General Moaning
- Thread starter Pwnstar
- Start date
Hey
@ Sabbath.. it depends on the instance...
For example in heroics and raids with trash I won't look at overall damage as that is generally an AOE fest and as a result the numbers are somewhat bloated...
However in places such as TOC where there is little or next to no trash mobs, then I will tend to look at overall dps aswell as individual fights to help discern consistency of said players.
Lideon
@ Sabbath.. it depends on the instance...
For example in heroics and raids with trash I won't look at overall damage as that is generally an AOE fest and as a result the numbers are somewhat bloated...
However in places such as TOC where there is little or next to no trash mobs, then I will tend to look at overall dps aswell as individual fights to help discern consistency of said players.
Lideon
thatbloke
Junior Administrator
Things I think about to tell if we think someone should be doing better:
Contrary to popular belief (I f**cking hate Gearscore):
Skill > Experience >>>> Gear
DPS, HPS and TPS, while useful as a metric, is not the be-all and end-all of how good a player is, despite what some people would have you believe. I'd rather we had someone with a constant 3k DPS that stays alive for a whole fight and does the right thing at the right time rather than someone who can do 6k DPS but dies a third of the way into the fight because they were too busy concentrating on making massive numbers pop up on their screen instead of paying attention to the mechanics of a particular fight.
Although for some encounters, particularly with the newer content, it could certainly be said that you need to have a better minimum standard for your gear, a player's skill can make up for alot of that deficit. The skill will come with the experience. Perhaps one of our major problems is getting people that experience?
You will also notice a trend with the above points - pretty much every single one of them comes down to a lack of communication at some point. We can rage in private as much as we like about people who we think are underperforming, but if that's no good if we don't actually tell people we think they could be doing better.
- Are they always dying? Why?
- Are they standing in the blue stuff when they shouldn't be?
- Are they in the right place at the right time?
- Did they get De-cursed in time?
- Did the person receive enough healing?
- Did they require help with something but not notify anyone?
- Points 1 and 2 are about situational awareness. 3 and 4 you could go about blaming the healers but then why wasn't the person telling anyone in the first place? (point 5)
- Things can and do go wrong - how do people deal with it when things go wrong? Alot of situations are recoverable, some aren't.
- If the character is a DPS, are they doing a reasonable amount of damage, considering their role in the fight?
- Bear in mind some fights allow some DPS characters to do more/less damage depending on the circumstances, e.g. constantly having to move around.
- If not, what can we do to help people who we feel are underperforming? Remember we need to tell them we think they should be doing better and then offering them help with how we think they can be doing better.
- Also remember it's a learning exercise - if the people point blankly refuse any advice we want to be giving them, then do we really want to play with these people?
- If the character is a healer, are the people they are responsible for healing staying alive? If not, why not?
- Is the healer in question using the right spells for the right situation?
- Are they somehow being prevented from casting due to a mechanic of the fight?
- If they require help with healing, why are they not telling anyone?
- If the character is a tank, are they holding aggro correctly? Is what they are supposed to be tanking running away all the time?
- If they are not generating enough threat, is that perhaps because they are not using their threat generating abilities as well as they could be?
- Is there instead some mechanic of the fight that is causing this, and the rest of the group is not dealing with it correctly?
- Are there DPS characters that are generating too much aggro too quickly? This particularly applies to any adds that a boss may use.
Contrary to popular belief (I f**cking hate Gearscore):
Skill > Experience >>>> Gear
DPS, HPS and TPS, while useful as a metric, is not the be-all and end-all of how good a player is, despite what some people would have you believe. I'd rather we had someone with a constant 3k DPS that stays alive for a whole fight and does the right thing at the right time rather than someone who can do 6k DPS but dies a third of the way into the fight because they were too busy concentrating on making massive numbers pop up on their screen instead of paying attention to the mechanics of a particular fight.
Although for some encounters, particularly with the newer content, it could certainly be said that you need to have a better minimum standard for your gear, a player's skill can make up for alot of that deficit. The skill will come with the experience. Perhaps one of our major problems is getting people that experience?
You will also notice a trend with the above points - pretty much every single one of them comes down to a lack of communication at some point. We can rage in private as much as we like about people who we think are underperforming, but if that's no good if we don't actually tell people we think they could be doing better.
Huung
Well-Known Member
The whole "skill > experience > gear" thing does work.... but there isn't a massive difference between their usefulness. Experience is just as easy to gain as gear, and skill will come with experience, so they're all linked, and all will increase proportionally with your playtime/reading time.
As an example, Itchi is now *technically* the best geared tank in the guild; I in no way consider myself to be the best tank however, as he's an alt, and I've only ever done 2 ICC10s, a ToC25, an Ony10 and 2 Naxx10 runs. Apart from those Naxx runs, and the Ony run, all of those raids have been done in the last month.
The gear is very much readily available via heroics now, and whilst I must admit I was grinding the hell out of them to help Janco gear up, we only spent a week or so doing a couple of hours a night, and Itchi was geared to how he is now. I've hardly spent any time on Huung since 3.3, and yet his main spec is almost as geared as it can be via triumph (bar things like crafted bracers).
My point is that even with a lack of experience, being overgeared to the back teeth for the instances we're doing makes up for it in the short term, until the experience can be gained - especially if the raid includes people who are experienced in their classes. I'm not saying carry people through, but I'd like to think I'm not a total nab when on the tankybear.
As an example, Itchi is now *technically* the best geared tank in the guild; I in no way consider myself to be the best tank however, as he's an alt, and I've only ever done 2 ICC10s, a ToC25, an Ony10 and 2 Naxx10 runs. Apart from those Naxx runs, and the Ony run, all of those raids have been done in the last month.
The gear is very much readily available via heroics now, and whilst I must admit I was grinding the hell out of them to help Janco gear up, we only spent a week or so doing a couple of hours a night, and Itchi was geared to how he is now. I've hardly spent any time on Huung since 3.3, and yet his main spec is almost as geared as it can be via triumph (bar things like crafted bracers).
My point is that even with a lack of experience, being overgeared to the back teeth for the instances we're doing makes up for it in the short term, until the experience can be gained - especially if the raid includes people who are experienced in their classes. I'm not saying carry people through, but I'd like to think I'm not a total nab when on the tankybear.
Skcornnelg
Member
I think this thread is going around in circles. We could debate forever but I think most people will have a difference of opinion in how they see the way the game* should be played.
I think its funny because I think Sabbath only meant his post of the screenie to be some light-hearted banter.
*You just lost.
I think its funny because I think Sabbath only meant his post of the screenie to be some light-hearted banter.
*You just lost.
thatbloke
Junior Administrator
It's amazing how things go
Perhaps they should be in a different thread but the points are still valid
Skcornnelg
Member
Hmmm, I seem to think alot. Thanks for quoting me Bloke before I had a chance to edit, lol
Burrick
Member
Well to be honest itchi i agree with you totally .. i have not been 80 for very long on janco but i am already pretty well geared including 3 bits of 251 and 1 264... mostly geared as you say through the heroics we done together..
I am really enjoying playing janco and mr b has been put on the shelf for the fore seeable future.. i love learning this class and like to think im really getting it (and hopefully) getting it right
I am really enjoying playing janco and mr b has been put on the shelf for the fore seeable future.. i love learning this class and like to think im really getting it (and hopefully) getting it right
Sabbath
In Cryo Sleep
Yeah that's all it was lol, no i dont think im best dps far from it, just thought it would be a lil bit of fun using Sabots quote do better, i was wrong
I reckon it's a bit of a balance really since being dps is about more than just slamming out damage. How often do you lose damage or a GCD from interrupting a cast or dispelling a buff/debuff? Obviously, some times it's not worth the hassle because the spell is trivial or the healers are already bored etc..
my point is that I reckon dps tables are a black and white thing ultimately; you either collectively do enough dps for the fight or you don't. It's only in the latter case that it even matters and even then the only real relevance is to determine if the problem was gear or technique.
my point is that I reckon dps tables are a black and white thing ultimately; you either collectively do enough dps for the fight or you don't. It's only in the latter case that it even matters and even then the only real relevance is to determine if the problem was gear or technique.
Pwnstar
Member
just thought it would be a lil bit of fun using Sabots quote do better, i was wrong
My bad on that one, still started some good old converastion didn't it. Swings & roundabouts xD
Nactall
New Member
Lols Sab,
dont be worried about it, we al had our laugh about it against Sabot and where just taking it to a higher lvl and debate over it.
Please everyone that manages to do better then Sabot post it on the forum, notify the fight and day and display a picture of a weeping Sabot
Nactall out.
dont be worried about it, we al had our laugh about it against Sabot and where just taking it to a higher lvl and debate over it.
Please everyone that manages to do better then Sabot post it on the forum, notify the fight and day and display a picture of a weeping Sabot
Nactall out.
thatbloke
Junior Administrator
Lols Sab,
dont be worried about it, we al had our laugh about it against Sabot and where just taking it to a higher lvl and debate over it.
Please everyone that manages to do better then Sabot post it on the forum, notify the fight and day and display a picture of a weeping Sabot
Nactall out.
This
Windzarko
Well-Known Member
Which one? There are several appropriates...
"I find your lack of faith disturbing" would work for them believing they can so easily beat you.
"Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." to aspiring new DPSers in need of a few pointers.
"Noooooooooooooooooooo!" for when you want to either express displeasure or indicate that you have a desire to convey that George Lucas, despite trying his best, perhaps isn't the best person at bringing dramatic tension to a suitable climax.
(and yes, I'm ragging on George Lucas, but you know what? I'm allowed to, I'm a Star Wars fanboy!
)
Sasser
New Member
Please everyone that manages to do better then Sabot post it on the forum, notify the fight and day and display a picture of a weeping Sabot
I don't have time for this