The betrayal of an American hero

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
I think some of the confusion in this sort of issue is the difference between the personal perspective and the societal or "higher" level perspective.

From a personal perspective, the story of a man who gives up a successful career to do something they believe in that leads to their death is one of heroism. That he died to blue-on-blue is a shame but it doesn't take away from his contribution as both a person on the ground and as an example for those whose conviction might flag without a role model.

However, from a "higher" level perspective (I hesitate to use "objective" but I mean wider, more societally focused) incidents of blue-on-blue are a product of armed conflict and simply to be expected when a nation fields their fighting force. As, indeed, are civilian casualties. And use of banned weapons. In fact, the whole notion of illegal weaponry borders on absurd. What do you mean that I can blow your arm off with a 7.62mm round but being burnt by white phosphorous is somehow less acceptable? Just ludicrous.

So, at a societal level, I feel that people need to man up and understand that if they're going to intervene with military means then people are going to get hurt, by both sides, on both sides.

But at the individual level, it still doesn't take away from one man's contribution.

That said, I do think it's a crying shame that the focus is on someone who already had the limelight and not, for example, on someone poor or unknown whose contribution can be equal in terms of heroism. I guess that's just the commercial nature of media and "news".
 

Panda with issues...

Well-Known Member
I agree with this statement, but in the interests of fairness (and exercising my degree) I should point out that while white phosphorus is most definitely illegal to use against civilians or in civilian areas, such as when Israel used it in their assault on Gaza, it's argubaly not prevented from use in a purely military context. Protocol III article 1 of the [United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, arguably the main legal source for the use of this weapon, only states that 'incendiary' weapons may not be used against civilians but nothing about military targets. Unfortunately I've found over my years of study that while the US uses questionable tactics and weapons, they're normally careful to stay within the letter of the law but not necessarily its spirit.

Not necessarily on the subject of the discussion, cos I'm not touching it with a 10 foot barge pole, but just thought I'd comment on the issue Panda raised about White Phosphorus for anyone interested.

I guess this is a case of where does the civilian and insurgent line become clear? - Answer, it doesn't, and civilians are going to get hurt.

I feel that protocol 3 article 1 isn't even clear on this. I guess the US argue that shake and bake munitions are legal because they are used against fortifications? Despite the fact that the 'bake' part describes what they are designed to do to the OCCUPANTS of those fortifications.

@Ronin:

Whilst I agree to an extent with your point, I feel that it could be argued in this way:

Certain weapons have been banned by international law and consensus. The USA, if it wants to portray itself as the guiding light of the 'civilised' world, and make war on people it considers a threat to 'freedom' and democracy, really ought to abide by those laws.

What do you mean that I can blow your arm off with a 7.62mm round but being burnt by white phosphorous is somehow less acceptable? Just ludicrous.

Certain things ARE less acceptable. My chemistry teacher burned his finger with white phosphorus and required 3 months of skin grafts. There was a reason neither side in the second world war used gas on each other.
 

Tempscire

Active Member
I guess this is a case of where does the civilian and insurgent line become clear? - Answer, it doesn't, and civilians are going to get hurt.

I feel that protocol 3 article 1 isn't even clear on this. I guess the US argue that shake and bake munitions are legal because they are used against fortifications? Despite the fact that the 'bake' part describes what they are designed to do to the OCCUPANTS of those fortifications.

Unfortunately it's because the Conventions wording is open to interpretation that you get incidents like this. It all depends on perspective. To the US, 'insurgents', 'terrorists', whatever, are enemy combatants and therefore fair game. It's a rebels vs. freedom fighters argument. As I mentioned before, the US are very good at sticking to the letter of ambiguously phrased international international law to get there way. And if anyone disagrees with their interpretation of it then hey, might makes right. The US has the political, technological and military strength to play the game however it wants and it does so whenever it likes (I'm playing devils advocate by the way, I don't endorse a 'might makes right' philosophy).

As I said earlier I'm not getting involved in the Tillman story, but for what it's worth I agree with Ronin. The war may be prosecuted badly and atrocities happen every day but a, by all accounts, highly intelligent man giving up his lucrative career to pursue a dangerous path that he thinks is right? I think that's pretty heroic even if I disagree with the war as a whole.
 

Dr Drae

In Cryo Sleep
I too disagree with war as a whole, so do bear that in mind when reading the rest of this.

Having said that, a man who is worth that much, and could easily live a happy lifestyle, and then give it up to protect his country, is the absolute pinnacle of humanity in my opinion. Somebody who could be perfectly happy, willing to lay their life on the line to protect what they love. That is damned heroic.

That he was shot by his own side is tragic, but an occurence.

What I don't agree with is (if I read correctly) that he's now being used as an example of heroism, to encourage recruitment? That somebody could actually, knowing the circumstances of that case, say "Let's use HIM as a posterboy" kind of disgusts me. I understand he's a prime example of heroism, but considering what happened, would it not be more respectful to use somebody else?
 

Xylak

New Member
OK, I've finally got around to getting back on the forum and have been reading through the can-o-worms I seem to have opened up with this one.

It's good to see some people have gotten the point of this story in that yes, it's sad that "friendly fire" incidents happen (a lot more than we know!) and that they get covered up but that what is most galling about this story is how they tried to use his death as part of a recruitment drive all the while keeping the real story covered up. (damn that's a long sentence!)

It's a sad state of affairs that we, as the general population, are prepared to accept this kind of activity - both the death and cover up - as being normal and taking an almost "so what" attitude.
We are becoming desensitised to so much that goes on when we should be getting angry and demanding transparency and honesty from those who we put in charge of running our governments (and subsequently our armed forces).
We should be shocked by this story and I am sad and angry that we generally aren't.

Pat Tillman isn't the only hero to have given his life for what he believes to be right. But his story should be repeatedly told so that those who don't know it can learn about how modern-day propaganda is used and, hopefully, not listen to it any more. Maybe they'll even get angry enough to question those in power about such appalling behaviour and make the-powers-that-be know that WE know what they're up to and that we won't take their shit any more.

Peace, love and hugs, man.
 
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