Suggestion

[Gidean]

Hmm see im leafing right now thru my copy of "the Haven rule book" and nether can i find these "raiding standards" u mention, or a section that says a Social guild is all about fun and enjoying the game... except when u step into a raid situation, where apon u have to suk it up or go join a pug!.

That is what your saying isnt it Haven, if u dont wanna conform to this mystical rule book of raiding that weve done fine without up till now, or a new recruit can enjoy every facet of our guild and the people in it until raid time...

Dont get me wrong im not trying to be antagonistic but its a fine line and people r starting to get confused, maybe there should be a set of "rules" instead of "guidelines" about this situation so a new person can decide from the get go to not get put in a situation in raiding where suddenly its not fun and there getting blamed for simply playing the way the have always played and enjoy playing.

Lastly there is a clear rule in the guild raiding rules about disruption and bad attitude against other members of said guild, and yet nothing about this "raiding standards" that includes your point, pls prove me wrong on this point mate?
Id like to see where "do your best and be prepared" becomes be some one u done want to be to make someone else happy or dont come.

 

[thatbloke]

Two points:

1) Everyone who wants to raid, should be wanting to get to the highest possible level of raiding. If this is not true then raiding is not for you.

2) To get to the highest possible level of raiding, there is a people must adhere to a minimum set of standards in terms of how they play the game. This is comprised of the person's ability to play, and partly their gear. This minimum set of standards is a requirement of the game mechanics that we are trying to beat. Doing large amounts of DPS is a large part of that, and recount is a tool that aims in measuring this figure.

While yes, we can (just about) fill a 25-man Haven raid, this is something that has not been happening much recently so it is entirely possible that some people are perhaps not up to scratch.

Rather than calling these people idiots we need to explain to them what we think is going wrong and how we think they can be a better player.

Being a "social raiding guild" has its merits, but there are certain requirements like being aware of what is going on and NOT STANDING IN THE BLOODY FIRE, for instance, that must be able to be adhered to so that the whole raid can succeed.

 

[Larul]

I dont realy agree with what you say about raiding bloke.
When i join a raid with The Haven i join cos i wana have a good time and if that include killing the biggest boss around on heroic-hard-imba
mode thats fine but that aint what i join for. To whipe in a place like Naxx or OS could be just as fun as (even more fun) than killing
Arthas if you do it with a laidback tone and you dont have to be elitist about it.

 

[Windzarko]

I dont realy agree with what you say about raiding bloke.
When i join a raid with The Haven i join cos i wana have a good time and if that include killing the biggest boss around on heroic-hard-imba
mode thats fine but that aint what i join for. To whipe in a place like Naxx or OS could be just as fun as (even more fun) than killing
Arthas if you do it with a laidback tone and you dont have to be elitist about it.

This.

I do raid to succeed, and I don't doubt that a good many of you have seen me get tetchy/quietly seething/a tad petulant/displaying other negative behaviour, if we've had a particularly bad night. But I raid to have fun, and moreover, I raid to have fun with my friends, my fellow guildmates. Obviously it's better when we succeed, but I've had more fun wiping on some bosses than I have succeeding at others, and it's usually defined by the people and attitudes in the group, not the encounters.

That said, I do also agree with Q-man in aiming for the top; I would love to be able to sit back on the 4.0 patch day thinking something like "damn... we actually cleared an expansion's content before the next one came out". We were close in BC, and I just know we can do it now, probably on 10 and 25 both (although the latter will require us to put in a fair bit more elbow-grease to get some people's gear up to scratch).

 

[SgtFury]

Saying don't die and try and do the best you can is elitist? Love it.

 

[thatbloke]

I dont realy agree with what you say about raiding bloke.
When i join a raid with The Haven i join cos i wana have a good time and if that include killing the biggest boss around on heroic-hard-imba
mode thats fine but that aint what i join for. To whipe in a place like Naxx or OS could be just as fun as (even more fun) than killing
Arthas if you do it with a laidback tone and you dont have to be elitist about it.

I'm not saying it doesn't have to be fun. Fun is why we play the game and the lack of said fun during a raid is what causes arguments.

If you join a raid to have a good time, excellent. So do the rest of us. Do you not feel that you want to excel in your position within that raid? To learn from any mistakes that are made?

MAYBE we are now at a point where perhaps, for the guild, we are trying to move forward and progress too fast. Perhaps.

But I still maintain that for the guild to move forward with its raiding (i.e 25-mans) then people do need to improve their game. Wiping repeatedly on teh same boss because of silly mistakes over and over is NOT fun for anyone. This is when finger pointing starts, and what causes alot of conflict.

 

[Haven]

Hmm see im leafing right now thru my copy of "the Haven rule book" and nether can i find these "raiding standards" u mention, or a section that says a Social guild is all about fun and enjoying the game... except when u step into a raid situation, where apon u have to suk it up or go join a pug!.

I'm not a rules lawyer and never intend to be one, I'm sure a guideline can be provided if being "capable of raiding to a standard required to down bosses" is not self evident.

That is what your saying isnt it Haven, if u dont wanna conform to this mystical rule book of raiding that weve done fine without up till now, or a new recruit can enjoy every facet of our guild and the people in it until raid time...

If you, I or anyone else in a raid finds that they are not up to the required tanking/healing/dps/mitigation that the current fight demands then they should be prepared to change roles or swap out. You can quote me verbatim as that is my opinion.

Dont get me wrong im not trying to be antagonistic but its a fine line and people r starting to get confused, maybe there should be a set of "rules" instead of "guidelines" about this situation so a new person can decide from the get go to not get put in a situation in raiding where suddenly its not fun and there getting blamed for simply playing the way the have always played and enjoy playing.

Write some up and get the Officers to read what you've written and approve/request changes/disaprove as appropriate. Then fire it up on the wiki if thats what is required. Nobody should be getting "blamed" for not being up to standard, if they are legitimately trying their best and not fucking around and are just not yet ready then there's no shame in changing roles or being replaced. If however they are fucking around and preventing the kill then sure a bit of stick and some suggestions is the social norm. God knows I've wiped enough raids and been called many interesting things

Lastly there is a clear rule in the guild raiding rules about disruption and bad attitude against other members of said guild, and yet nothing about this "raiding standards" that includes your point, pls prove me wrong on this point mate?
Id like to see where "do your best and be prepared" becomes be some one u done want to be to make someone else happy or dont come.

Do your best is certainly a big part of getting prepared for a raid and this includes gearing up and learning your class and the boss fights and paying attention during the raid itself. If you've "done your best" with regard to this then you should be perfectly fine in most raid situations that are not class/spec specific. If you've not "done your best" then you reap what you sow.

 

[Haven]

When i join a raid with The Haven i join cos i wana have a good time and if that include killing the biggest boss around on heroic-hard-imba
mode thats fine but that aint what i join for. To whipe in a place like Naxx or OS could be just as fun as (even more fun) than killing
Arthas if you do it with a laidback tone and you dont have to be elitist about it.

Fun and success are not mutually exclusive. You can have one whilst achieving the other. Wipes can be hilarious on occasion and fun can be had whilst still progressing on a boss fight. That does not mean that all wipes are funny, if wiping is your aim then you are likely in the minority I would hope.

I manage to balance both my competitive nature and my enjoyment of the social in raiding, I have a laugh whilst trying my best to succeed. Despite that if I'm the one preventing everyone having fun and need to be swapped out then thats just part and parcel of raiding.

 

[Burrick]

Well to be honest the whole reason why i am not raiding anymore and asked to be demoted to community is because of attitude and how people spoke to me on my last raid and tbh if anyone spoke to me like that in rl i would of taken thier fucking head off.. i have been raiding with the haven for a few years now and have always enjoyed it but at the moment i dont want to anymore.... people need to realise they are NOT better than everyone else .. maybe in the game but NOT in real life.. just because you might be clad in t10 does not make you a bloody god among men.. get back down to earth i know im not the only one thinking this

 

[Haven]

Well to be honest the whole reason why i am not raiding anymore and asked to be demoted to community is because of attitude and how people spoke to me on my last raid and tbh if anyone spoke to me like that in rl i would of taken thier fucking head off.. i have been raiding with the haven for a few years now and have always enjoyed it but at the moment i dont want to anymore.... people need to realise they are NOT better than everyone else .. maybe in the game but NOT in real life.. just because you might be clad in t10 does not make you a bloody god among men.. get back down to earth i know im not the only one thinking this

sounds like I missing some of the details of whats been going on - I'm speaking in general terms and certainly hope I've not offended anyone in a recent raid.

 

[Huung]

We have the guild ranks for a reason. Community ranks can raid, but have less priority than the Raider ranks, who have signed up to the guild for the purpose of raiding.
No, this doesn't mean they're sectioned off from the Community members, and can't socialise, we ARE a social guild. If you ever join a pure raiding guild you will see the difference, even with the pushes we've had lately for better raid performance, it doesn't even touch on the level of discipline and order a pure guild demands.
I don't want us to be a pure raiding guild, I did my time with that, and I loved it, but in the end I came back here because I missed the casual attitude.

Everyone in the guild raids to have fun. If you didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't be doing it. The difference comes in what some people consider fun. Yes, learning an encounter for the first time, and getting closer and closer to getting it right is fun, despite the wiping, because you can see the improvement there. An example of this would be the first couple of hours we spent on Marrowgar in ICC the other week.

What people have to understand is raiding is a team game. Sure, you might get fun out of "just being in a raid whether you wipe or not", but are the other 9 or 24 people also in that same mindset? Just because it's fun for you, doesn't mean they feel the same, and if your performance is low because of this, you could be the reason the others aren't enjoying their time.
On the other hand it's not fun for the large majority when some people get a little too hardcore and start whining or blaming others for failure, when they didn't really deserve it. Everyone makes mistakes, we've always had a good attitude towards others in this guild, and it would be a shame now to see tensions building and rifts forming.

A sign-up to a raid is your way of saying you will try your absolute best to help the others in the raid as much as possible; by playing your class to the best of your ability, and keeping your awareness up as to execute the required tactics to the best of your ability. It's only in this way we'll get to see the really fun fights with all 25 of us there. If you don't want to raid like that, ask to change ranks to community (I don't see this as a "demotion", as a raider is in no way an upgrade from a community member, just a different mindset on playing the game). Like I said at the start, the Community rank can still raid, but likely won't be called on for the progression raids, where we need everyone to be playing their A-game in order to succeed.

Just my 2p.

 

[Dr Drae]

The way I see it, our current system works. We've got a good guild, with an amazing social attitude. Nobody dislikes anybody else (bar a few minor dislikes that I might not have heard about), and we all treat each other with respect.

We're not a 'raiding guild' as such. We do this as an event, for our community. We all should know that we're not a hardcore raiding guild, and we all seem perfectly content with that. More than content in fact; the number of times I've seen our players leave for such hardcore raiding guilds only to come back because they preferred our way of doing things, or our general social attitude, which I'll keep saying; is amazing.

In every system there's going to be problems, but I rarely, if ever see people mucking around, or at least, mucking around beyond the generally acceptable point, that everyone knows anyway.

I myself have been on a PC, just waiting for a raid to end, because it's a shitty night, and we really haven't done much, but the next day, I can still log on, and have a real laugh with the same people that were swearing and cursing and me but 12 hours ago.

That's the sort of community our guild has. I value this highly, and in my opinion, if anybody feels the need to set up strictures and rules on this, then they should go and join the hardcore raiding guilds.

This is not an attack on anyone; just my £0.02. Correct or call me on any points as you will.

 

[Doxbee]

Ok... here is my 2p's worth.

Point #1. I've only been playing WoW for a few months and have been a level 80 for only a few weeks. I love the raiding aspect of it but have found myself in a bit of a catch-22 situation when it comes to getting in on raids. I don't have the experience/gear to be considered first choice for a lot of raids, but without doing those raids I won't get the experience or the gear.

Point #2. In recent weeks there have been a few occasions where we've been aiming for a 25-man but ended up doing 2x10-man groups. The first group usually consists of the 'A-team', and the raid is done in record time with few or no wipes. The second group has usually struggled. How about mixing it up a bit guys?

Point #3. I know that in some raids I have made some elementary mistakes, some of which may have led to wipes. I am still learning. Whilst I am quite comfortable in saying that I'm unfamiliar with a particular instance and asking for advice, the advice is sometimes scant and incomplete. For instance ('scuse the pun), in a recent ToC I was following the instructions given to me but nobody had mentioned 'don't stand in the fire' or even that fires can spring up. Watching the boss/adds/whatever, I didn't realise that I was aflame or even that my health was dropping at an alarming rate. Fortunately, somebody on TS did and told me I was stood in a fire. Somebody else chipped in with, "well don't heal him then". Not helpful and not conjucive with enjoying the raid. Please remember guys that not everyone will be playing to the same standards and whilst it may be elementary knowledge to most of you to not stand in the fire, it may not be to everyone.

Point #4. An extension to point #3 really. Whilst on the whole I think that the in-raid instructions are very good, sometimes they can be a little vague. For example, "somebody pick up the adds" is a common one. Is that me? Do I pick up the adds? Do I stay on the boss? A few name-specific instructions would be very helpful.

If I have come across as a bit of a moaner, I apologise. I'm just giving my POV as a single-character, recently-attained level 80 who would love to do more raiding.

Constructive feedback welcome.

 

[Pwnstar]

"somebody pick up the adds"

Aimed at tanks, dont worry about that one bud

 

[thatbloke]

Ok... here is my 2p's worth.

Point #1. I've only been playing WoW for a few months and have been a level 80 for only a few weeks. I love the raiding aspect of it but have found myself in a bit of a catch-22 situation when it comes to getting in on raids. I don't have the experience/gear to be considered first choice for a lot of raids, but without doing those raids I won't get the experience or the gear.

Point #2. In recent weeks there have been a few occasions where we've been aiming for a 25-man but ended up doing 2x10-man groups. The first group usually consists of the 'A-team', and the raid is done in record time with few or no wipes. The second group has usually struggled. How about mixing it up a bit guys?

Point #3. I know that in some raids I have made some elementary mistakes, some of which may have led to wipes. I am still learning. Whilst I am quite comfortable in saying that I'm unfamiliar with a particular instance and asking for advice, the advice is sometimes scant and incomplete. For instance ('scuse the pun), in a recent ToC I was following the instructions given to me but nobody had mentioned 'don't stand in the fire' or even that fires can spring up. Watching the boss/adds/whatever, I didn't realise that I was aflame or even that my health was dropping at an alarming rate. Fortunately, somebody on TS did and told me I was stood in a fire. Somebody else chipped in with, "well don't heal him then". Not helpful and not conjucive with enjoying the raid. Please remember guys that not everyone will be playing to the same standards and whilst it may be elementary knowledge to most of you to not stand in the fire, it may not be to everyone.

Point #4. An extension to point #3 really. Whilst on the whole I think that the in-raid instructions are very good, sometimes they can be a little vague. For example, "somebody pick up the adds" is a common one. Is that me? Do I pick up the adds? Do I stay on the boss? A few name-specific instructions would be very helpful.

If I have come across as a bit of a moaner, I apologise. I'm just giving my POV as a single-character, recently-attained level 80 who would love to do more raiding.

Constructive feedback welcome.

Feed back like yours is perfectly welcome

 

[Marqo]

From what I've seen you're doing fine Dox, especially for someone so new to the game. There are a few genreal rules of PvE that it is generally assumed everyone knows (even though it is not always so). Some of these rules are:

-do not stand in fire
-do not stand in green shit
-do not stand in anything else that looks like it could plausibly hurt you unless you are told to do so.
-do not stand in front of bosses unless told to; they may cleave/do cone AoEs, and melee may get parried.
-do not stand behind dragons, as they tail swipe. With a dragon you stand to the side, generally at its rear leg. It helps that dragon hitboxes (and thus the range where you can melee it) are huge.

When things need to be picked up, that's generally up to the tanks, as they pick up mobs to be tanked. (although there are a handful of exeptions in a handful of encouners, where this will be explained in the tactics)

I do think many experienced raiders often overlook what new people need explained to them. This is, of course, a bad thing and something we must try to avoid as we do not want to drive decent (as in friendly etc.) people away from the game or any aspect of it.

It might actually be a good idea to set up a sort of "Haven Academy" where we have a group of new players with a handful of experienced ones go through some of the easier raids at a leisurely pace to let them get some experience in raiding and familiarise them with the terminology and way we do things. I'd be up to helping with that something like once a week, if enough people are interested.

 

[Dr Drae]

It might actually be a good idea to set up a sort of "Haven Academy" where we have a group of new players with a handful of experienced ones go through some of the easier raids at a leisurely pace to let them get some experience in raiding and familiarise them with the terminology and way we do things. I'd be up to helping with that something like once a week, if enough people are interested.

That's not a bad idea, and although I'm not the MOST experienced, I wouldn't mind helping out with that.

Edit: But there's a thin line between helping the newer level 80's settle in, and being patronising. I know that's definitely not what you intended it to mean, I just look at it from all angles. Just a run through Naxx 10 or something every week would be benificial I think. So that people like Doxbee can get some experience. We used to do it weekly for alts and that, but people have lost interest. Which brings back that old topic. xD

 

[Zooggy]

Hey,

I have to say, even though there was a point in this thread that the conversation took a bit of a downturn, I quite like the way it picked up again and moved into a shiny, happy place with lots of zen.

However, I do want to inject a minor, yet important correction:

We are not a "social guild".

Looking at The Haven as if it were a social guild is about as bad as looking at The Haven as if it were a raiding guild, which we are also not.

Before you hit that alluring Reply button, I suggest you take this opportunity to go reread the Core Principles. They're short and sweet, and they really spell out who we are and why we exist.

(By the way, you might not agree with those principles and you might even have useful suggestions about them. That's fine. I ask, however, that you start another thread about that, and for the purposes of this thread, accept that yes, that is who we are.)

Also, as a word of caution, don't start going haywire about how there's "two Havens" or "two sides of the guild" or whatnot. There's only one guild. Community is what we are. Raiding is one thing that one do. We take who we are seriously, but we should also take what we do, whatever we do, seriously, even if it is just for the fun, and yes, of course, it is just for the fun. But it can (and should) be serious fun. (If you think fun and serious are opposites, then I totally just lost you, didn't I? All I can say about that is, just trust me and go with it.)

Now, no one is forced to raid and no one is going to be kicked out of the guild for not raiding. Hell, even Raiders won't be kicked out for not raiding. (Just, please, do remember to sign up as a "No". ) But, if you do want to raid, then the point that Sabot keeps trying to make is, do realize that raiding is challenging. It's meant to be challenging, we like it to be challenging, that's why it's fun. Sure, cakewalks and facerolls can be fun too, but so can tackling and besting a hard challenge.

This reality raises two interesting points:

On the one hand, do try to realise that not everyone has a high-end machine, not everyone has top of the line PvE instincts, and not everyone is equally used to you and your playstyle. If one particular raid member is having difficulty with some particular aspect of an encounter, deal with it. Take it as an extra level of challenge, an additional hurdle added on to whatever obstacle you're trying to overcome. Have your fun, and don't assume that, just because there's tacticts written on wowwiki, tankspot, wowhead or some other internet bathroom door out there, that the encounter should be a pushover. Hell, take a random group of ten guildies, right now, and there's a non-zero chance that you'll wipe on Patchy. And I can almost guarantee that no matter who you'll take, you'll probably have to deal with at least one trash wipe on an Ulduar full clear. That's the game. Enjoy it or go elsewhere.

On the other hand, people have reactions. It's normal for frustration to pop up here and there after the twelfth wipe on a boss that you one-shotted just last week. People say things they don't mean all the time. The average age in this guild is probably substantially higher than the average age throughout the game. If you haven't developed a bit of a thick skin by now, I have news for you, you're not going to lead a happy life. Whatever insult someone just hurled on TeamSpeak or /g, it wasn't bloody personal, so don't take it personally. Weren't you in grade school at some point? Didn't you play some sort of ball-based sport? Didn't your classmates hurl random insults at you when you failed to do whatever it was you were supposed to do? I'm fairly sure you didn't take it personally at the time either, although I'm sure fights broke out here and there.

Bottom line, if raiding is something you enjoy, then there's probably a spot for you within the Haven raiding team, somewhere. If you want to farm Ashen Verdict rep for four hours a day, every day of the week, then go away. Now. Otherwise, you're welcome here, whether you're primarily success-oriented or primarily socially-oriented. You just have to realise that the game is not the same for everyone, and that there's people around you who are going to be more serious than you, and there's people around you who are going to be less serious than you. You just have to learn to find your own place among us. It may be a hard thing to do, at times, but I promise you we're well worth the effort.

Another thing: those of you out there that have gotten to know me have realised this already, but those of you who haven't, let me tell you: I *will* fight for you. If you feel that you've lost your place, I will do my best to help you find it again. And I will do this whether you feel your place is with the larger Haven community or the smaller raiding team. Doesn't mean I'll succeed, but I *will* fight.

Let not the community feel and the laid back attitude lead you into believing we are a social guild, though. We are so much more.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Pwnstar]

If you want to farm Ashen Verdict rep for four hours a day, every day of the week, then go away.

Runs away...

 

[Elincia]

Ok... here is my 2p's worth.

Point #1. I've only been playing WoW for a few months and have been a level 80 for only a few weeks. I love the raiding aspect of it but have found myself in a bit of a catch-22 situation when it comes to getting in on raids. I don't have the experience/gear to be considered first choice for a lot of raids, but without doing those raids I won't get the experience or the gear.

Point #2. In recent weeks there have been a few occasions where we've been aiming for a 25-man but ended up doing 2x10-man groups. The first group usually consists of the 'A-team', and the raid is done in record time with few or no wipes. The second group has usually struggled. How about mixing it up a bit guys?

Point #3. I know that in some raids I have made some elementary mistakes, some of which may have led to wipes. I am still learning. Whilst I am quite comfortable in saying that I'm unfamiliar with a particular instance and asking for advice, the advice is sometimes scant and incomplete. For instance ('scuse the pun), in a recent ToC I was following the instructions given to me but nobody had mentioned 'don't stand in the fire' or even that fires can spring up. Watching the boss/adds/whatever, I didn't realise that I was aflame or even that my health was dropping at an alarming rate. Fortunately, somebody on TS did and told me I was stood in a fire. Somebody else chipped in with, "well don't heal him then". Not helpful and not conjucive with enjoying the raid. Please remember guys that not everyone will be playing to the same standards and whilst it may be elementary knowledge to most of you to not stand in the fire, it may not be to everyone.

Point #4. An extension to point #3 really. Whilst on the whole I think that the in-raid instructions are very good, sometimes they can be a little vague. For example, "somebody pick up the adds" is a common one. Is that me? Do I pick up the adds? Do I stay on the boss? A few name-specific instructions would be very helpful.

I really like your feedback cause I know you are right in some points.
First point: I don't agree do some random hc's and you get yourself a fine set of gear!
Second point: I totally agree with this point. I have seen this many times and I have been on both sides of the medalion. But I have to say being with the B-group isn't that bad though But probably we need to mix it up a little more...
Third and fourth point: Also true. But you can always read tactics on Wowwiki. If you do that things will get less vague. Also if someone picks up the adds, it is usually the offtank


Also I really like Marqo's idea! We can also let some people learn new people how to play there class(but this should never be mandatory, imo) We pick class trainers ( Sasser or sabot for rogue's, lithy for pala and so on). If you want I can do it for the survival Hunters I know how to dps with them and spec them ( thanks to elitist jerks and own experience!)

This is all!