TBH WoW is hard...

Pwnstar

Member
GCD Usage and not thinking with your fingers
We don't think so. It might be fun when you're looking at a target dummy, but then in an actual encounter with other players, you might find yourself sitting there looking at those two buttons without realizing that everyone else in the group is dead. Because you have such little time to look at anything besides those buttons, you aren't really playing as a group. You're just focused -- solely -- on maximizing your own rotation.

We had a lot of complaints in LK that the complexity of managing a class rotation was at odds with the complexity we also add to the boss encounters. If anything we want to buy more space for the boss encounters, because those are at least varied, rather than simplify those while complexifying your rotation, which just makes every encounter feel the same. At the very least, we want to slow the game down a little so that you have more opportunity to make decisions with your head instead of every wipe being a mistake of the fingers.

This is a subjective call, and we don't expect everyone to agree with it, but that's where we're coming from.

I for one, wept.
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
Sounds good, I hate the spammy nature of DPS classes in wow. And I hate that missing a key by 0.2 seconds a few times means you are "lowering the raids dps!" and the only way to be "the best" is to have the least lag and hit the keys at the precise right time (the millisecond GCD is up). It really is more whack-a-mole than skill.

I prefer EQ2, you can queue a spell up behind one that is casting so no concerns over GCD and you actually get watch and immerse yourself in combat - as opposed to watching god damn spell progress bars so you know when to hit the next key.
 

Pwnstar

Member
...I hate that missing a key by 0.2 seconds a few times means you are "lowering the raids dps!" and the only way to be "the best" is to have the least lag and hit the keys at the precise right time (the millisecond GCD is up)...
If you do anything any time other than the optimal it will lower efficiency (DPS in this case), it's how maths works.

...It really is more whack-a-mole than skill...
Being fantastic at whack-a-mole is a skill.

...I prefer EQ2, you can queue a spell up behind one that is casting so no concerns over GCD and you actually get watch and immerse yourself in combat - as opposed to watching god damn spell progress bars so you know when to hit the next key.
So less to pay attention to making it easier to be "competetive" DPS?

The reason they are doing this and slowing us down is because the clickers and carebears complained that they cant keep up with those of us who mananged to learn our class well enough to have it become second nature.

If classes were actually rotation based muscle memory and waiting for GCD's would come into play. But since WoTLK everything became goddamn priority based (Some more so than others) and it is reaction based as to what buffs/debuffs are up and when you can use spell/action X/Y/Z. So all this will do is slow the game down, yay i can't wait to get even more auto-attacking done on the rogue, it's not like i have enough of that anyway...

tl;dr - Stop making the game easier it's already a fucking cakewalk.
 

Chuchurocket

In Cryo Sleep
Blood DK dps always made me laugh, you could bind the entire rotation into one macro and spam that mofo for tasty dps. Its sad that people want to be able to play the game optimally by clicking (this wont be a rag on clickers, honest) when blizzard have given bindings and macro abilities that help you increase your dups.

Next thing theyll make clicking viable in pvp :P
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
tl;dr - Stop making the game easier it's already a fucking cakewalk.

I don't know if you meant that as a direct insult, but FYI, I've been playing longer than most, since beta actually. I'm also from the true hardcore mmo's, everquest, daoc et al.

I was frequently the top DPS of 40 players as a mage, when the game really was HARD and you had to manage aggro by instinct alone.

Even back then the game mechanics were flawed, and relied on pinpoint key presses in a sequence a trained monkey could adapt to, rather than anything using any form of intelligence. Two or three spells on a rotation is BORING. It's not fun to repeat the same thing over and over and over which let's face it, is ultimately what a rotation IS.

How many action games - be they FPS or melee, do you know, where you have to rotate a series of commands to be any good? And yet they're much more interactive and much more fun than any WoW raid. And they require more skill, and reflexes, and thinking on your feet.

Honestly the only unexpected/exciting challenge I ever had in the history of WoW was an onyxia raid, where I was the victim of a random aggro bug and had her coming striaght for me, and thus half the raid, as soon as she landed. I reacted quickly and blinked to the front, i.e. the tanks. Raid saved.

Even tanking is dull and monotomous. I haven't played bemused enough to rank as the guild's greatest, but to be competent once again it seems hit the right keys in the right sequence over and over AND OVER. I am sorry but I vehemently disagree with you if you think this is skill. The only skill required here is the test of your attention span.

I do enjoy the encounters where you actually have to move and do stuff other than DPS/tank/heal. Move, physically dodge things, that sort of thing. They need to make more like that, more about true tests of skill, and LESS about button mashing. If that's what they are doing, great. It might actually end up being harder if the fight takes longer and you actually have to watch things on your screen instead of spell bars, you know?
 

Pwnstar

Member
I don't know if you meant that as a direct insult...
I didn't i was ragging on the game being too easy, which you helpfully reinforced below.

...a trained monkey could adapt to, rather than anything using any form of intelligence...

How many action games - be they FPS or melee, do you know, where you have to rotate a series of commands to be any good? And yet they're much more interactive and much more fun than any WoW raid. And they require more skill, and reflexes, and thinking on your feet.

Honestly the only unexpected/exciting challenge I ever had in the history of WoW was an onyxia raid...

...to be competent once again it seems hit the right keys in the right sequence over and over AND OVER...

And FYI i have played since the start too, not Beta. But still early doors. Back when you had to use gear from Maraudon to get the +nature res for Fangkriss. BAck when th game had some real challenges.
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
Yep it is too easy - button mashing isn't a skill. So are we in agreeance? Great!

So let's see what they mean by "slowing the game down".

If it means I can take a breather from button mashing to actually lift my eyes from my spell bar and have time to dodge the giant asteroid that just got launched in my direction, or jump over rabid squirrels or /wink at irate nymphs, great!

If it means same old same old, but I can press the buttons slower. then yeah.. snoozefest.

Also, speaking of resist based fights (never a good game design choice imo) to do Ragnaros you had to get fire res gear, which didn't exist apart from a couple of dropped (rare) rings, some sub-level gear you had to keep hold of, the onyxia cloak you had to do a whole questline and a 40 man raid for (once PER PLAYER!), and two items from crafting!
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hola!
Sounds good, I hate the spammy nature of DPS classes in wow.
Paying attention is good. And so is watching Omen :p (Which some of you know is what I have been scolding people for not doing every now and again :p )
And I hate that missing a key by 0.2 seconds a few times means you are "lowering the raids dps!" and the only way to be "the best" is to have the least lag and hit the keys at the precise right time (the millisecond GCD is up). It really is more whack-a-mole than skill.
It is still managable. CPU lag/GPU lag/latency can be an issue. But found that it is managable. Lich King fight: Near 1K latency and always suffer from CPU lag every now and then. Although, those classes/specs that don't have that kind of setup can experience things in a completely different way at times. Managable. But can be quite annoying.

I prefer EQ2, you can queue a spell up behind one that is casting so no concerns over GCD and you actually get watch and immerse yourself in combat - as opposed to watching god damn spell progress bars so you know when to hit the next key.
ATB(Active Turn Based) style. Now this is an interesting point. However, using queue can mess things up if one presses the wrong key(s) and does not realise it until too late. So I suppose that there are pros and cons with this as well.

Finally, in this post. I just want to say to all that attend this discussion: Loving it. Thanks for bringing this up and keep going. Hoping for something legendary to come out of it in the end :)
Hoping these replies made any sense (Woke up not too long ago :D )
 

Xylak

New Member
... hit the right keys in the right sequence over and over AND OVER.

Isn't this the basis for being successful at pretty much every single game ever? ;)

It's always going to be a problem, though. No matter what you do to the game mechanics, there will always be an 'optimum' order in which to perform actions. Therefore, you will always have a "rotation" which maximises your damage/threat/healing/whatever.
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
Isn't this the basis for being successful at pretty much every single game ever? ;)

It's always going to be a problem, though. No matter what you do to the game mechanics, there will always be an 'optimum' order in which to perform actions. Therefore, you will always have a "rotation" which maximises your damage/threat/healing/whatever.

Rotations, rotations, rotations. Ah yes.
Even have a rotation on my Half-Elf Berserker in EQ II ;)
The only way, I believe to elliminate rotaions, I think, would be to turn the game's casting/attack/shoot setup into ye ol' Final Fantasy setup (Which would be awesome. But considering the game mechanics, would be nearly impossible as there is no real TB(Turn Based) setup in Warcraft games.) :p
 

Pwnstar

Member
Yep it is too easy - button mashing isn't a skill. So are we in agreeance? Great!
Agreed, i would however argue that you don't button mash in wow... Unless you want to get DPS similar to Huungs (Terribly low FYI). I rarely smash a button repeatedly for the desired effect.... Well unless its vanish and i'm running for my goddamn life.

If it means I can take a breather from button mashing to actually lift my eyes from my spell bar and have time to dodge the giant asteroid that just got launched in my direction, or jump over rabid squirrels or /wink at irate nymphs, great!
Out of interest what class are you referring to in particular? In all the classes i've played i've never struggled to time moving from x-y and keeping my priority queue/debuffs/DoT's going at pretty much full strength.

Stop me if i'm wrong here but it sounds like a complaint about class mobility/specialisation is stemming here. That's another topic for another day... As i FUCKING HATE how they've homogenised the classes... e.g Rogues should rapeface single target and not have any AOE. Hybrids should do less DPS than pure classes etc.

If it means same old same old, but I can press the buttons slower. then yeah.. snoozefest.
I fear that is exactly what it will mean.

Also, speaking of resist based fights (never a good game design choice imo) to do Ragnaros you had to get fire res gear, which didn't exist apart from a couple of dropped (rare) rings, some sub-level gear you had to keep hold of, the onyxia cloak you had to do a whole questline and a 40 man raid for (once PER PLAYER!), and two items from crafting!
Personally I loved the idea, it meant guilds had to actually work to get gear neccessary for a fight, not just spam random heroics and be geared up enough to walk through ICC from badge loot.
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yep it is too easy - button mashing isn't a skill. So are we in agreeance? Great!
Button mashing. Works well for some. Not so well for others. If I button mash on my Spriest, someone will die. No doubt about it :D
I suppose it all boils down to class/spec/rotation type

So let's see what they mean by "slowing the game down".

If it means I can take a breather from button mashing to actually lift my eyes from my spell bar and have time to dodge the giant asteroid that just got launched in my direction, or jump over rabid squirrels or /wink at irate nymphs, great!
Hah! Loving it :p
If there is a giant asteroid heading your way form above. /stopcast and ruuun! ;)

If it means same old same old, but I can press the buttons slower. then yeah.. snoozefest.
(For some reason almost wrote [/QUEST] there :D )
If the game slows down in that manner. Then I agree in full. /yawn.
A still good pace is nice, to keep the game from getting boring.

Also, speaking of resist based fights (never a good game design choice imo) to do Ragnaros you had to get fire res gear, which didn't exist apart from a couple of dropped (rare) rings, some sub-level gear you had to keep hold of, the onyxia cloak you had to do a whole questline and a 40 man raid for (once PER PLAYER!), and two items from crafting!
Resistance-based fights were sooo much fun. Especially when not having any resistance gear. Made it so much more interesting :p
But yes. Getting the resistance items was a true challenge.(At times more a challenge than downing LK now :p )
Still remember the horrible running around like a headless chicken before Molten Core and Onyxia's Lair, trying to get certain things. :D
Ah fun times, hm? ;)
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
I was thinking of the opposite of FF style turn based combat.

Make it more real time. Item level and player level should affect character power, but other than that it should be skill skill skill.

Projectile classes should have to aim their spells, some mobs take more damage in some areas. They should be able to power up different levels of shots by remaining stationary and charging it, or rapid shots whilst on the move.

Melee classes should have to time their swings, build up combos, and have the ability to block/riposte on a button press - the effectiveness of the block is determined by gear and timing.

Healers would have to move around with the players, aim at them and heal. Ohter players have to be smart and not get in the healers los to the tank. Again they can charge up a heal whilst stationary for a more uber one. Obviously raid heals etc would still be cast as your basic spells, as now.

These are all pretty quick and flawed ideas I'm sure, but tbh the only ever fun mmo will be one that goes real time along similar lines.

Out of interest what class are you referring to in particular? In all the classes i've played i've never struggled to time moving from x-y and keeping my priority queue/debuffs/DoT's going at pretty much full strength.

Most projectile classes suffer on any raid encounter which is fun / involves a lot of movemnts, since they only have a couple of instant/weak attacks they can use whilst on the move.

Mage in particular has to stand still, press a button, repeat ad infinitum, trying to hit the key again just as the last spell ends (this is what I refer to as button mashing, albeit timed mashing). Not fun. Not fun at all. Watching the bars distracts you from the in game action. Watching bars is boring. Watching bars (or buffs) whilst standing still and pressing keys shouldn't be part of any game.
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
...would be to turn the game's casting/attack/shoot setup into ye ol' Final Fantasy setup...
This would be one of the few things that would make me purge WoW from my life forever.

Gee, I cannot think of a reason why. Oh wait. I CAN :p
WoW as FF TB-styled fighting with menu selection for each and every single little thing you do in a fight. Ouch :D
I completely agree with you there (for once ;) *pokes Pirate and giggles* )
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was thinking of the opposite of FF style turn based combat.

Make it more real time. Item level and player level should affect character power, but other than that it should be skill skill skill.

Projectile classes should have to aim their spells, some mobs take more damage in some areas. They should be able to power up different levels of shots by remaining stationary and charging it, or rapid shots whilst on the move.

Melee classes should have to time their swings, build up combos, and have the ability to block/riposte on a button press - the effectiveness of the block is determined by gear and timing.

Healers would have to move around with the players, aim at them and heal. Ohter players have to be smart and not get in the healers los to the tank. Again they can charge up a heal whilst stationary for a more uber one. Obviously raid heals etc would still be cast as your basic spells, as now.

These are all pretty quick and flawed ideas I'm sure, but tbh the only ever fun mmo will be one that goes real time along similar lines.



Most projectile classes suffer on any raid encounter which is fun / involves a lot of movemnts, since they only have a couple of instant/weak attacks they can use whilst on the move.

Mage in particular has to stand still, press a button, repeat ad infinitum, trying to hit the key again just as the last spell ends (this is what I refer to as button mashing, albeit timed mashing). Not fun. Not fun at all.

Please also keep in mind that Blizzard are very silly when it comes to utterly refusing to be logical and separating PvP and PvE mechanics :p
So I can see a lot of issues arising from this. You have some great ideas. This I will say. But there would be some ovious issues with this, sadly.

I will however agree that certain improvements are due
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
Please also keep in mind that Blizzard are very silly when it comes to utterly refusing to be logical and separating PvP and PvE mechanics :p
So I can see a lot of issues arising from this. You have some great ideas. This I will say. But there would be some ovious issues with this, sadly.

I dunno, action based pvp multiplayer games are usually pretty fun :)

*cough* TF2 *cough*
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
TBH WoW is hard... - A LOL response

Please also keep in mind that Blizzard are very silly when it comes to utterly refusing to be logical and separating PvP and PvE mechanics :p
So I can see a lot of issues arising from this. You have some great ideas. This I will say. But there would be some ovious issues with this, sadly.

I dunno, action based pvp multiplayer games are usually pretty fun :)

*cough* TF2 *cough*

Let us also keep in mind that TF2 is a RT-FPS, which differs it a LOT from most RPG-type game :p

But when it comes to RPG-type games, such as World of Warcraft, WoW itself stands out a bit. Partly because of the lib setups it carries.
The only way to implement LoS per-player, where each player also counts as an object(and in some cases an obsticle), they would basically have to re-work an entire set of libs from scratch. And this isn't likely to happen any time soon ;)
Although, I have to say that some of these ideas are highly interesting and have gotten me thinking about how it possibly could have worked out. But as said. Libs need to be re-worked. (And those are not few code chunks either :p ) and they would actually need to get off of their butts and bother to separate PvP and PvE mechanics.
Sadly, their boss is an Ogre and therefore has more a pension for hitting things with sticks :D
Ogres are not made for thinking! ;)
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
As WoW gets bigger and bigger, it also gets easier and easier. At the end of the day, Blizzard is a business, they're in it to make money. If this pisses off the top percentile of hardcore players who enjoy their game presenting a teeny-weeny challenge, but attracts a bucketload of shitty 12 year olds, (and those who play like one) to the game, then they'll do it.

Silkth: Whilst making WoW into an FPSRTS Quicktime event sounds hilarious, it's overly complex. The beauty of WoW for me lay in it's simplicity of mechanics, but complexity of maths. Sure, you could be shit and just spam abilities at the boss like a snueglypher, but you could also do SO much reading around on your class and perfect your abilities - and it does show. I challenge any other enh shaman to sit in my gear and outDPS me - it won't happen.
If you were to introduce a complex mechanic like aiming into the game, you'd have even more problems with retards than you currently do. People can't even run out of a ring of fire when they're covered in flaming green shit - and all they have to do atm is stand there and press the right button at roughly the right time. Can you imagine how bad those people would be if you introduced yet another factor they could fuck up on?! "OH I SORRY LOL I HAVE LAG MY COMP NOT GUD AND I WUZ AIMING AND I DIDN'T C IT LOL". Jesus. I think I'd actually have to track people down and rip their hearts out.

Fae: FF style in the traditional style? GTFO. I'm playing FFXIV atm (newest MMO shinyness etc) and even FF doesn't play like FF in an MMO situation. You can't go from one extreme of, "I'm made to feel bad because I'm incapable of pressing a series of buttons with a decent speed" to "I have to go through 3 menus to cast a spell". That's just plain bad.


tl:dr: GTFO my maths, Blizzard. That's why I liked this game - hell, it's not as if it's got anything else going for it anymore. The social aspect has fallen apart, there's no challenge on any boss encounter, gearing is easier than taking a dump after a night out at a curry house, and the graphics are beyond outdated.
 
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