Suggestion

[Doxbee]

On the other hand, people have reactions. It's normal for frustration to pop up here and there after the twelfth wipe on a boss that you one-shotted just last week. People say things they don't mean all the time. The average age in this guild is probably substantially higher than the average age throughout the game. If you haven't developed a bit of a thick skin by now, I have news for you, you're not going to lead a happy life. Whatever insult someone just hurled on TeamSpeak or /g, it wasn't bloody personal, so don't take it personally. Weren't you in grade school at some point? Didn't you play some sort of ball-based sport? Didn't your classmates hurl random insults at you when you failed to do whatever it was you were supposed to do? I'm fairly sure you didn't take it personally at the time either, although I'm sure fights broke out here and there.

Sorry Zooggy, but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I'm 46 years old and still not the oldest member in this guild (Hi Mavren). I Love the fact that even the younger members in this group have a good level of maturity. If I wanted to to get abuse for not knowing the game as well as others I could have joined <Rinsers-R-Us>... average age of 13. Yes... you are right that we all probably encountered some abuse from our peers when we were at school. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who remembers how hurtful it could be. Thankfully, my peers are now no longer cruelty-driven schoolchildren. Unfortunately, there are one or two in the guild who still act that way. I don't care how thick-skinned you are, if someone tells you you're shit, you're going to take it personally. Besides, any first year psychology student will tell you that you'll get a much better response from somebody with encouragement than you will with derision.

The idea of a Raid Academy was an excellent suggestion. I for one, would jump at the chance of running some of the lower level raids just for the experience. I think it would also be a good thing for the people leading the raid, as some feedback as to their tactics/communication skills would be far more beneficial under a more relaxed atmosphere. I really hope that the officers can get their heads together and make this happen.

 

[Doxbee]

I really like your feedback cause I know you are right in some points.
First point: I don't agree do some random hc's and you get yourself a fine set of gear!
Second point: I totally agree with this point. I have seen this many times and I have been on both sides of the medalion. But I have to say being with the B-group isn't that bad though But probably we need to mix it up a little more...
Third and fourth point: Also true. But you can always read tactics on Wowwiki. If you do that things will get less vague. Also if someone picks up the adds, it is usually the offtank


Also I really like Marqo's idea! We can also let some people learn new people how to play there class(but this should never be mandatory, imo) We pick class trainers ( Sasser or sabot for rogue's, lithy for pala and so on). If you want I can do it for the survival Hunters I know how to dps with them and spec them ( thanks to elitist jerks and own experience!)

This is all!

Yeah... now seem to be gearing up quite nicely due to the random heroics, but I have to say that prior to the last patch I was struggling badly due to the reasons I've already mentioned. Of course, doing the randoms presents itself with a lot of the unfamiliarity problems already discussed, but I'm glad to say that up to now it seems to be more with the PUG'd heroics rather than the guilded ones. The other thing of course, is that as good as the gear obtained from heroic badges is, there are still certain things that are only available on drops. I find it quite annoying and frustrating that the crossbow or the trinket that I could have really used might be dropped in a raid that I didn't get into, only for it to be disenchanted by the 'A-team'.

As for the wowwiki guides... being the total noob that I am, I had no idea they existed. Like I said, I'm still learning and finding out things like that are invaluable. Thanks Elincia...

 

[Ashya]

Also, as a word of caution, don't start going haywire about how there's "two Havens" or "two sides of the guild" or whatnot. There's only one guild. Community is what we are. Raiding is one thing that one do. We take who we are seriously, but we should also take what we do, whatever we do, seriously, even if it is just for the fun, and yes, of course, it is just for the fun. But it can (and should) be serious fun. (If you think fun and serious are opposites, then I totally just lost you, didn't I? All I can say about that is, just trust me and go with it.)

Now, no one is forced to raid and no one is going to be kicked out of the guild for not raiding. Hell, even Raiders won't be kicked out for not raiding. (Just, please, do remember to sign up as a "No". ) But, if you do want to raid, then the point that Sabot keeps trying to make is, do realize that raiding is challenging. It's meant to be challenging, we like it to be challenging, that's why it's fun. Sure, cakewalks and facerolls can be fun too, but so can tackling and besting a hard challenge.

Agree. There is only -one- guild. One guild that embraces all the aspects of the game, if it's RP that you fancy, merely seeing all the beautiful scenery or raiding. And nobody is forcing anyone to raid. Well... is that true?

Of course we don't force people who ask for the Raider rank to raid. Because if they didn't want to raid, they wouldn't have asked, begged or badgered the wise and omniscient Officer corps for their rank, now would they.

But what is that I hear? A cry of indignation? "I'm a raider, but I don't wanna improve myself. Neither do I want to be forced by something as silly as the Raid Rules to sign up for raid or prepare. Because... like... that would be silly!"

Okay. fine. I'm sure someone will be happy to demote *cough* I mean change your rank to Community.

We are all in this game for fun. And succeeding is more fun. And helping others to succeed is also fun. Frustrating fun, but fun nonetheless. So yeah, Raiding Academy? Sounds like a fun idea. I don't mind doing some Naxx runs with the nublets (Just kidding!) so they can get the hang of the ins-and-outs of raiding. Ah, the sweet smell of raid-rage...

I'm not suggesting that everybody should become a hard-core, balls-to-the-wall raidiot when they want the Raider rank. But do ask yourself this; is it fair on others if -you- are the weight that drags down the raid's chance of success? Is it fair on anybody if we say "To hell with standards, let's just wipe until we are all so fed up of raiding -nobody- wants to raid anymore."?

PS: Zooggy, before you answer; Go die in a fire. Or green shit. Or black shit. Or blue swirly shit.
PPS: Just Kidding, love ya really!
PPPS: Nah, not really.

 

[Pwnstar]

Raiding Academy

Is it just me who thinks this is completely redundant. All heroics teach you to adapt to changing circumstances and avoid multiple variables, Fire, stacks of a certain debuff etc. Raids are no different. So by proxy, 5-man's, heroics and the such are all the raiding academy you need.

I personally tell people to check up on tactics on the interwebs, and learn your class. If thats done then surely no problems arise? Before every boss fight theres usually a brief explanation of the fight with direction being given throughout the battle. If people aren't 100% about a certain aspect, just ask?

If you wanted to practice for the harder content eg. ICC10, there is no point in going to naxx which has totally different encounters and obsolete lewt.

The concept of helping new players along is fine, but devoting a night of the week to practice low level content... Not what i'd consider a good allocation of resources.

 

[Dr Drae]

In heroics you're working with a random group you've dragged up, and it's not going to be that hard. In a raid, it's a fair bit different. These people, you're going to be working with for hours, and for a lot of evenings over their stay in The Haven. It's not just about developing the essential raid skills, but also about the smaller stuff, for instance;

-Teamspeak: Most players probably haven't done heroics with Teamspeak before, unless they joined one of ours and went in their own time to get it. If so, props to you. Also, voice recognition is a big problem with our newer players, although I agree that could be sorted just by hanging around on Teamspeak for a bit of time out of raids.

-Also it develops the teamwork that some of our healers and tanks have already developed. Like, healers not having to say a word but everyone knows what everyone's doing. Some argue that that relationship can't be 'forged', but I think spending a couple of hours in a raid would definitely help towards that. For instance Naxx 10; while probably not a raid anybody would do, people would be bonding, just through boredom.

I'm not saying that you're completely wrong, but there's no real harm in trying it out, just to see if it helps anymore to current raids. I'd like to point out that these problems, maybe happened, but a lot less when we were running the Tuesday night gear run. The emblems would help as well...

 

[Doxbee]

In heroics you're working with a random group you've dragged up, and it's not going to be that hard. In a raid, it's a fair bit different. These people, you're going to be working with for hours, and for a lot of evenings over their stay in The Haven. It's not just about developing the essential raid skills, but also about the smaller stuff, for instance;

-Teamspeak: Most players probably haven't done heroics with Teamspeak before, unless they joined one of ours and went in their own time to get it. If so, props to you. Also, voice recognition is a big problem with our newer players, although I agree that could be sorted just by hanging around on Teamspeak for a bit of time out of raids.

-Also it develops the teamwork that some of our healers and tanks have already developed. Like, healers not having to say a word but everyone knows what everyone's doing. Some argue that that relationship can't be 'forged', but I think spending a couple of hours in a raid would definitely help towards that. For instance Naxx 10; while probably not a raid anybody would do, people would be bonding, just through boredom.

I'm not saying that you're completely wrong, but there's no real harm in trying it out, just to see if it helps anymore to current raids. I'd like to point out that these problems, maybe happened, but a lot less when we were running the Tuesday night gear run. The emblems would help as well...

Agreed... and some of us haven't got the achievement for Naxx yet either.

 

[Elincia]

As for the wowwiki guides... being the total noob that I am, I had no idea they existed. Like I said, I'm still learning and finding out things like that are invaluable. Thanks Elincia...

Hehe, I never knew they excisted too After playing WoW for a year I found the site But it is really usefull and if you want to raid more often it be good if you look tactics up on this site. Also if you want to improve your dps and raid preformance you can always google your class! or Look it up at elitist jerks.Or ask any guildie with the same class. Never forget we are a community that's helps each other! ( /joke atleast that is what I read about it on the core principles )

 

[Huung]

We can also let some people learn new people how to play there class(but this should never be mandatory, imo) We pick class trainers ( Sasser or sabot for rogue's, lithy for pala and so on).

We had a Class Master rank a while back in BC, but in the end it was dropped (still not entirely sure on the reasoning, you'll have to check with T-Bone or Lithy on that one). Still, for the most part Sabot will now do that job for every class, being the clever fellow that he is. You might find some classes are palmed off onto others (like me getting to poke the shamans occasionally), but he's your first port of call.

Is it just me who thinks this is completely redundant. All heroics teach you to adapt to changing circumstances and avoid multiple variables, Fire, stacks of a certain debuff etc. Raids are no different. So by proxy, 5-man's, heroics and the such are all the raiding academy you need.

I personally tell people to check up on tactics on the interwebs, and learn your class. If thats done then surely no problems arise? Before every boss fight theres usually a brief explanation of the fight with direction being given throughout the battle. If people aren't 100% about a certain aspect, just ask?

If you wanted to practice for the harder content eg. ICC10, there is no point in going to naxx which has totally different encounters and obsolete lewt.

The concept of helping new players along is fine, but devoting a night of the week to practice low level content... Not what i'd consider a good allocation of resources.

I know I'm bumming him a little in this post, but I couldn't agree more with this. This is exactly why heroics are there - to get you used to the tactics you would be using in a raid, but in a smaller, easier to deal with environment.
Tbh the rules are always the same:
1) Don't die. Being dead means 0 DPS.
2) Don't stand in anything ever unless specifically told to for that fight.
3) Refer to 1.

 

[thatbloke]

We had a Class Master rank a while back in BC, but in the end it was dropped (still not entirely sure on the reasoning, you'll have to check with T-Bone or Lithy on that one). Still, for the most part Sabot will now do that job for every class, being the clever fellow that he is. You might find some classes are palmed off onto others (like me getting to poke the shamans occasionally), but he's your first port of call.



I know I'm bumming him a little in this post, but I couldn't agree more with this. This is exactly why heroics are there - to get you used to the tactics you would be using in a raid, but in a smaller, easier to deal with environment.
Tbh the rules are always the same:
1) Don't die. Being dead means 0 DPS.
2) Don't stand in anything ever unless specifically told to for that fight.
3) Refer to 1.

Just in relation to your 2nd point...

The problem is that if you aren't made aware that there is something going to happen that you shouldn't be standing in in the first place then you dont always pay attention, it's happened to me quite a few times

The thing we as veterans need to remember though, is that we've been playing this game for YEARS. Since RELEASE in some cases.

We know these things.

Newer players don't, and perhaps we forget that

 

[midgert]

Is it just me who thinks this is completely redundant.

Yes.........

 

[Huung]

Yes.........

Pretty sure I also agreed with this not two posts ago

Just in relation to your 2nd point...

The problem is that if you aren't made aware that there is something going to happen that you shouldn't be standing in in the first place then you dont always pay attention

Well I know my points were obvious, but I did think it was a little over-patronising to put a point in of "pay attention when in a raid". That's kind of like telling people to click on a refreshment portal, or buff others at the start. If you're not going to be paying attention then why are you bothering to raid?

Also, on the whole "time spent playing thing"; within 6 months of starting my account I was downing Archimonde and Kael'Thas. Sure, in the year I've actually had my account active I've racked up over 3,000 hours, but I was a total nab to start with, I just read EJ articles and had a sniff around the internet. It's not hard to learn, especially when there's a thread linking all the EJ links on how to play your class in this very subforum. I'm not having a go, I'm just saying that if people are willing to learn, the resources are there in front of them.

 

[Pwnstar]

Yes.........

Once again, fantastically constructive midge, what would we possibly do without you...

 

[Gidean]

I think maybe midge was trying to point out the obvious to you " Do better man" !, as usual i think you miss the point! Oh and for the record...dont even joke, if midge wernt in this guild id consider it a social and gaming tragedy, as opposed to if you wernt......id consider that ...progress.

That constructive enough for ya little man?

 

[Pwnstar]

Err, lol? L2distinguish banter and personal attacks.

Also, before your negativity gets this thread closed and its damn fine points forgotten, Suck it up. If you have an issue with me (Which it seems you do) then just talk to me rather than playing white knight of the internet, K?

 

[Burrick]

Come on gid mount your gay white stead (midge) and come rescue me from the evil people on this server!! lmao

 

[Gidean]

1 - 0 Burrick, dirty homo

 

[midgert]

Come on gid mount your gay white stead (midge) and come rescue me from the evil people on this server!! lmao

Errm im always mounted , you should know that