Raiding days?
- Thread starter Burrick
- Start date
thatbloke
Junior Administrator
I'd say its the latter atm.
Huung
Well-Known Member
Well, not only do you have to be online, you have to be on TS, as most raids now seem to be organised via TS, and if you're not around, you'll miss out.
Good to see ICC first wing was done Wednesday this week, considering Wednesday isn't even meant to be a raiding day at all
Good to see ICC first wing was done Wednesday this week, considering Wednesday isn't even meant to be a raiding day at all
Razaak
Well-Known Member
Well, frankly, it's bit fucking difficult to organise raids in advance when no-one signs up.
Friday - 10 people signed up to raid.
Saturday - 5 people signed up to raid.
Monday - ONE person signed up to raid.
That's from the events calendar as it currently stands.
You can't have it both ways. We recruited people with a specific raiding calendar in mind, and included it on the application and guild info, but we have people not turning up, not signing up.
We have raider ranked people organising their own PUGs for progression content, thus locking them out.
We have people unwilling to swap characters and hindering progress because they don't want to get locked to a partially cleared raid.
In view of this, is it any surprise that people are reluctant to organise raids?
On the other side of the coin, progression raids will only contain people capable of making progress. If that means taking a more capable player who's online ahead of someone less capable that signed up, then so be it.
Anyway, watch this space for more info after tonight's officers meeting.
Friday - 10 people signed up to raid.
Saturday - 5 people signed up to raid.
Monday - ONE person signed up to raid.
That's from the events calendar as it currently stands.
You can't have it both ways. We recruited people with a specific raiding calendar in mind, and included it on the application and guild info, but we have people not turning up, not signing up.
We have raider ranked people organising their own PUGs for progression content, thus locking them out.
We have people unwilling to swap characters and hindering progress because they don't want to get locked to a partially cleared raid.
In view of this, is it any surprise that people are reluctant to organise raids?
On the other side of the coin, progression raids will only contain people capable of making progress. If that means taking a more capable player who's online ahead of someone less capable that signed up, then so be it.
Anyway, watch this space for more info after tonight's officers meeting.
Huung
Well-Known Member
Repeat offenders black marked. 3 marks = demotion to trial raider rank.
Same as above.
People should be raiding on their main character for progression raids, with exceptions made to make the raid work (ie. tanks or healers needed). People have too much free choice atm to change who their main is totally at will, this needs to be clamped down on, and we need to be stricter on stopping people from bringing alts because they've locked their main to a non-Haven raid etc.
No, but the lack of officers other than yourself (and occasionally Zoog) ever being online at raid start time is largely to blame for this. I also feel it's still no excuse to form an ICC raid on a non-raid day, especially without prior notice.
Once again, agreed. My issue lately hasn't been who has been taken, but when the raids have occurred.
Just my thoughts on things as of late. Feel free to chuck them into the pot in the meeting.
Burrick
Member
This is what was bugging me to tbh seeing as i have family stuff (kayleigh) to consider i need to plan my raid evenings as me and kirsty most times take turns on sorting her out and getting her to bed.. I have no problem with normal raids going on any day ..
but progression raids i think should have notice on them as these are the ones that really matter and non-progression raids can be sorted anytime...
Also i have signed up as a yes for nearly every raid in the past 2 weeks and have been on time and ready.... so why cant other people???
Ahey,
While these are valid suggestions, a balance must be struck between wanting to progress steadily at all costs and maintaining the culture and identity of our raiding crew.
While culture can (and some times should) be changed, it is something to be done with some care and attention to possible unintended consequences.
Again, like Raz said, watch this space.
Cheers,
J.
While these are valid suggestions, a balance must be struck between wanting to progress steadily at all costs and maintaining the culture and identity of our raiding crew.
While culture can (and some times should) be changed, it is something to be done with some care and attention to possible unintended consequences.
Again, like Raz said, watch this space.
Cheers,
J.
Lyranne
New Member
This all seems a bit of a mess to be honest. I myself have the double luxury of not speaking on TS and having an ISP that bottleneck my browsing to such a degree I don't know if I can get to any sites one minute from the next, let alone day.
That is partly why I don't always sign up, the other being that I have something else on my mind or else have ended up severely distracted.
I can understand setting raids up via TS to a degree, but tonight someone who hadn't signed up got in because they were on TS at the right time? Which takes priority? As with many, I don't mind not going, and with my track record for signups, I can't say I can argue with being overlooked/sidelined/whathaveyou, but for those who're signing up regularly, it's hardly just to give someone else a spot.
I'd also suggest that the message of the day be reverted to something people can't ignore, rather than some random quote that contributes nothing. You want people to sign up, ram it down their throats.
with regards to alts/mains and so forth, and switching to aid progress, this brings to mind an older conversation regarding how alts are prioritised. Without the aid of ICC, I have five characters geared for it, albeit all as dps rather than anything else. The reasons for the are two-fold: One, I tend to end up with nightmare PuGs and as I'm sure many know, tanking one can be a thankless task. Healing's not dissimilar, and at least two of my characters can pull their weight in this department. However, if I'm required to play on one character over another, or else a differing spec, I'd appreciate more time to prepare, not have it asked at the moment the raid's about to start. I can understand that this is probably only the situation because people have backed out, but as Huung suggest. Black mark people, or else guild kick, have a go or whatever.
I know some of this may come across as an incoherent rant, and possibly even hypocritical, but that's usually the case with walls of text that haven't even been proof-read.
That is partly why I don't always sign up, the other being that I have something else on my mind or else have ended up severely distracted.
I can understand setting raids up via TS to a degree, but tonight someone who hadn't signed up got in because they were on TS at the right time? Which takes priority? As with many, I don't mind not going, and with my track record for signups, I can't say I can argue with being overlooked/sidelined/whathaveyou, but for those who're signing up regularly, it's hardly just to give someone else a spot.
I'd also suggest that the message of the day be reverted to something people can't ignore, rather than some random quote that contributes nothing. You want people to sign up, ram it down their throats.
with regards to alts/mains and so forth, and switching to aid progress, this brings to mind an older conversation regarding how alts are prioritised. Without the aid of ICC, I have five characters geared for it, albeit all as dps rather than anything else. The reasons for the are two-fold: One, I tend to end up with nightmare PuGs and as I'm sure many know, tanking one can be a thankless task. Healing's not dissimilar, and at least two of my characters can pull their weight in this department. However, if I'm required to play on one character over another, or else a differing spec, I'd appreciate more time to prepare, not have it asked at the moment the raid's about to start. I can understand that this is probably only the situation because people have backed out, but as Huung suggest. Black mark people, or else guild kick, have a go or whatever.
I know some of this may come across as an incoherent rant, and possibly even hypocritical, but that's usually the case with walls of text that haven't even been proof-read.
thatbloke
Junior Administrator
Feedback, no matter how ranting it may seem, is good.
I have tried in the past to pre-organise raids at the latest a few hours before the event itself, though where possible the night before.
It never worked as too many people just didnt show up after I put them into the group. It had its pros and cons, like, for instance, stating in advance that there was not enough of a certain role to fill a group, which gave people time to say "ok I have this alt I can bring" - but in the end even that was no good because too many people just never showed up and that made the whole thing fall apart and we'd have to re-organise on the night and at the time anyway.
It also led to people moaning that there is no event on even if it was cancelled in advance - so people would then sort something small out on their own and then people who didnt show up because we called it off moaned because something did actually happen in the end.
In other words, we can't please everyone.
Yeah I was the unsigned person, I wasnt supposed to be raiding tonight but the thought behind it was that I was locked to the raid that had reached Saurfang and it wasn't going to be nice to lock someone else to a fight we possibly cannot do (its currently bugged and blizzard have acknowledged this). It turned out we can't do it in its current iteration anyway.
That being said I'm always happy to step aside if I have not signed up, for someone who has as long as the raid is able to still function.
Hopefully things will be smoother here on in.
That being said I'm always happy to step aside if I have not signed up, for someone who has as long as the raid is able to still function.
Hopefully things will be smoother here on in.
Enya
Member
Personally I think that we must just cut the BS and come up with some "hardcore raiding" solution. I think there are other people like me (or at least I hope there is) that think that this community thing will never work if the guild or part of the guild is willing to progress.
I have been now in the 2nd wing of ICC 10 with the guild for at least 4 times maybe more and downed nothing, I am not saying it was a waste of time, or that I am better than the rest of you, but come one its like we are mashing our heads into the wall.
So what I am hoping for is a "radical" solution. Like now we have hard modes and people where chosen beforehand. That is a nice start. Maybe if the team successfully clears ToGC10 or at least downs few bosses we can start farming it, get geared and also someday clear ICC10. Maybe there must simply be a "elite team of players" and the rest, well the rest is the rest... if you get my drift.
And yes I know that some people are not going to like this. But you know what, life sucks and if you want clear ICC10/25 and ToGC10/25 you better get geared, learn your class and learn tactics do whatever is required of you.
Just become a more "hardcore gamer" this dose not mean that you must sit all the time and play the game and not have a life. Just know what you are doing. And when/if we get more people that are on time for raid invites there is even a possibility of a 25man raid. But for now I think clearing ICC10 and ToGC10 is 1st on our list.
Bottom line is that this mix of community, alts, raiders and people who want to do the "hard ones" is not going to work. What we need is change. Change that probaly will effect the community side of the guild badly.
I have been now in the 2nd wing of ICC 10 with the guild for at least 4 times maybe more and downed nothing, I am not saying it was a waste of time, or that I am better than the rest of you, but come one its like we are mashing our heads into the wall.
So what I am hoping for is a "radical" solution. Like now we have hard modes and people where chosen beforehand. That is a nice start. Maybe if the team successfully clears ToGC10 or at least downs few bosses we can start farming it, get geared and also someday clear ICC10. Maybe there must simply be a "elite team of players" and the rest, well the rest is the rest... if you get my drift.
And yes I know that some people are not going to like this. But you know what, life sucks and if you want clear ICC10/25 and ToGC10/25 you better get geared, learn your class and learn tactics do whatever is required of you.
Just become a more "hardcore gamer" this dose not mean that you must sit all the time and play the game and not have a life. Just know what you are doing. And when/if we get more people that are on time for raid invites there is even a possibility of a 25man raid. But for now I think clearing ICC10 and ToGC10 is 1st on our list.
Bottom line is that this mix of community, alts, raiders and people who want to do the "hard ones" is not going to work. What we need is change. Change that probaly will effect the community side of the guild badly.
Hey
Not having a mic leads to not speaking up often, but I thought I'd offer my 2 cents....
Personally I think we can retain the 'community' essence of the guild, it worked during BC and for the 1 year and 4 months ive been a part of The Haven its been extremely enjoyable place to be, with amazing people to play with. However, I agree that if we want to progress when the clock hits 6.30pm (or whatever is deemed to be raid start on the forums) a raid is formed of Raiders or Trials. It's not fair for us to expect 'Community' members to step in and attempt to perform to our standards, e.g dodging Icehowl's Glasgow kiss. And it's also unfair for people who specifically enjoy the raiding part of the game (Hence making the commitment to sign up / turn up) to lose out on loot upgrades to people who may not be raiding again or not at least soon...leading to regular Raiders not being upgraded and progression not happening. (It sounds harsh, and it hasn't personally happened to me, but if people are calling for progression it might need to be done)
However, part of being a 'Raider' is to live up to those expectations: signing up, showing up and doing your best.... (it's on the contract....somewhere after soul ownership and before Raz's signature). So if we don't have enough Raiders to put together what we need, then more recruitment or promotions for those community members who want to join, is needed.
Part of being a community member might include being able to join into raids if theres a numbers shortage, but then what use would the Raider rank be if anyone who is about at the time can step in? My feeling is a clear line needs to be drawn between the two, not to split the guild in half and shun the community members, not at all, but when 6.30pm comes around we need to put our best foot forward.
I'm mainly talking about 25mans here, since 10mans wont really involve anything but our best....but I'm averagely geared compared to other raiders and I know of at least 4 gear upgrades in Toc25, plus the trophies for each of my 4 Tier9 pieces.....so Im absolutely sure ToGC/Toc25 progress will definately lead to ICC10 progress. So if we are banging our heads against the second wing in ICC then more difficult raids of the Toc variety will be needed.
Erm.....well now that I see my thoughts down here there might be a useful point in there somewhere, hopefully you can pick out something that makes sense.....and if not then TL;DR
Not having a mic leads to not speaking up often, but I thought I'd offer my 2 cents....
Personally I think we can retain the 'community' essence of the guild, it worked during BC and for the 1 year and 4 months ive been a part of The Haven its been extremely enjoyable place to be, with amazing people to play with. However, I agree that if we want to progress when the clock hits 6.30pm (or whatever is deemed to be raid start on the forums) a raid is formed of Raiders or Trials. It's not fair for us to expect 'Community' members to step in and attempt to perform to our standards, e.g dodging Icehowl's Glasgow kiss. And it's also unfair for people who specifically enjoy the raiding part of the game (Hence making the commitment to sign up / turn up) to lose out on loot upgrades to people who may not be raiding again or not at least soon...leading to regular Raiders not being upgraded and progression not happening. (It sounds harsh, and it hasn't personally happened to me, but if people are calling for progression it might need to be done)
However, part of being a 'Raider' is to live up to those expectations: signing up, showing up and doing your best.... (it's on the contract....somewhere after soul ownership and before Raz's signature). So if we don't have enough Raiders to put together what we need, then more recruitment or promotions for those community members who want to join, is needed.
Part of being a community member might include being able to join into raids if theres a numbers shortage, but then what use would the Raider rank be if anyone who is about at the time can step in? My feeling is a clear line needs to be drawn between the two, not to split the guild in half and shun the community members, not at all, but when 6.30pm comes around we need to put our best foot forward.
I'm mainly talking about 25mans here, since 10mans wont really involve anything but our best....but I'm averagely geared compared to other raiders and I know of at least 4 gear upgrades in Toc25, plus the trophies for each of my 4 Tier9 pieces.....so Im absolutely sure ToGC/Toc25 progress will definately lead to ICC10 progress. So if we are banging our heads against the second wing in ICC then more difficult raids of the Toc variety will be needed.
Erm.....well now that I see my thoughts down here there might be a useful point in there somewhere, hopefully you can pick out something that makes sense.....and if not then TL;DR
Skcornnelg
Member
This made me lol, cookies for you!
Lyranne
New Member
From what I gathered, the veterans rank was for those who'd be pretty much essential for 10-man progress (whether that's actually what it's for or not, to a newbie, it could appear so), with raiders being more necessary for 25-mans, which alas happen very rarely. We know we have some very good players, and others who perhaps need to get out of the fire when appropriate. We also maybe need people complaining about those not pulling weight. Maybe not publicly (as that's hardly the done thing) but constructive criticism's hard to fault.
It's despiriting being in a raid and hearing the leader over TS sigh and say "Our DPS isn't high enough" and you can see on Recount, etc that it's true. It's always crushing, and it makes one less inclined to sign up if they fear it's going to be another of those weeks. Even if I don't sign up, as I stated before I even joined the guild, "If I'm online and needed, I can join" hell, people have my phone number, they can call me if it's that desperate.
I often neglect to sign up because I'm a scatterbrain. I literally forget there's a raid, or else I end up caught up in something else. That's not to say I'm not willing to drop things if poked/reminded/reprimanded for my own scatty nature.
That being said, perhaps a thread with a list of how many 'active' we have of each role there is, and request those of us with the means to nominate either alts or a re-specialisation to counter anything we lack.
That's not to say it's ideal, as some of us are more comfortable in one role than another, but if we can find a middle-ground (like say, Raz tanking one week, me healing, then switching the next) we may find people have a better idea of what's needed? Not saying it's perfect, but I do think we need a serious brainstorm about it.
It's despiriting being in a raid and hearing the leader over TS sigh and say "Our DPS isn't high enough" and you can see on Recount, etc that it's true. It's always crushing, and it makes one less inclined to sign up if they fear it's going to be another of those weeks. Even if I don't sign up, as I stated before I even joined the guild, "If I'm online and needed, I can join" hell, people have my phone number, they can call me if it's that desperate.
I often neglect to sign up because I'm a scatterbrain. I literally forget there's a raid, or else I end up caught up in something else. That's not to say I'm not willing to drop things if poked/reminded/reprimanded for my own scatty nature.
That being said, perhaps a thread with a list of how many 'active' we have of each role there is, and request those of us with the means to nominate either alts or a re-specialisation to counter anything we lack.
That's not to say it's ideal, as some of us are more comfortable in one role than another, but if we can find a middle-ground (like say, Raz tanking one week, me healing, then switching the next) we may find people have a better idea of what's needed? Not saying it's perfect, but I do think we need a serious brainstorm about it.
thatbloke
Junior Administrator
I've started doing this in the Vets forum, expect more to come out of that in the next week or two - with the approval of the other officers/vets I want to publish a list of people who we think should be signing up each week (even if it's a no) but aren't.
Angelic
Active Member
That's a good thing, I for one wouldn't mind changing specs or mains if it meant I actually got into raids and things started happening to all of us, rather than the chosen few.
Ahey,
This thread has been evolving in a nicely interesting direction, but I just want to add an apropos note:
Yeah, that's never going to happen. It's not needed. Here's why:
Exactly! This has been the case for a long time. If you think back to TBC days, we used to have the nice little elite group that would run Zul'Aman, until we were comfortable enough to open that up to the general raid crew.
Ulduar hard modes and ToC heroic are now in that same status.
The existence of this "harder core" of players in no way endangers the loose nature of our identity and culture, and it never has. There is no need to make the whole raiding group "hard core", let alone the whole guild. The Haven raiding crew has always been quite a balanced group. Personally, I'm rather proud of that.
That's not to say that everything should just be lax and ad-hoc and weed-level laid back. There is a real need for people to take the guild tools seriously, such as this forum and the signups and whatnot. We don't have to be anal about them and go all "black marks" and such, but everyone needs to know that they exist and that, yes, they are being used, so please, just make the best of them as they fit your own nature and play style.
Like I said, this group has its own balance, and if people take themselves seriously, as well as other raiders and raid leaders and the tools, they will converge onto their own spot in the balance.
Cheers,
J.
This thread has been evolving in a nicely interesting direction, but I just want to add an apropos note:
Yeah, that's never going to happen. It's not needed. Here's why:
Exactly! This has been the case for a long time. If you think back to TBC days, we used to have the nice little elite group that would run Zul'Aman, until we were comfortable enough to open that up to the general raid crew.
Ulduar hard modes and ToC heroic are now in that same status.
The existence of this "harder core" of players in no way endangers the loose nature of our identity and culture, and it never has. There is no need to make the whole raiding group "hard core", let alone the whole guild. The Haven raiding crew has always been quite a balanced group. Personally, I'm rather proud of that.
That's not to say that everything should just be lax and ad-hoc and weed-level laid back. There is a real need for people to take the guild tools seriously, such as this forum and the signups and whatnot. We don't have to be anal about them and go all "black marks" and such, but everyone needs to know that they exist and that, yes, they are being used, so please, just make the best of them as they fit your own nature and play style.
Like I said, this group has its own balance, and if people take themselves seriously, as well as other raiders and raid leaders and the tools, they will converge onto their own spot in the balance.
Cheers,
J.
Sasser
New Member
True, but in another way than I think you understood it. Without Veterans we probably wouldn't have been able to organize a good portion of past successful raiding nights, as already discussed in this thread,
Being a Veteran does in no way mean you have a higher priority for a raid spot. What probably led you to believe that they had, is that since all Veterans are very experienced and active players, they tend to sign up more often than Raiders and Trial Raiders, and therefore get to raid more often. Let me repeat: Veterans have no priority whatsoever over a (Trial) Raider that signed up as yes and is on time, and it is not unheard of that an Officer or Veteran put a raid group together only to then step themselves out.