You're Not In The Guild

[Zooggy]

Hoy,

Disclaimer: what follows is not an accusation or indictment of anyone. It is a statement of observed facts and an open request.

Observed facts: Over the past couple of weeks, there have been at least three separate incidents where people participating in various threads were called out for "not being in The Haven guild".

Open request: I would like this to stop.

The Haven has its roots in THN and is hosted by THN. While there is a fair bit of autonomy between the guild and the THN community, they are inextricably intertwined.

Naturally, guild officers will always make decisions for the good of the guild first, and the good of THN (a close) second. Still, we are very much a part of THN, and the opinion of fellow THNers is to be welcomed and considered valid at all times, regardless of whether or not they are members of the guild, and yes, even regardless of whether they are even WoW players.

Consider this: would anyone seriously expect a negative comment aimed at me if I were to post in the EVE HNW sub-forums, even though I've never even downloaded the EVE client?

I want all of us THNers to treat ourselves and all our fellow gamers with the respect we all deserve.

I'm leaving this thread open for comments. Feel free to add your thoughts, whether positive or negative. Again, please don't point fingers at other people. I, on the other hand, am fair game. Flame all you want.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Dr Drae]

Seen only one example myself, but yeah, it's a bit off; I've played with the Eve guys, they're all good guys people. I joined a complete noob and they took great care of me, so I think it only right that even if they haven't joined us, we extend the same courtesy... And we are a community after all.

Having a problem with another member on THN, although not brilliant, is fine. It happens, people have disagreements, but when you call them out on their not being a part of our guild to invalidate what they say, you're then calling out a whole group, which is not on.

So yeah, basically what Zoog said, but just backing up the point.

 

[AcidK]

The only point where I have seen this happen, personally, was when someone was called out for not being in guild when they were putting in their input on a question generally directed at the guild's current schedule situation. Where I can in fact see falt in people calling the 'You Are Not In Ther Guild' card I can also see fault on the other end, where one adds input into a system that they have no current knowledge of.

I am not saying that I endorse the whole 'you are not in guild' stuff that apparently goes on, because I don't and agree that is something that should be nipped on the bud before it gets worse. However I do disagree with people adding 'fluff' input where it is not required.

Ask yourself this: Would you be happy if you asked a group of friends what they are doing tomorrow and someone, perhaps a friend or a stranger, inputs a load of things they could be doing but gives no actual input at that current time.

Again, I don't endorse this, but bare in mind that sometimes it is called for.

 

[Bradley]

I am afraid that I disagree with Zooggy and the larger point here. I believe everyone is free to have their opinion, but it appears to me that outside input on in-guild matters are escalating matters where it is not needed. I don't plan to play Eve, but before I make statements about how the THN/Haven side of that is performed I would be in the fold of the situation and not in a poorly backed outside perspective.

So in summary I am not a great fan of outside opinion on in guild matters, because to put it bluntly it is making situations worse than they need to be, and I believe that those parties that have been called out have been necessarily so.

I know Zooggy is turning when he reads this and I would prefer for you not to do a line by line quote fest of this post telling me why it is not in the best interest of situations.

That is all

 

[Zhinrak]

I have no problem what so ever with non guild members, and even THN members who do not play wow posting in these forums.

What I personally do not like is that a few of the comments made, as Vonya has already pointed out, have been people making uninformed comments on the state of the guild.

If someone is asking a question about our guild, and how our guild is being run, let us be the ones to answer it. We do not need to be told how other guilds are being run, or what other guilds are doing and we do not need people who are not in the guild making speculations about how its being run as this can and has led to misconceptions and caused confusion and even antagonized needless arguments.

 

[Ronin Storm]

I'm in the "support Zooggy" camp, for the record.

Would you be happy if you asked a group of friends what they are doing tomorrow and someone, perhaps a friend or a stranger, inputs a load of things they could be doing but gives no actual input at that current time.

We're all friends here, no?

THN is an open community. The Haven is an extension of THN in WoW. It's totally awesome that it's taken on a life of its own and mostly does its own thing but it is part of THN none-the-less. Excluding THNers from THN things really isn't on.

That said, I think a good part of AcidK's point is about constructive input. I'm not a big fan of innane commentary (though one can argue that online interaction requires it, at some level) and I'm very much against unsupported negative input, especially when it has the form/effect of raining on others' parades.

The former I think we just need to accept and glide over when it happens. The latter we've got rules about (the one about this place being for making fun, not detracting from it). Got critique? Great, but make it constructive or you're just being an ass.

Ya, so, just putting my oar in.

 

[Psychosis]

The comments made by these 'Outsiders' are more often than not compleatly useless or worse. Several times people have butted into serious theads and either Completely derailed or at least resulted in arguments that consumed a vast portion of the thread. If you're not going to be constuctive, stay out.

Also, there are some people in THN that I do not consider a friend.

 

[Huung]

Consider this: would anyone seriously expect a negative comment aimed at me if I were to post in the EVE HNW sub-forums, even though I've never even downloaded the EVE client?

If you were trying to tell the EVE players how bad an idea of theirs was, with relation to their corp (guild) in EVE, then yes, I would expect negative comments to be aimed at you.

 

[AcidK]

Aye, I can just imagine what the responses would be like if, in Eve, I went to the THN corp (forgot which one it was now) and butted into their affairs, being an 'Outsider' to that communtiy since I own and run my own corp, in a seperate alliance. The same can be applied to The Haven, when people do derail a thread with comments when they should have no place to do so.

I understand fully that The Haven is an extension of the THN communtiy but I would not hesitate to fully exclude those that give no input to that extension, especially if negative impact comes into play.

 

[BiG D]

Regardless of who should be allowed to say what, if you think someone is out of line it's always better to just report the post and let the moderators deal with it, or simply ignore it altogether. Piling onto the argument is pretty much always the wrong solution.

 

[Zooggy]

Hey,

Let me add some points.

When someone says "you're not in the guild", they are doing one of two things. They're either (1) adding a point of argument to the discussion by way of a direct attack at the personal credibility of their target; or (2) moderating the person's post.

If it's (1), then I'm saying that's not a valid argument. Ever. It's about as productive as calling someone a noob. Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't, but either way, it's an ad hominem attack and it contributes nothing to the discussion. If you don't like what they said, refute the content of their post, don't attack their standing.

Note that I can't dictate how people choose to argue. This paragraph above was a request. Just be aware that ad hominem attacks are just fallaciously bad rhetoric, and they're not going to buy you any points in my book.

If it's (2), then, I appreciate the sentiment, but quite frankly, it's not your job. Lith, Swampfae, myself, and now Pirate, we have moderator rights over these forums, and if we feel an intervention is warranted, we'll step in. By the same token, THN has a moderation and administration team, and although they tend to stay out of guild politics, if they feel that THN policy has been violated, then they too will step in.

I'd like to point out that all of these instances were posted not by Veterans, Officers or forum moderators, but rather, by people who were simply taking an interested part in the discussion. Engaged argument, like the one we're having in this thread, is good. Random chastising of other users is not, even if you are 100% right. If you think it serious enough, like Big D says, report the post. If not, just leave it alone.

If someone is asking a question about our guild, and how our guild is being run, let us be the ones to answer it.

Agreed. But by the same token, if someone is speaking above their rank or station about such matters, let us also be the ones to say so, regardless of whether they are in the guild or not. Everyone knows (or should know) who the guild leadership is. It's funny that no one has ever posted anything along the lines of "shut up, you're not an officer/vet/mod/admin", but if I saw a pattern with that sort of stuff, I'd be stepping in just the same.

The comments made by these 'Outsiders' are more often than not compleatly useless or worse.

No. Since you mentioned it, the last two cases, one was a simple misunderstanding of the context and subject matter of both the original post and the out-of-guild post, and the other was an entirely valid concern, that just happened to be raised by an out-of-guild user. In any case, if a post is useless or worse, then, again, that's a problem regardless of whether the poster is in the guild or not. And again, report it if you must, ignore it if you can, but leave the moderating to the moderators, and leave the ad hominem attacks out of the forums entirely.

Here's hoping I made sense.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Zhinrak]

If you want to draw focus on the two most recent examples here is why i personally believe both had no reason to post here because of not being in the guild.

Firstly was someone responding to a question directly about the condition of our guild and its raiding/heroic status, this question was answered completely wrong in relation to the haven, being told that no one cared about heroics and that they had all stopped. Belfa (who was asking the original question) had no idea who this person answering was, and if he were to believe the answer he was given it would have given him the wrong impression of how our guild currently is. By inappropriately answering a question about something they did not know about this person added a needless amount of confusion into the thread and in having to actively contradict that answer and make it clear that he was wrong led to a bit of confrontation which would have been avoided completely.

The second (and in my opinion, more serious) encounter has someone who is not in the guild making direct, false accusations about some of the raid decisions made by our raid leaders. Yes the do bring up a semi valid point and express concerns that others may share, but there is a difference in raising a valid point and just making wild accusations, especially when said individual is mainly speculating over the intentions of raid decisions made around a year ago, by different people, and did not remain in the guild long enough to witness that those decisions were in fact made for the exact reasons people were told and this was proven by the results of said raiding decisions.

By all means other members of the THN and players not within our guild can come here and happily chat with us, express your ideas and opinions, discuss class mechanics, raids instances and anything else you may want. Again the issue here is people making uninformed comments and accusations about events and situations they do not know about fully, in these cases its people who are not within the guild, making comments about the status of our guild. I would expect the same sort of response if i wandered into the EVE channels (or any other for that matter) to dictate the status of their corp and accuse their leaders of being corrupt. We are not trying to invalidate their arguments because of the mind set "your not in the guild you don't have a say in the matter", its more specifically "your not in the guild, you do not have enough knowledge about the current condition of our guild to be making these accusations and generalizations of our guild". I believe this is why masia described the comments as 'useless' because for the most part they are being highly counterproductive, and the existence of this thread and this debate proves it because this could all easily have been avoided if the pre-mentioned comments were either not made, or more importantly, made in a more polite and constructive manner.

 

[BiG D]

If you don't like what they said, refute the content of their post, don't attack their standing.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Zooggy]

Hey,

here is why i personally believe both had no reason to post here because of not being in the guild

You missed my point entirely. It doesn't matter that you believe that. By coming out with a "you're not in guild" post, you're either attacking the person, or doing back seat moderation.

They are both inappropriate, regardless of the validity or lack thereof of the original motivation. I'm asking that it stop.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Xylak]

back seat moderation.

Giggidy?

 

[Bradley]

So let me get this striaght Zooggy, everyone is free to have their own opinion and say what they like, but you are stopping people from in my opinion validly stating that someone is poorly informed about interim matters, and that they shouldn't be involving themselves in those matters?

Because seriously I am questionning a lot at the minute, if that was your stance why end your original post by saying open to comment.

Thanks me.

 

[AcidK]

Apparently it doesn't matter what we belive in as long as it coincides what the 'leadership' of the Guild in general beleives in? If that is truly the case then I seriously question the current leadership that this thread is undergoing.

Let me add my veiw, and yes it DOES matter what I think, seeing as I am one of the communtiy and a good portion of the current The Haven community is in agreement to this:

The most recent case of Belfa rightly pointing out that someone was not in guild and thus not really in a position to comment on current raiding/heroic status of the guild at that exact time. It is not an attack, it is a statement of fact. They are not in guild, how can they possibly comment in any way onto the raiding status of the guild? It is not an insult, it is a pure and actual fact that they cannot and thus should not have commited a comment that did nothing to answer the original question whatsoever and, as was pointed out in a later comment, completely and utterly wrong in the first place.

I do not beleive this was meant as an attack but more-overly along the lines of: 'who are you and why are you telling me stuff that is wrong?' That in itself is not wrong, in my veiw that is justified. The conext Belfa used in response even mentioned that he was not trying to be funny or even directly insulting but pointing out that his comment was wrong.

 

[Ronin Storm]

[mod]I think we've just hit a classic "omg, you can't tell me what to think" situation. In most such situations, what's required is a step back and taking some time to consider what was meant more than what was said.

Gives time for the OP to clarify their position when they may have stated something awkwardly, or (potentially) to affirm that they really do think that you and your thoughts don't matter and you should get back in your box.

Remember all: constructive, helpful, inclusive, respectful. Make attempts to understand. This is supposed to be fun.

I think my one all encompassing principle for posting to the net applies here: never post hot.[/mod]

 

[Peepee]

I love Lamp

 

[Gombol]

For the record, this forum is -NOT- just for "The Haven" guild, it's "GEneral World of Warcraft -AND- The Haven guild."

Just a quick quote from the forum description:

Both general World of Warcraft posts and stuff to do with The Haven guilds on Scarshield Legion.


So people's comments can be in general, or directed at The Haven, so don't assume it's always towards The Haven.