This Friday's raid and the future of our raiding.

[T-Bone]

Im sure many of you have noticed that our raiding has been terrible recently. It has certainly been a contributing factor to some of our guilds big players leaving and therefore making the raiding suck more (I love iteration). There is no doubt that we are stuck in a rut and we need to get out of it. I have just tonight decided to take full control of raiding procedures again without having to 'committee' every little thing. To that end there is a two part plan put in place that will hopefully sort this problem out.

1) I have asked Razaak to put a post on our realm and general LFG forums of the WoW forum. We need to do this as we have enough people currently for one ten man group but not enough for two. Hopefully getting a few more people in will allow us to get two separate groups going that change little each week so as to build up smooth running. I said a while ago that my goal was to have two ten man groups by the end of September this is still the case. This is the easier part. The second was a much harder decision to make and it was not done lightly.

2) This Friday and for up to the next three weeks the Friday night raiding will be exclusively one group of our best ten people with the aim of clearing Ulduar 10 completely. Usually we try to leave enough of a group for a second ten man to be formed but this is just not possible if we want enough people with the experience to lead two ulduar ten groups soon. The idea being that these ten people get the gear and experience to get another ten through and allow us to build ourselves up. To this end anyone who is trial raider or a raider not included in the 'top ten' is allowed to pug any raid they wish for the next three weeks.. While this means the guild isn't exclusively catering to you think of this as your chance to cater for the guild. If you are not chosen go out, pug and prove yourselves better than those chosen and earn yourself a spot.

So, I apologise in advance for those left out but I hope you understand this is a step that needs taken or our guild will crumble and fall. If you have any issues feel free to grab me in game or pm me here and we'll chat about it.

Thanks for understanding.

-- The Unbreakable One.

 

[T-Bone]

I would also like to point out here that, in no particular order, the group I would consider to be the top ten* at the moment (Based on a combo of gear and skill) are;

Tanks:

Tuldur
Rathje

Healers:

Glen
Midge
Zooggy

DPS:

Lonsecia
Arithidrimme
Woogle
Corenith
Sasser

* I wish to point out that this group consideration is not just based on DPS output but balancing a lot of things including melee/ranged dps balance and class combos.

There are many, MANY other names currently residing on the bubble so if your name isn't there do not fret. If you know you're good I know it as well and I know that you are capable and have every chance of being taken. Likewise there a few names low down on this list but Im sure they know who they are and we are working with them to help them move up.

 

[T-Bone]

One further thing and as a slight variation of the group listed above, the group going on Friday (Based on the current signups) is;

Tanks

Tuldur
Rathje

Healers

Marqo
Zooggy
Aymasia

DPS

Lonsecia
Arithidrimme
Woogle
Corenith
Sasser

This group is subject to change but as it stands this is the group I'll be taking.

 

[Skcornnelg]

Herro Prease

While it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside that you have me in this post, I will be unable to take part in any progression raids from now until mid/late September.
My game time is up on the 5th August and I wont be renewing it until sometime after i come back from China.

I wish you guys the best of luck, both in Ulduar and 3.2.

FU all


Glenn

 

[Marqo]

Hmmm...

First of all, I think this plan will indeed work out well for our raiding progress if all goes as planned.

However, I think it might be a good idea if someone of the guild leadership not involved with the progression runs organizes a scheduled run for naxx/OS in order to help gear up those people who do not yet have the gear and/or raiding experience to go into Ulduar with the progression team, as well as any new recruits in order to familiarise them with the way we raid. I myself would be willing to help that group as well in weeks I'm not chosen to go into Ulduar. Doing so will, I believe, increase our raiding pool for Ulduar considerably after the three weeks and gives new people a chance to familiarise themselves with the community.

If 3.2 does indeed go live next wednesday, as some believe, they will also be able to save up for some Conquest gear. In that situation, I assume the "top ten" will also be going into Coll10n to see if we can handle it. I fully expect us to wipe horribly on the first encounter there, but do think it should be tried.

I hope my rambling provides any useful information. I wasn't expecting to write something this long when I clicked post reply.

 

[Silk]

I guesss I'll temporarily retire then, I'm already in naxx gear and can't progress more without Ulduar. I feel skill-wise I am on par with the other guild tanks but if you don't need a third one I can find other things to do. Have fun disenchanting the purples you already own which could have gone to others.

p.s. I don't think it's my fault I am still at trial raider.
p.p.s. Unless anyone can state otherwise I believe I have been tanking Ulduar 10 just fine..

 

[Windzarko]

You have been tanking fine, Silk. Lots of people not on the list are fine or better than fine.

The idea here is that Mimiron has been a stumbling block for us for nigh on two months now, if not more. And when we run two groups, one or both groups often ends up with some degree of trouble with various bosses and cannot progress past downing one keeper at best.

What we want is to gain the experience of downing the three remaining bosses and gain the gear that comes from that to further empower a chosen ten; once we can clear Mimiron, Vezax and Yogg'saron with that group of ten, then we KNOW we can do it, and the ten will be better armed and armoured for us to spread them between two groups that will then be more successful.

This isn't a slight on anyone not chosen; most of you are good or very good, but unfortunately at the moment we need a little bit more than that to progress, and once we break our current progression barrier, there's no reason for everyone else being unable to do the same.

Also, whilst many people may feel they can't progress without Ulduar, I'm not entirely sure that's true; there's still Malygos, and there's still Sartharion, especially with drakes up for the extra loot that gives. On top of that, as Tbone said, people not chosen for the 10-man are free to PuG ANYTHING. Literally anything, even 25-man Ulduar. There's still chance for everyone to improve, and it's even possible, if there's enough spare people, that we can at least try and run 10 not in the main group through Flame Leviathan at least.

The Ulduar 10-man plan is a necessary step, but I hope that everyone else can still have fun and manage to raid without us. And there's nothing to stop the chosen ten from helping out on those or other characters in runs on other nights (I'm more than willing to bring Syraneth to heal for an Ulduar10 on other nights, if there's the people for it).

Chin up, peoples!

 

[Silk]

You have been tanking fine, Silk. Lots of people not on the list are fine or better than fine.

The idea here is that Mimiron has been a stumbling block for us for nigh on two months now, if not more. And when we run two groups, one or both groups often ends up with some degree of trouble with various bosses and cannot progress past downing one keeper at best.

What we want is to gain the experience of downing the three remaining bosses and gain the gear that comes from that to further empower a chosen ten; once we can clear Mimiron, Vezax and Yogg'saron with that group of ten, then we KNOW we can do it, and the ten will be better armed and armoured for us to spread them between two groups that will then be more successful.

This isn't a slight on anyone not chosen; most of you are good or very good, but unfortunately at the moment we need a little bit more than that to progress, and once we break our current progression barrier, there's no reason for everyone else being unable to do the same.

Also, whilst many people may feel they can't progress without Ulduar, I'm not entirely sure that's true; there's still Malygos, and there's still Sartharion, especially with drakes up for the extra loot that gives. On top of that, as Tbone said, people not chosen for the 10-man are free to PuG ANYTHING. Literally anything, even 25-man Ulduar. There's still chance for everyone to improve, and it's even possible, if there's enough spare people, that we can at least try and run 10 not in the main group through Flame Leviathan at least.

The Ulduar 10-man plan is a necessary step, but I hope that everyone else can still have fun and manage to raid without us. And there's nothing to stop the chosen ten from helping out on those or other characters in runs on other nights (I'm more than willing to bring Syraneth to heal for an Ulduar10 on other nights, if there's the people for it).

Chin up, peoples!

I wonder what exactly you mean by a "core" 10 man group.. gear, or skill? I know you're trying to disguise the elitism going on here but frankly if you want the guild to progress then what you shoud be considering is taking at least *some* of your more skilled / less geared players along for the bosses you are happy with and only swapping around when needed.

What is the point in disenchanting drops from the first few bosses? Is that guild progression?

From what I've seen Ulduar fights are, like any other, about teamwork, listening, communication and coordination. Gear helps but isn't the be all and end all. Personally I could go read up (& watch utube vids) on Mimiron and know the fight inside-out within the hour, so don't really know why others can't do the same, where you are going wrong or why.

Don't get me wrong, I know you want to see Ulduar cleared, but you can't just turn your backs on half the guild in doing so. Otherwise rather than growing, the guild will shrink further.

 

[Dr Drae]

In relation to Ari's post, I also find this system (at least for the next three weeks) quite helpful; this means we have a better understanding of who's needed for certain raids, and can adapt to that, for instance, there have been a few comments on how nobody knows what is happening until the night; possibly ruining a night out.

This also means that we are free to PuG ANYTHING; essentially giving us a better chance of gearing up; for instance, we can still go and do one of the many 25-man Flame Levi's that are always around, as well as PuG Naxx 25's, Malygos, and Ulduar. Whilst we may not be doing it in the security of our guild, we can still experience doing the same challenges and getting the same level of gear outside of the guild.

If anything, this means we have a MUCH better chance of clearing more of Ulduar, and getting better gear in the future. This is essentially a decision made by the guild for the bettering of the guild itself, as opposed to each individual member. As part of the guild, we will all be able to reap the rewards from this bettering later on.

I think that's my piece said. Feel free anybody to pick me out on anything I've said.

Thanks,
Dr Drae

 

[Silk]

In relation to Ari's post, I also find this system (at least for the next three weeks) quite helpful; this means we have a better understanding of who's needed for certain raids, and can adapt to that, for instance, there have been a few comments on how nobody knows what is happening until the night; possibly ruining a night out.

This also means that we are free to PuG ANYTHING; essentially giving us a better chance of gearing up; for instance, we can still go and do one of the many 25-man Flame Levi's that are always around, as well as PuG Naxx 25's, Malygos, and Ulduar. Whilst we may not be doing it in the security of our guild, we can still experience doing the same challenges and getting the same level of gear outside of the guild.

If anything, this means we have a MUCH better chance of clearing more of Ulduar, and getting better gear in the future. This is essentially a decision made by the guild for the bettering of the guild itself, as opposed to each individual member. As part of the guild, we will all be able to reap the rewards from this bettering later on.

I think that's my piece said. Feel free anybody to pick me out on anything I've said.

Thanks,
Dr Drae

A 25 man pug... hahahahha

*falls off chair*

So ok, after three hours when you finally maybe clear some trash and kill a boss, and the tank rolls on the hunter bow and the hunter rolls on the DPS sword.. then what?

I would rather stab myself in the eye repeatedly. A guild is about community, not about having to put together sh1tty pointless raids with complete newbs. I've not been playing wow over 350 days for that kind of bs, I've had my fill of it.

 

[Dr Drae]

In the past two weeks I've chanced upon 2 raids that have raided 25 man Naxx, without problems, clearing up to 3 wings in one night. It's just a matter of finding the right PuG.

I agree, a guild is about community, but it's also about being able to make certain sacrifices to better itself. It's impossible to keep everybody happy at the same time; but in the long run, this would be our best chance.

 

[Silk]

In the past two weeks I've chanced upon 2 raids that have raided 25 man Naxx, without problems, clearing up to 3 wings in one night. It's just a matter of finding the right PuG.

I agree, a guild is about community, but it's also about being able to make certain sacrifices to better itself. It's impossible to keep everybody happy at the same time; but in the long run, this would be our best chance.

Seen all this before.

They're clear it, then clear it again, then again. Then be bored of it, maybe one or two will help the rest of us but more likely we'd have to start from scratch outselves. You only have to look how much certain people b1tch and moan about not running naxx again, or heroics again, because they're bored of it/them. Next it will be Ulduar.

 

[Dr Drae]

And yet every week we manage to get a 10 man Naxx going. Hell, I need nothing more from there and I go every week. Naxx is boring. I agree with that sentiment.

Ulduar however, is a lot more challenging and unique. I mean, even if this does go to the Naxx side of things, we will still have well geared players willing to help us gear up.

 

[Windzarko]

I'm a bit bored of DPS'ing in Naxx because I was doing it before Wrath as well. Also the ambience or something about the visuals of the place really messes with my head sometimes (pushes me over the edge into a headache). But I love Ulduar. The ONLY boss in there that I'm not overly fond of is Ignis, and I still find it reasonably entertaining if we don't wipe more than a couple of times.

I can't speak for everyone else, of course, but I don't believe for a second that the ten are going to clear once or twice and then get bored and drift off. We're going to want to do it more. We'll still want to be able to gear up, face the challenge, shine alongside our raiding peers, and - later down the line - try the hard modes.

Less of the doom and gloom!

 

[Marqo]

I'm a bit bored of DPS'ing in Naxx because I was doing it before Wrath as well. Also the ambience or something about the visuals of the place really messes with my head sometimes (pushes me over the edge into a headache). But I love Ulduar. The ONLY boss in there that I'm not overly fond of is Ignis, and I still find it reasonably entertaining if we don't wipe more than a couple of times.

I can't speak for everyone else, of course, but I don't believe for a second that the ten are going to clear once or twice and then get bored and drift off. We're going to want to do it more. We'll still want to be able to gear up, face the challenge, shine alongside our raiding peers, and - later down the line - try the hard modes.

Less of the doom and gloom!

I agree completely. Even if I'm not taken along to Ulduar, I'd like to do some other raiding with guildies in order to improve my gear and help them improve their gear. Naxx may not be the most fun of instances, going there in a good-spirited guild run is still a very fun way to spend an evening.

 

[Windzarko]

I agree completely. Even if I'm not taken along to Ulduar, I'd like to do some other raiding with guildies in order to improve my gear and help them improve their gear. Naxx may not be the most fun of instances, going there in a good-spirited guild run is still a very fun way to spend an evening.

Exactly. When I'm free and they need me, I'll go. I prefer to heal it rather than DPS it, but I'll do either. I'm not nearly as enthused with the instance as I used to be, and there is literally nothing in there for me short of extra gold if we don't wipe much/at all, and some extra badges that might come in handy later. I don't stop doing it just because I'm a bit bored of it. I'll continue to do it on those same characters, and maybe others later down the line.

And for now, I love Ulduar. I love the challenge, the look, the feel, the music, the encounters, and the tantalising challenges of the hard modes somewhere in the hopefully-not-too-distant future.

 

[Silk]

Exactly. When I'm free and they need me, I'll go. I prefer to heal it rather than DPS it, but I'll do either. I'm not nearly as enthused with the instance as I used to be, and there is literally nothing in there for me short of extra gold if we don't wipe much/at all, and some extra badges that might come in handy later. I don't stop doing it just because I'm a bit bored of it. I'll continue to do it on those same characters, and maybe others later down the line.

And for now, I love Ulduar. I love the challenge, the look, the feel, the music, the encounters, and the tantalising challenges of the hard modes somewhere in the hopefully-not-too-distant future.

My sentiments exactly, and yes I've also done naxx (to death actually) pre-wrath.
I like Ulduar more than naxx too. It isn't really about gear for me (which is why you'll often see me passing on partial upgrades that others can use more).

The only difference between our scenarios is that apparently I don't get a choice. If I were sh1t, understandable, but I'm not, so F**k it.

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey,

I wonder what exactly you mean by a "core" 10 man group.. gear, or skill?

Neither. Or rather, these are included, but the concept is that of a core team, not core group. A team is about more than each individual's numbers, it's also about how used they are to working with each other. For instance, me and Ting together are worth about three healers. But put me with Angelic and I'm half a healer. He's faster than me and possibly even more knowlegeable, but most importantly, I can't read him well enough to synergize. It's that teaminess thing I was talking about here.

I readily grant that there is a risk of cliquiness(*) in this, in that people that are this used to playing with each other might then not want to give up their "well-oiled machine". (Some sarcasm added to that expression, there.) About that, let me reinforce that this is strictly a three-week thing. Do not, for even a moment, assume that we're discarding the rest of the guild, which we're not.

Those of you that were with us for TBC will recall that we did much the same thing with Zul'aman. For the first few weeks, only a select core team got to go, because it was a critical phase in the team building process. When we got into full swing TK/SSC raiding, the restriction was abandoned. Controversial as it may be (or have been at the time, and it was), it was a vital component of our raiding success in TBC.

Philosophical Considerations

The Haven is not, never has been, and never will be a hard core raiding guild. We will never use that DKP bull and we will never have a global rigid raiding structure. The community will always be important. That means that the steps we have to take towards building our teams are necessarily different from the steps those guys take.

That said, I'm not discarding anyone's concerns. As officers, we are all accountable to you, the guild members, as to how and why we're doing things. Your protest is valid, and it is valued, more than you know.

Specific Concerns

They're clear it, then clear it again, then again. Then be bored of it, maybe one or two will help the rest of us but more likely we'd have to start from scratch outselves. You only have to look how much certain people b1tch and moan about not running naxx again, or heroics again, because they're bored of it/them. Next it will be Ulduar.

This. This will not happen. Let me put it this way: This. Will. Not. Happen. I don't know how much my word is worth to you, as you have no way of knowing me personally, but consider this my personal promise to you and to the rest of the guild.

Naxx may not be the most fun of instances, going there in a good-spirited guild run is still a very fun way to spend an evening.

On the other hand, here, hmmm, yes and no. The last time I was in a Naxx-10 full clear, we got, like, 30-odd pieces of loot, of which, about 5 were distributed main spec, about ten were disenchanted, and the rest was handed off as off-spec gear. And these were the alts and the community members, not the raiders...

There comes a point in time where pointlessness just kicks in.

Naxx-10 drops loot that is on par with reputation and crafted gear, though, so I expect it will be ages before we're at that stage with Ulduar.

How You Can Help

One way is, seriously, for three weeks only, go out and PUG. Not because you get gear. You won't unless you're extremely lucky with how the PUG turns out. Not because you get experience. Again, heavy luck is involved. But there's other things you might gain.

• Well, for once, you might just get lucky. It could happen.
  
• Also, you might meet people that you feel would be a good addition to the guild. Anyone that applies to this guild with a solid vouch from a guildie has gotten in, even when their application is not 100% all there.
  
• You get a forum to experiment with your talent/glyph/gear build. You're not being evaluated, there's no presure to perform, and ultimately, there's no real pressure to succed, so if're sub-optimal, that won't hurt you none. And who knows, you might even learn something about yourself.

Another way is, don't PUG. Instead, go out and farm high-end materials useful for consumables, enchants, gems and whatnot. The guild bank has some cash on hand. Midge and Aymasia will probably be more than happy to give you some golds for your trouble. No, it's not the most exciting thing ever, but it's just for three weeks.

Lastly, something very solid you might do is, well, excercize leadership and organize the rest of the gang into a second Ulduar group. You can PUG anything, and there's no rule that says that your PUG can't be a 100% guild PUG.

Cheers,
J.

(*) However, Tom DeMarco, in his Peopleware book, says the following: "The difference between a team and a clique is the same as the difference between a breeze and a draft. They are the exact same thing, but if you like it, you call it a breeze and if you don't, you call it a draft."

 

[Elincia]

hmmmmm
*thinks very deeply*

I got 1 question.

What is going to happen after the three weeks are over and we still don't have the numbers ( or healers or tanks) for 2 ulduar 10 man runs??

 

[Burrick]

Ok well i think that the first thing that MUST be said is a MASSIVE thank you to tuldur who has the bollox to take this dog turd of a problem on ... it has been a problem since i came back into the fold and it is the main reason that i have not been raiding on progression (even though i would love to ) .... i also think that all posts here have had thier valid points and reasons.. however i do 100% agree with the mad scottish fella and also with mr z's very calming post that almost made me feel like i should maybe love everyone instead of my normal hatred to all

On another note that was raised about having the "core" 10 doing the clearance in ulduar.. myself and buggy have been in this guild for a very long time TBC and before so we can say with all confidence that this has to be done .. someone said that this is not fair and that it will hurt the guid.. i dont beleive so as the same thing happened in TBC and after a very short time we were all doing SSC and the like so please beleive the officers when they say this has to be done as its the truth! (do what your bloody told!!)

I wish the "elite" group all the best and to the rest of you scurrvy dogs get out there and play the game