irregardless of however many hundreds of people wont think he came even close to it.

What you are saying right then and there is "When i turn on the TV or go to see a comedian I expect to like everything I see all the time ever. If I dont then theres something very wrong with the world and I must change it!" which if you happened to be paying attenton to the world up til that point you'll know couldnt be further from the actual truth. As the column says the world is a terrible place even though our pampered western lifestyles may sometimes let us forget that. The misguided idea that the world should be the way 'you' want it all the time is as fake as everytime Frankie Boyle has ever said the words 'i'm sorry'.

The other adage that springs to mind is 'Ignorance is bliss'. The world is a big place. And funny enough theres lots of different TV channels to chose from nowadays. If you dont like a show dont watch it. If enough people dont watch it the TV network will cancel it anyway. If you dont think your sense of humour is in tune enough with a comedian then dont go. There are infact a million other things you could do on a friday night.

Complaining to try an de-rail or destroy a comedian is not only hurting the comedian himself but also everyone else who enjoys his humour. If you dont like the joke thats fine. Go weave baskets or something but for gods sake do it quietly.

 

[Ronin Storm]

I find I don't entirely agree with the author, though I think he is swinging his point to counterbalance the previously publicised offence.

My disagreement is in this:

You have a responsibility for your words and actions. That you didn't intend for them to be offensive, or that you believed that most people in your presence would find it funny doesn't make you any less responsible. Disavowing responsibility on grounds of "it's supposed to be funny, can't you take a joke?" is broadly the same grounds on which prejudice and discrimination sit.

Thing is, this also works the other way around. You have a responsibility to those around you and selfishly decrying a live act in the middle of the act denies people who were finding it funny the entertainment they desired. It's called heckling and it usually implies you're being a cock. If you don't like it, you can always just walk out. If you thought it was offensive, you can write a review about it, or tweet about how awful you thought it was. Heckling is meant to be disruptive because you can't think of anything else worthwhile to do. Just stop being a cock.

So I very much fall between the camps on this one. On one hand, if you make offensive humour then expect backlash. On the other hand, if you heckle someone's live entertainment, expect to be thrown out without a refund. Both seem reasonable to me.

 

[Kasatka]

Ultimately, comedians AIM to offend sometimes, so if you get offended and run off to tell everyone about it, you have only succeeded in publicising the comedian and showing a limited sense of humour.

If a comedian were to removed content that might offend someone, there'd be nothing left. Conversely if they were to focus on content that will offend, they'd have a plethora of content. I'll refer to Jason Rouse on this front.

Yes Ronin, people are responsible for their words and actions, but they are not responsible for other peoples reactions to them. For example, if i were to publicly denounce a racial group, i would accept that my words would mark me out as a racist. I am not however responsible for people from that racial group getting upset with me, as that is their choice to get upset, just as it was mine to speak in the first place. If however i assaulted a member of the group, then yes, i am perfectly accepting of the repercussions.

I think if people just grew tougher skin and accepted that words mean almost nothing, but actions are still important and are what people should be judged on.

 

[Ronin Storm]

Words are actions. They have impact. They cause effects.

Still, I think we're roughly in the same space here with one specific difference: actions have consequences, whatever your actions may be. To think that people should be "let off" consequences, regardless of their intent to humour or offend, would be to ignore a thing that'll happen anyway. The thing there, I guess, is the difference between individuals' choice (to see a comedian, or not) and a "community" censuring (preventing a comedian entertaining because he offends a few people). The former is paramount where the latter is open to endless debate, as it should be.

 

[Ashya]

Saying "I went to this stand-up comedian and he said something that offended me." to me is the same as saying "I went to this pie-fight and I got hit with custard." or "I went to this swimming-pool and got wet."

If it is a complaint, I am going to point at you and laugh. Then call over other people and point at you and laugh again. The whole premise of free will and willingly going somewhere where you well and fully know something you don't like to happen to you can (and most often will) happen to you seems to be foreign to you. My advice; Stay in bed. And stop using my air.

 

[Velaphor]

I don't really agree with much of what he said tbh, i don't like comedians who's only way of making an audience laugh is through shock laughs. That's the number one reason why i'm not fond of Fanky Boyle, don't get me wrong im a lover of comedy and i've seen many different comedians and acts that i have found funny and not funny; sometimes i'll sit through a long patch of a stand up without laughing then spend the rest of the time pissing myself.
However, with Fanky Boyle he'll get one or two that i found funny then the rest of his jokes are just slander, i don't mind people making fun of me, people who feel they are better then others just because of stature or some idiot who did something stupid or even if some one has become disabled through a stupid means but i don't like it when some one makes fun of a those who can't help their disability it's not about offending people, I do that all the time shit happen, its more about have the common sense and decency not to go there, there is no law of free speech but does that mean what the KKK do is funny? and that they could call them selves a stand up and that people are just being overly offended, no people think they are c***s and constantly complain about them and right they are for it. If it's one thing that English people pride them selves on is our manners all across the world we are know as overly polite.

One of my favourite comedians of all time his Billy Bailey he gets an audience wetting them selves through out the show and never offends people just to make a joke, in my view if your a good comedian you shouldn't have to stoop to that level in order to get a laugh, if Fanky Boyle wasn't a famous comedian and was a random person then the world would hate him for being such an intolerant cock. Just because you have been give the title comedian doesn't mean that every time you offend you fall back on your safety net say "I'm a comedian some one laughed at that joke your just being overly sensitive", i know serial killers who laughed them selves silly while confessing how they murdered a bunch of people.

Humour is subjective and changes from person to person i know that but when did being a bully or offending those who can't defend themselves become a common place and accepted as some thing that just happens and people deal with it.
At the end of the day that woman shouldn't have been at a Fanky Boyle stand up, if you have child with Downs or are black the you should know better then go to a Scottish comedian because at some point they are gonna to say something that's offensive and she did blow it out of proportion, but im not a mother and i don't have a child who suffers from downs so i have no idea how she feels. Moral of the story is research your comedians first so you know what your in for, if you don't want to be at the risk of being offended then go to a comedian who doesn't tell those types of jokes, simples.

Just re-read this before putting this up and i sounds like a right sour melon, i was tempted to throw some fat jokes in just to brighten it up .

 

[comrade_phil]

Generally find myself agreeing with Ronin with his comment about inevitable backlash if something is deemed offensive rather than funny, but equally if you spoil someone else's entertainment the backlash will 'rightly' be directed at you.

In terms of the actual article though I found it to be quite a long-winded way of ending up at the final paragraph.

My understanding of it was that the author is arguing for comedians to push boundaries, rather than stick with "safe" or "boring" comedy. He seems to express a dislike for the media in how they report it when these boundaries are pushed "too far", but more as a point in things stopping boundaries being pushed.

Not sure there is any outright support for the specific manner in which one should go about pushing boundaries, just seems to rant about censorship. Given my taste in humour, I would probably find myself agreeing with the author that excessive censorship will lead to a dumbing down of comedy. I don't think the article actually says that we shouldn't be offended by a particular form of comedy. As such can't really see the purpose of debating whether Frankie Boyle is funny. Just my opinion though

 

[Dr Drae]

My first thoughts on the topic are that if you choose to go and see the comedian, you should A) know what to expect in terms of offensiveness and B) not expect to laugh at every joke they make.

There's been a lot of Frankie Boyle criticism thrown around in the media, with his comments on disability, but I think it's selfish and ignorant to go to the media just because of a joke that makes the audience laugh affects you in a negative way. I imagine the only reason she complained is because she or somebody close to her has disabled children.

Yet she wasn't complaining when offensive comments were made about another stereotype? Because that was funny to her. It's incredibly hypocritical. If the comedian had directly turned to her and said "Your kids are.." Then yeah, I can understand, but that didn't happen. He didn't set out to offend her directly.

I think the large trend of sueing anybody who says anything remotely outside of 'normal' conversation is just getting ridiculous. The whole idea of free speech is being destroyed because people are becoming too scared to speak freely.

 

[Ronin Storm]

I think the large trend of sueing anybody who says anything remotely outside of 'normal' conversation is just getting ridiculous.

I think we'd find a general consensus in that overarching thought. There are things to be taken care of between people. We don't need lawmakers, politicians and media getting involved in it all (except, apparently, they want to be involved it in all).

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

Yet she wasn't complaining when offensive comments were made about another stereotype? Because that was funny to her. It's incredibly hypocritical. If the comedian had directly turned to her and said "Your kids are.." Then yeah, I can understand, but that didn't happen. He didn't set out to offend her directly.

So you're saying that if one laughs at something which any other person finds offensive, you give up the right to be offended if someone finds what you find offensive to be humorous?

 

[waterproofbob]

So you're saying that if one laughs at something which any other person finds offensive, you give up the right to be offended if someone finds what you find offensive to be humorous?

No you are perfectly within your rights to be offended. You are also within your rights to pipe down and keep it to yourself, or if you feel that strongly about it get up and leave the show.

 

[thatbloke]

The point here is not that Comedy should not cause offence to anyone, but about the massive furore that seems to occur when someone does seem to be offended.

My issue is that a number of comedians who do like to be "on the edge" of what is considered as "decent" do sometimes cross some invisible line. This line seems to be moved into different places to suit some flavour of the month person that is the latest person to have been offended by some particular comment.

You then have this large movement of people that suddenly decry the "offensive" comedian as some kind of racist/bigot/whatever just because they are also offended. That also is fine. The problem is then when they then try to somehow censor/limit this person and/or that person's works.

Being offended is a VERY subjective matter - I'll be honest, very little offends me personally. However if someone else doesn't like a joke about a disabled kid, then fine. Just because THEY are offended, however, it does not and should not mean that I cannot now see/watch/whatever this person's work.

 

[Ronin Storm]

Because lyrics make everything better (no really)...

You find me offensive? I find you offensive
For finding me offensive

The point there is that actions have reactions, which are actions in themselves and have counter-reactions. It's all connected and cyclical and the only thing you can do is take responsibility for your own actions and reactions. Want to be offended at a comedian? Sure. In his show? Sure. Want me to like the comedian? Or you? Sorry, you don't get that choice. That's mine to make and have and hold.

That's the peversity in all this. It's some guy on his box having his say. He's a guy with a name that the media know so they're okay broadcasting what he has to say 'cause it helps them sell more news. Equally, controversy woman referred to in the article linked in the OP sells news because mobs like to see blood in the arena. In a way, it's all good in that it's right that they should be able to have their say. Conversely, I don't have to like it, or put up with it. I dislike the author's stance and I dislike the woman's actions. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with either and that's cool too.

I guess that's the thing: do I have a reasonable opt out (where I'm not just hiding in a hole while something actually terrible is happening)? Yup. Surely, in that case, all's good?

 

[Ronin Storm]

Just because THEY are offended, however, it does not and should not mean that I cannot now see/watch/whatever this person's work.

Indeed. It's only natural that you'll like some things that I don't so much like. Maybe you like raw onions, which I really don't. Doesn't mean that raw onions should be banned. However, if I don't like them sufficiently it would be reasonable for me to ask you to eat them elsewhere and if you wanted to get along with me you'd entertain that request seriously. Or accept that I'd simply opt to be not present when raw onion eating was happening. Either's good given the appropriate discussion and agreement.

 

[Dr Drae]

So you're saying that if one laughs at something which any other person finds offensive, you give up the right to be offended if someone finds what you find offensive to be humorous?

Well, yes. At least, in a context such as this. It is just plain hypocritical, and disrespectful to the people around you.

 

[Tempscire]

 

[Dr Drae]

http://www.cracked.com/article_19036_too-stupid-satire-how-media-branded-me-as-racist.html

Just found this on Cracked. Admittedly, I haven't watched the video, but thought it very relevant. :3