what do we want?

[Lyranne]

I'm writing this to air my own opinions and frustrations, which might come across as single-minded, blinkered, whathaveyou, but they're from my perspective, so it's not that surprising (Never said I was a super loose kinda gal... except the bit about being from Essex).
Note that this is not aimed at anyone, just mindless venting/general 'Rargh, I need to get it out of my system' screaming.

Anyway, what I want from the Haven is the community and raiding. I love pretty much all you guys. I've been raiding with you since Mt. Hyjal back in TBC (Well, technically Gruul and maggie). I have done so, and you've remained the sole raiding guild I've stuck with solely because I love you all (cant be stated enough). But I want more from the guild.

I want us to be able to rely on each other for general support and guidance (as in spec assist, dealing with camping alliance, proff needs and so on). Much of this is fine, and it's more down to an individual thing, but some people do seem less inclined to go out of their way than others. That's fine. It's part of who they are, and it's not anyone's place to try and change that. But perhaps those people should ask what they want from a community guild if they're unwilling to actually be a part of it?

This is true of raiding, whereby we have some -wonderful- raiders (the ungodly Sass, the restless Woogle, and so on). we have had many people go through our doors and onto bigger guilds and accomplish all manner of things. Now that's a kicker, really.

People going through these doors and onto something bigger. If all those who'd gone through had stayed, we'd quite probably be the strongest Horde raiding guild on the server. That's not a lie or an overestimation. We have had some incredible people here. But then they leave. They get impatient. They want more, now.

What can we do to stop this? What possible way is there to keep these excellent raiders within our community? Is it because we're not hardcore, or because we're not the big name on the server? As said, we've fostered a lot of talent that has gone, and it's a shame. Is it a question of faith in the guild? Faith that they can reach their potential that would keep people here? Or is it a case of becoming a 'serious progress raiding guild'?

Communication is also a little errtic of late. Some will argue all manner of points but the fact remains /g is mostly very quiet, regardless of hour in the day, or month in the year.

One of the things as a 'raider' I'm aware of is that I'm not privvy to officer chat. As a normal player, I don't spend all my game hours on TS, so have no idea what's being discussed there, either. It leaves my one avenue of intel, which is to say /g, somewhat stark and barren of useful information.

My reasons for not speaking on TS have been mentioned before, but to reiterate the most basic one: This PC is in the living room. To talk on TS would be incredibly disruptive to the family. I can't move it elsewhere as I simply don't have the room.

I'm not saying give us all access to officer chat. That'd be pointless. But give us more snippets of information when they're asked for. even if to tell us off for being arses.

I will make this vow now. I intend to stay with this guild for all the time I am on World of Warcraft and raiding. I've never once seen you as a stepping stone, and nor do I want to leave a guild with so many awesome people. I want us to thrive, and accomplish what we -know- we can.

Please feel free to tear into this or generally argue with anything I've said and sounds retarded. It's what this is here for. It's to get things out in the open.

 

[Lideon]

Hey,

Firstly I would like to say that being primarily a community guild.. that progression does tend to take a back seat, when it comes to making sure that everyone who signed up or is willing to raid is able to. Thus this tends to annoy those who want to go for the hard-modes or whatever straight away. Now I'm not saying they are wrong for doing so but this is how I see it. (being a community guild first and foremost this is one aspect that I love about The Haven and besides just ask what happened in the past when we tried to go *hardcore*).

Secondly I would like to say that whilst /g is quiet sometimes, and it may be that TS sounds like where the majority of things happen, I would like to point out that to be on TS does not require you to speak.. (there is a reason why Elincia's nickname was the silent priest for a while). I would like to also say that I have never found that /g is quiet during times when there are lots of people online, there is always usually someone responding to a question or a request. It sometimes may take 5 minutes for a reply or it could be instant but usually I find that there is an answer from myself or another helpful person. Your point about those who are unwilling to help.. yes your right about that some people may be unwilling to help however I'm also willing to bet that it will depend on the mood of the person, as well as the question/want/need that's being asked.

I also do not understand/know what your requesting the officers tell you about. They are pretty forthcoming with answers to problems/questions that you may have (Sasser and Zooggy have been very helpful to me in the past and are amazing at those roles). Thus to me this eliminates the need to have access to this. As already I stated earlier that your problem with TS being that you do not wish to speak (which I understand your reasoning), and that you feel that all decisions are made through this form of communication rather than in game, all raiders are required to be on TS before and whilst they are raiding anyway thus your problem with decisions/raids being made during raid times whilst your not on TS is unfair to blame on others.

However problems that people have should be aired and I hope I have answered some of your queries. Shall wait for an actual officer now.

Lideon

 

[Zooggy]

Hey,

Ooooh, this is wonderful. This is lovely! First off, cookie for you for writing it.

Secondly, you can (re)read about what I want here. (Careful, though, the post is long.) The two top links in that post lead to our core principles and my essay on the meaning of Community, so check those out as well, if you care to. It's old(ish) stuff, but still 100% valid.

Now, some of the stuf you said:

some people do seem less inclined to go out of their way than others. That's fine. It's part of who they are, and it's not anyone's place to try and change that. But perhaps those people should ask what they want from a community guild if they're unwilling to actually be a part of it?

As long as someone's name shows up in brackets on the chat log often enough, people will recognize it and it will contribute to their feeling of "being home", which is ultimately what a community is all about. Being less actively helpful doesn't really make you less of a part of that.

In any case, this is always going to be true in any reasonably sized group. Trust me, you don't want to be in a group built of 50+ active people that all want to help, all the time. It would turn us into a freakish Mr. Rogers neighborhood, except that we would all be secretly harboring a desire to pick up a tire iron and randomly smash the head of the next person to link their Enchanting in /g...

Me, I really like our current mix.

People going through these doors and onto something bigger. If all those who'd gone through had stayed, we'd quite probably be the strongest Horde raiding guild on the server. That's not a lie or an overestimation. We have had some incredible people here. But then they leave. They get impatient. They want more, now.

What can we do to stop this?

I'm going to be honest with you, I don't want to stop this.

If people didn't leave on a more or less regular basis, we would be unable to get new people in. We would be unable to learn and grow. We would stagnate. We would more than likely fall apart.

I always get a bit of a pang in my heart whenever a liked and/or trusted member moves on to other pastures. If at all possible, I add them to my Friends list. (Some people have been there for a loooong time. I am priviledged to be able to wave hello to them every so often.) Ultimately, though, it's part of what keeps the guild alive. (Plus, it's all kinds of awesome when valued people find their way back to us! )

is it a case of becoming a 'serious progress raiding guild'?

In particular, I hope we don't go there. I trully feel that, right now, we're at the sweet spot between being too serious and being too laid back.

Thing is, wanderlust hits when it hits and there isn't much that can be done about it. So, even if we did move things in the direction whereby certain people would stop leaving, other would then start walking out. Yes, we have had a lot of people leave for more aggressive raiding guilds, but we've also had people leaving for quieter pastures as well. It's a balancing act, and one where we happen to be doing rather well, at the moment.

Also, for some people, leaving ultimately proves to be just the right move. There's a place for everyone, and while I might wish it so, The Haven won't be it for all WoW players. By the same token, I know people that have left only to realise they had made a dreadful mistake. Some have been able to come back, some haven't. I fought for the return of many of them, with varying degrees of success. I wish they had all made it back. Ultimately, though, whatever happened, it was a part of the guild's life process.

I will make this vow now. I intend to stay with this guild for all the time I am on World of Warcraft and raiding. I've never once seen you as a stepping stone, and nor do I want to leave a guild with so many awesome people.

You and me both, but it's always good to read this sort of thing. Ultimately, though, I recognize people's right to make of The Haven what they want. If it's a long-lasting home, so much the better. If they just want a place to cruise for a bit, then I count myself a richer man to have met them and to have played with them for whatever span of time they're around.

Communication is also a little errtic of late. Some will argue all manner of points but the fact remains /g is mostly very quiet, regardless of hour in the day, or month in the year.

Trust me when I say this, this is a cycle. I've been in the guild for well over three years, now. /g comes and goes, simple as that. I love that you miss it, though. Some times, I miss it too.

I'm not saying give us all access to officer chat. That'd be pointless. But give us more snippets of information when they're asked for. even if to tell us off for being arses.

As an officer, I can tell you that it always feels good to be called on something like this. (Being serious, here, no irony intended.) I'd ask if there's anything in particular that's missing, but somehow, that would feel a bit too specific for this thread... But, you can always start another thread, if there's specific questions you want to ask.

Please feel free to tear into this or generally argue with anything I've said and sounds retarded. It's what this is here for. It's to get things out in the open.

Again, I want to thank you for writing this. I totally know where you are coming from. It's great to see that you feel yourself as part of the core of the guild, and I want to assure you that I feel the same way. With or without a microphone, you'll always be welcome in my raids.

One question remains to be asked: are you going to come to the August meet?

Cheers,
J.

P.S. Cross-posted with Lideon, but I can't let this one slide:

being primarily a community guild [,] progression does tend to take a back seat, when it comes to making sure that everyone who signed up or is willing to raid is able to

This is wrong on two counts:

1) The Haven is not "primarily" a community guild. The Haven is a community, full stop. However, while raiding does not dictate the nature of the guild's identity, the raid crew is a sizeable part of that community.

2) Progression, as a raid-crew-only consideration, does not take a "back seat" to pretty much anything except the long term health of the guild itself. There have been plenty of cases where plenty of people have been left out of raids for the sake of the success of a particular raid group, me included.

Now, I can wax poetic for a fair amount of time about what it is that sets us apart from the more aggressive raiding guilds out there, and trust me, it's quite significant. This post is too long already, so, I'll leave that for a different one...

J.

 

[Belfa]

Much agreed Lid, I mean if you want some fun but dont really want to talk TS is the way. I mean the 1st hour I was in The Haven I joined TS and had a blast

Belfaa
Irish,Small But NOT a Leprachan

 

[Elincia]

there is a reason why Elincia's nickname was the silent priest for a while

Yarrr, and I am still quite sillent on ts I never liked to use it. And I don't feel you need to talk, listening while gaming gives you a lot of information

Also checking the forum and GMotD helps alot. And ask anything in /g if you feel you missed something. It will always get an answer from me ( as long as I am online and know the answer ofc )

Whispering is also an option, I will ALWAYS answer a whisper and I know Sass, Zooggy and Nactall do that too

 

[Ashya]

tl;ra;na

(Too long, read anyway; need aspirin)

But yeah, agree with all the above, except the things I don't agree with.

 

[Huung]

Also checking the...GMotD helps alot. )

Unless something seriously changed since I left, you can't be serious...

That thing is useful about once a fortnight, the rest of the time it's used as it should be - to mock Woogle/Baldi/etc

 

[SwampFae]

Long good post was a good read. You deserve a cookie for it
Agree a lot with long reply as well

As for teamspeak: I wasn't talking on teamspeak for a LONG time. And as far as I am concerned, talking on teamspeak shouldn't be something we must do. Simply listening in can be fun at times as well

 

[Zaggu]

Bless you for having decided not to speak on TS when we had the Disastrous Kara Raid That Should Not Be... I know *I* should have decided the same that day!

As for the topic, I agree with Z, and I'm quite happy in the guild due to its wacky and friendly nature. I've made actual friends in game since I've started, many of which are or were in The Haven.

 

[Lyranne]

There's not actually any specific piece of information I wish to have shared, more that sometimes the communication is very subdued and people start to get irate in /g because they don't know what's happening.

I reiterate that I don't spend time on TS because of where this PC is. Being antisocial and playing a game is one thing: Being antisocial with headphones on so you can't hear what anyone around you has asked is another. This won't change for me for the forseeable future simply because the situation it arises from is not likely to change.

My point about some people not really helping is more when people ask in /g for an instance run, or general assistance, and are met with silence. They'll ask again and end up having to PuG. The next person asks, no response, and so end up in a PuG. As a community I feel we should be doing instances together. Get to know each other and be around those we trust when experimenting/learning the ropes. Heroics have always served as (for me) a great learning curve. less so now that really good gear's so easy to get, but there's still a lot that can be gained from them (and nothing is more demoralising that PuG tanking and having some idiot dps complain about your tanking, or blame the healer for not healing -them- through the whirlwind they decided to stay in).

This is also true of 25-man raids. Perhaps we don't have enough 'core' raiders to do this often, but I'm sure we could generate more interest in this and it's again a shame that so many are having to PuG, and not see beyond the first four bosses. I'm aware it's not an easy thing to pull together, and also that apathy can play a huge part sometimes, but it's still something worth looking into. If we're a semi-casual raiding guild, than wipes shouldn't even bother us, which means -any- attempts are productive so long as they're fun. If we're a more serious guild, than again, attempts are at least forward progress.

For me, as a semi-serious raider, I want to raid solely with people I trust (and I have trust issues, so it's not something like I can PuG and trust everyone implicitely). It saddens me a little whenever there's a falling through of a raiding plan, no matter how temporary the situation is.

In regards to people leaving, it's more that sometimes it's good for all parties involved, and other times, it feels like we've lost something altogether greater than just another raider. Obviously there's no ideal way to resolve this, but I think it would benefit the guild in the long term if those who're at home within the haven -and- want to raid don't feel they need to move on. Maybe they could do what I've done here, rather than just leave, or even just randomly pout and sulk all day. It's just a shame to see people leave with a main, and leave their 'alt' as a 'Haven main'. That's the part that gets to me the most. They love us enough to stay, but only so far as to be gearing a new character. Others keep al theirs in the guild (Raz, Woogle, and a fair few others have switched mains, but kept their old ones withiin the Haven fold).

I don't hold anything against people wishing for personal progress and those who strive to continue facing new challenges, just that it's always a sad departure (for the most part). I am also not in a position to know why a person leaves, as again, I'm just a raider. I see one of our best geared leave the guild, and it always feels like a blow. They might explain it to officers and veterans, but us grunts are given little (though I get the feeling sometimes even officers and veterans aren't told anything).

Regarding the meetup, I've no idea yet if I'll be able to go or not. I have to use the dreaded London Underground to get to Lincoln, which I really loathe. I also don't know that I'll have the money anyway. I hope to, but I really can't be sure.

anyway, keep the responses coming. If people think I'm needlessly sniping, or whathaveyou, then please say so. I want this to be as constructive as possible, after all.

 

[Priam]

Well, what can I say. The Haven is the first guild that's actually fun to be in since Vendetta (also SSL) 3 years ago. And that's compared to guilds on 7?! servers i've been on.

It's also amazing how i'm still in the guild as a trial, while not having joined any raid yet and having been AFK for like a month.

 

[Windzarko]

It's also amazing how i'm still in the guild as a trial, while not having joined any raid yet and having been AFK for like a month.

Yeah, we don't quick people too quickly for mere absences; stuff happens IRL, and we're not going to come down heavily on people just because they had to take an impromptu fortnight or more off. It's only extremely long unannounced absences that goad us into contemplating discussing the idea of some variety of planning some action, and people that do get dropped due to long absence can get right back in when they return, so it's never a biggie.


Onto the topic of the post; I joined this guild when it was a much smaller group, largely comprising of a nutty bunch of THN'ers like Haven, Duren, Tbone, Bexx, Nanor, Thatbloke and others, and despite entering into that, I never really felt like the odd-one-out. To the contrary, my own brand of insanity seemed to fit in well enough that Secord and myself were the first two put up to the new uber-officer rank when it was first made. Whilst I've had characters elsewhere over the years, two of them even (briefly) being guilded with groups entirely unassociated with The Haven, this is the only guild that's felt like home, and I never want that to change.

What I personally want is to keep our friendship and community going. But what I also want is for us to take our raiding a little more seriously. I'm not talking about taking it super-hardcore seriously; those of you who know me should by now know how I feel about such things as opt-in rotating raid schedules and stuff like DKP-esque systems and all that jizz. I also don't approve of some of the crap I've heard of raid guilds putting some of their members through (I remember Haven mentioning NE making some of their raiders spend over an hour practicing running in a direction when called to... just... no.). But when we raid the latest content, I like to try and take it at least seriously enough that we aren't provoking wipe-fests and won't erode peoples' high spirits.

I like to have fun when raiding, I like my guildies to have fun when raiding. And I think that success lends heavily to that, so it's what I want more of, whether or not I'm a part of it (yes, it's not just a quest for personal glory; I'll sit out of raids if it means they have a better chance of success, for example). I like to see people doing well in their chosen roles and getting the chance to have a bit of a boast about their personal performance.

M'yeah... I could say more, but I'm out of food and my stomach is attempting to lead my lungs in open rebellion against my brain, so I'd best go shopping to placate them...

 

[Burrick]

Im getting a big sense of de-ja vu here

 

[Sabbath]

Onto the point of this thread witch i presume was started because of mine and garths post recently.

The Haven is mine and garths second guild and we decided to join The Haven about a year and abit ago because the previous guild we was in had no organisation and no meaning, it was just a guild to level a character with near to none raiding.

We joined this guild in the intention of raiding and having fun at the same time, in doing so we have met some awesome people and enjoyed raiding with you everyone of you. But being a 'community guild' people are not as serious about raiding as garth and i have become to be, because when we first joined it was our first time actually doing raids as we were kinda new to the game back then.

However what garth and i are looking for is to progress though all of the content blizzard has for us not just in 10 man raiding but in 25 man raiding, because at the moment we are having to pug ICC 25 man in witch we only just manage to do the first 4 bosses what is very frustrating at times and in 10 man im not botherd about killing the lich king, yes obviously it would be nice don't get me wrong. Having said that by The Haven being a community guild the progression in the 10 man raiding is not consistent every week and im sure some raiders feel the same.

So there are our reasons for wanting to join a more serious raiding guild if you like, it's nothing to do with the people in the haven as i have stated before we enjoy it here as a community.

By posting what we did on the form showed respect to the haven, because we could of been thoughtless and said bye we are off and removed all out chars out of the guild, but instead we posted on the forum letting officers and members know in respect. I did say we were going to leave our alts in the guild, i mean after all it is a community guild right? And by some members saying we are just using the haven as a stepping stone annoys me, we didn't decide to join the have and think we will use these to gear up then leave.

We make one post about joining a serious raiding guild and all a few people are saying is, they were just using us blah blah blah, its not right.

We have had some incredible people here. But then they leave. They get impatient. They want more, now.

What do you mean by impatient, as there is nothing to be patient about, people leave because they what more serious raiding, and as the haven aint a serious raiding guild it's not going to happen so therefore by saying people get impatient is incorrect, but thats just my opinion.

I've never once seen you as a stepping stone

Saying this implies that you think that everyone who leaves for more hardcore progression uses the haven as a stepping stone

Maybe they could do what I've done here, rather than just leave, or even just randomly pout and sulk all day. It's just a shame to see people leave with a main, and leave their 'alt' as a 'Haven main'. That's the part that gets to me the most. They love us enough to stay, but only so far as to be gearing a new character

What is the havens main purpose, raiding or not? by saying this again implies that the haven are a raiding guild and not a community guild, it seems to me that some people like to think of the haven as a community/serious raiding guild, i have said that i would leave all my alts in to still be apart of the haven by casually raiding, i mean my alt tank is like 9th best geared and 2 best geared tank in the guild? So its not all that of i will leave my alts in the guild to gear up.

Just gets me why a few people are saying that we are using haven as a stepping stone.

/Rant over

Feel free to reply and agree/disagree

Sabbath

 

[Zooggy]

Hoy,

Im getting a big sense of de-ja vu here

Links, or it didn't happen...!

Anyway:

Onto the point of this thread witch i presume was started because of mine and garths post recently.

While I have no doubts that it played its part, I seriously doubt it was the sole, or even the root cause for the OP. I've felt that twinge of pain Lonny was talking about, many times now, over my two-plus-year career as a Haven officer. And, yes, with the two of you as well. But, fact of the matter is, you weren't the first and you won't be the last.

We do tend to over-rate our role in the events that transpire around us. It's a rather healthy part of being human. Fact is, though, it's not always (just) about us.

i have said that i would leave all my alts in to still be apart of the haven by casually raiding, i mean my alt tank is like 9th best geared and 2 best geared tank in the guild? So its not all that of i will leave my alts in the guild to gear up.

Yes, I am indeed counting on Drifts to pick up the tanking slack here and there, when needed.

And, naturally, should the two of you find that the hard core guilds out there aren't home for you, just put up a return application and we'll take it from there.

Just gets me why a few people are saying that we are using haven as a stepping stone.

Dude. Chill and go read the original post again. She wasn't accusing you directly, and you know it.

By posting what we did on the form showed respect to the haven

For the record, I agree.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Lyranne]

first off I'd not read about you and Garth leaving until after I had written this. As the Zoog-man sayeth, it's something that happens alot. I was not targeting any particular people, just airing what is, to me, a sad thing. Some do leave because they want more serious raiding. I want more serious raiding. I choose to stay because the community feel is important. I have alts in other guilds but feel that this is my raiding home. I can sympathise with people leaving through lack of progress, just as I can empathise with those that nerdrage when someone calls this a raiding guild.

I came into the Haven after a very long time on the outskirts where I was picked up from obscurity (Lyranne was a Holydin in an RP guild, and somehow I gained a reputation; though I swear it was consensual) and got to tag along to Gruul, Magtheridon, Mt. Hyjal, BT, and the occasional Kara run. I fell in love with the atmosphere very early on, which is why it saddnes me to see the guild sometimes appear as though it's losing its grasp on what makes it so good. for every person that leaves with a main and keeps an alt, there's at least one that's gone forever.

My point has always been that as a community we should be doing things together. It's what makes Haven runs special. even the failtacular ones (and boy have there been some of them) at least have the pleasure of being more enjoyable than most other runs I've ever been on (on large scale raiding, certainly). The only other guilds I hold a soft spot for raiding with other than you are the Greywolf Tribe (R.I.P) and the Ashen Order. Two casual raiding guilds, that were predominantly rp (in the latters case, very strong in pve even now, and amazing community, sans a few oddballs - but then that's true all over).

The only reason I bring up what the guild is about is because I want it to be the compromise as much as the officers do. I want us to be on that edge between friends and nutters. But with that I want us to stretch a little further each way. I think we can. The communhity spirit is very high, and I am sure we can muster some of that into achieveing a great deal.

Note that though I use the word 'compromise' I in no way mean it as a dirty word. Comrpomise is oftentimes misconstrued as 'letting the other person have their way'. It's not. It's the middle ground. It's where the Haven should be, and where those of us within it should expect it to be.

And so to reiterate, I was not targeting you, Sabbath, or Garth. Just know that as Zoog said, it's happened a lot and will happen again, and some won't have the curtesy to post a thread, some won't have the decency to explain anything, and some... some will leave and never be seen again. That's what saddens me.

 

[Gidean]

i must say for such a wel spoken thred i find myslf slightly confused just what your actually asking for 'the haven' to change??
if someone in real life moves to another country to work u may never se them again but u can 'choose' to stay in contact with them or not.
If someone leaves to open up there options then its there 'choice' but we have specified what te haven will and wont become so that wont change! if u mis people that leavei sugest u stay in contact with them and if u want to ad even more depth to your experience with us then i sugest u try changing yor own situation and join the conversations on ts, thrs enjoying hearing us ten trs just vouyerism, i would enjoy u being on ts as im sure we al would but if u r unwiling to change or adjust then i find it slightly hypocrytical to ask it of a guild that isnt brocken by my standerds.

 

[Razaak]

Gidean's post offends my eyes, although I think there's some valid points hidden in the txt tlk... lemme break out the Google Translator and see if it can make some sense

 

[Gidean]

lol sorry i wrote that wen i should have been working and on my phone at insainly small text vision so i apologise for the awfull grammer, but like Raz said i think the message is still clear.

 

[Angelic]

I dont think Lonny was being hypocritical by suggesting (as I understand it and in my own words) that some of the conversation moves from TS to /g to liven up the guild and make it more accessible and helpful/friendly to everyone, not just "the TS gang". That, I feel, is a quite valid suggestion which I myself would back up if it mattered any.

Real post later if ever, now on my phone.