This Friday's raid and the future of our raiding.

[Windzarko]

Elincia, we DO have the numbers to run two Ulduar groups, we just don't have enough people in sufficient gearing to make two solid groups, and certainly not two groups that can clear past Auriaya most of the time. Our intent is to take steps to progress with one group so that later we can have two very solid groups that should at least be able to clear most if not all keepers each week, with a reasonable shot at actually clearing the raid, given two raid nights each.

 

[T-Bone]

OK. I started work at 12 noon yesterday and I'm just home so forgive me if this isn't the most eloquent thing you've ever heard.

I suppose this post is mostly addressed to Silk but also to anyone else who feels her concerns also. First off let me assure you that the problem you foresee of the same ten people doing this from now until the end will just not happen. Zooggy has given you his word and now I am giving you mine, such as it is. I also want to say that in relation to the way you are talking about not being good enough, this isn't true and I never said that. You have the gear and you have the skill, you do however need a lot of practise on some encounters and this you will gain from pugging and maybe even trying to organise and lead the tuesday ten man naxx if you desire? Also to reference zooggy and what he said about ting and him working well together. I feel the same with razaak and the way I used to feel about Titann. I find I can read him well and he can I so we work very well together. There are others, yourself and lideon, spring to mind that are good individually but need practise working as a team, it's far more important than you think. So get out there, raid together and prove your better than us.

I'd also like to restate a few things and in order to try and re-explain myself let me say it like this. We need to be doing Ulduar with two ten man groups, this is our current goal. We have the people for that but we lack a lot of the experience. I, as our main raid leader and tank, and only comfortable fully with knowing the first 5 bosses (FL, RzrScl, Ignis, Decon and Kolo) everything else I have huge gaping holes in my knowledge. I don't feel comfortable leading a raid past that point as I have only seen the bosses after that that we have killed go down twice and sometimes once and I have not even attended mimiron yet. A lot of us I think feel the same. The times we have had two ulduars going they both got to this point then started to fall apart. I want to reiterate that the point of this, for me mainly, is to get this knowledge for me and some others so we can tell other raiders how to do everything properly. I can't help you until I know what I'm doing, which is why I need a couple of weeks at this. If this goes well we stand to gain a lot and I should also point out that "Recruitment has begun" to fill the few gaps we have and hopefully we will be sorted soon.

On smaller notes I want to say to Marqo that I don't want to abandon the people not going to ulduar but I will also not, in good concience, send a group that is incapable of clearing more than maybe three bosses. You say everyone is good enough but we've seen many failures. Again it comes down to being good individually but not gelling as a team. The Tuesday night raid is still going on so again I suggest you use that night to show us whats what.

Finally thanks to burrick and the doc for your support, it means a lot coming from you guys.

* Fuck it's 6 a.m. .... *Cry*

-- The Unbreakable One

 

[Brighthorn]

i really appreciate this, T-bone... it is very important to have a strong and confident core raid-wise, to help "the rest". the only thing i might add, that this (mostly silk's) disenchantment might stem from this coming a wee-bit late, which is quite obvious - we have a new "content" coming and just now you're trying to form a group that should focus on the old stuff. The way my old, old, incredibly old guild (which had and still has very good progress indeed) worked was the very opposite...

when a new content popped up, they've formed a strictly rigid group of people, who would raid that for like a month or two, while the rest was still gearing in the older instances, and when the core was confident enough in their doing (they didn't have to full-clear the instance yet, just get as far as possible) and the rest was wearing the older line of epics they'd go for two groups, with this core evenly split...

these are just thoughts to think about

anyway, way to go!

 

[Angelic]

Riiiight...

I _hope_ this is a good idea.

Not mentioning the elitism/core/old pals thing Silk mentioned and I might suspect to some extent too, I felt like bitching about my own performance a little...but I'm willing to admit I may not work so well in a team with Zoogmeister than others, especially because this is not measurable and therefore very hazy and subjective. I wonder, however, what sort of a team would it be if we put together, say, not Zooggy and Midge, but me and Ting...you get the point, keep class balance, swap out individuals. Not to worry, though, I don't feel offended or anything, just a slight stab of my overgrown ego.

Well, all in all, good luck in there, guys, I hope this works out.

Also, while I'll be gone for a week from Monday, I'll try and organize another U10 group (or OS/Maly) for today and Sunday. I still haven't figured out how to post an event...

Angelic

P.S.: One question, though, what Elincia asked: what happens if after three weeks you still haven't cleared the whole place? (Which I suspect will happen.)

 

[Zooggy]

Hi,

A quick note:

The way my old, old, incredibly old guild (which had and still has very good progress indeed) worked was the very opposite...

when a new content popped up, they've formed a strictly rigid group of people, who would raid that for like a month or two, while the rest was still gearing in the older instances, and when the core was confident enough in their doing (they didn't have to full-clear the instance yet, just get as far as possible) and the rest was wearing the older line of epics they'd go for two groups, with this core evenly split...

Erm... This is, like, exactly what we're doing... How is this "the very opposite"?

Also, to Angelic: thanks for stepping up!

To everyone else: go check out his event and sign up!

Cheers,
J.

 

[Zooggy]

Hey,

Also, sorry for the double post, but I wanted to add a note:

If you're available for raiding on Friday, and you're not on that list, sign up anyway. Things happen, some times, and key people don't show up, so you may get to go yet.

There's no guarantees, though. It may just be that taking someone else from the signup list is the way to go. Or it may not. Depends on the circumstances. Like T-Bone said, this is a highly critical juncture for the guild, and everything is being actively decided, on a case by case basis.

Looking at the signup pages, I see that many of you already did that, anyway, and that's a good thing.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Brighthorn]

Erm... This is, like, exactly what we're doing... How is this "the very opposite"?

From what i've gathered, you'll be focusing on ud10... not on colliseum, but whatever i was thinking time-wise, nothing else

 

[Bradley]

Firstly, like Burrick, I would like to thank T-Bone and the other officers for coming up with this plan. Our raiding has not been what it should be over the past couple of months, and instead of some of the gloom that has been portrayed by some of the responses in this thread, I now believe that there is some light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

I joined late in the TBC, after this same plan had been constructed and carried out, and the raiding at the end of TBC was nothing short of phenomenal. I loved every minute of it. We would have our progression raids on Friday and Monday (Continuation) and on the weekend another raid more often than not would go down, I can remember a few times TK, and most often Kara, Zul Aman, Gruul or Maggy. This point therefore is trying to say that people did not get bored of the content then after the same plan was initiated, and I do not believe that it would be different now. Zooggy and T-Bone have given assurrances, which in my eyes was not needed.

So to close I would like to thank T-Bone and the other officers for doing this again, and again borrowing the great Burrick's phrasing again, play the game.

 

[Silk]

OK. I started work at 12 noon yesterday and I'm just home so forgive me if this isn't the most eloquent thing you've ever heard.

I suppose this post is mostly addressed to Silk but also to anyone else who feels her concerns also. First off let me assure you that the problem you foresee of the same ten people doing this from now until the end will just not happen. Zooggy has given you his word and now I am giving you mine, such as it is. I also want to say that in relation to the way you are talking about not being good enough, this isn't true and I never said that. You have the gear and you have the skill, you do however need a lot of practise on some encounters and this you will gain from pugging and maybe even trying to organise and lead the tuesday ten man naxx if you desire? Also to reference zooggy and what he said about ting and him working well together. I feel the same with razaak and the way I used to feel about Titann. I find I can read him well and he can I so we work very well together. There are others, yourself and lideon, spring to mind that are good individually but need practise working as a team, it's far more important than you think. So get out there, raid together and prove your better than us.

*Bangs head against desk*

How does one get better at teamwork without first being in the team? I'll learn to tank with some randoms, and that helps me know the guild and how each individual works.. how, exactly? This whole thing reeks of contradiction.. your reason for the core group is you need people in the guild to work well together; to do this they must raid together, yet you tell the rest of us the complete opposite.. go fanny about in PUGs and (in my case) learn nothing because you already know the damn game inside out and the only thing left to learn is how your guildies work!!

I find some of your comments mildly insulting; I am probably a better team player than you realise, since it was pretty much essential in vanilla 40 man content of which I have probably got more experience than anyone. Not to mention the fact that on the very first night we tanked together in Naxx10, I did everything that was asked of me and no singular wipe was caused by anything about our tanking pair-up. Tell me how many other players can get it right first time.

Regarding raid leading; let me put this bluntly. Raid leading is nothing to do with teamwork and everything to do with leadership. I have never and will never raid lead, I do not have the patience, I would get angry and say nasty things. I am not a leader, but I am a damn good player nonetheless and I fail to see how the two have to intertwine for me to "prove" anything.

Proving I'm better than you? I don't really care about that but since you mentioned it, I've single handedly prevented a wipe on 40-man Onyxia on my MAGE for Gods sake. I don't need hand holding, I see things and I react, I'm what you call a natural. I never once questioned my skills, I questioned your views of them. You haven't played with me enough to make any judgement, and now that you've segregated yourself, you'll never know.

The reason I'm taking more offense than anyone else is because I've been shelved without even been given a chance. Hit 80, put a lot of effort into getting the right gear, only just started showing I'm a capable player, and oh look now you're off doing your own thing. Whatever..

On a more sombre note, good luck with a core team, hope no one gets ill or can't make it you're f**ked really aren't you.

 

[Razaak]

OK, I've bitten my tongue on this one long enough.

There are three factors that have been considered - gear, skill and attitude. Two out of three ain't bad, but one of those needs some serious work.

Besides, once 3.2 hits, you can have my spot, since Paladins will be the kings of tanking, and DKs will have finally completed their transition from "hero class" to "joke class".

 

[Zooggy]

Ahey,

[mod]Thread closed before it sours up beyond the possibility of repair.

To anyone who really wants to say anything, I ask that you start another thread.

Much appreciated.[/mod]

Cheers,
J.