Conversely, threads that are about The Haven are, y'know, about The Haven regardless of the forum. Constructive, positive, helpful, etc all still apply.
You're Not In The Guild
- Thread starter Zooggy
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Zhinrak
In Cryo Sleep
For the record, this forum is -NOT- just for "The Haven" guild, it's "GEneral World of Warcraft -AND- The Haven guild."
Just a quick quote from the forum description:
Both general World of Warcraft posts and stuff to do with The Haven guilds on Scarshield Legion.
So people's comments can be in general, or directed at The Haven, so don't assume it's always towards The Haven.
No one is contradicting what this section of the forums are for, no one is contradicting that people are welcome to come in here and discuss general wow topics.
This is why i feel that this thread is pointless because no one specifically has a problem with people not in the guild posting here.
The problem is that in one example a thread that was specifically asking about the status of our guild was inappropriately answered. Yes the comment given may have been about other guilds and WoW in general and yes the comment may have even been true about them, how ever this comment had very little to no relevance to the question that was asked and did not answer it constructively and was unhelpful.
The second example has more relevance as it did raise a valid concern but it was expressed in a directly accusing and offensive manner, mainly as a result of speculation directly as a result of the person not being fully informed of the current situation or the situation they are speculating from.
This thread now makes it sound like we do not want people from outside of the guild in these forums which no one has said. I personally just ask that if it is a thread directly related to the status of our guild, that the comments and responses also stay on the topic of our guild or at the very least are expressed in a constructive and suggestive manner.
Razaak
Well-Known Member
Ronin, there's no need to drop in heavy-handed with MOD tags, when you've clearly not understood or appreciated the context or content of the thread.
Damn it, I hate saying this, but Zhinrak is 100% SPOT ON with everything he's said, and your ire would be better directed at people who only post in this sub-forum to stir things up, and are not and never will be part of the The Haven guild on Scarshield.
In response to the OP, sorry Zooggy but I think that in this case you're wrong. At least partly. As long as "You're not in the guild" is being used as a statement of fact and a reason why their opinion is NOT valid because they are not in a position to have the slightest clue about what they're spouting, then it's fine to say it.
If it's a general question about the game (which you just lost) or the WoW community in general, then all opinions are valid. If it's about The Haven - Scarshield Legion EU, then leave it to the members, kk?
Damn it, I hate saying this, but Zhinrak is 100% SPOT ON with everything he's said, and your ire would be better directed at people who only post in this sub-forum to stir things up, and are not and never will be part of the The Haven guild on Scarshield.
In response to the OP, sorry Zooggy but I think that in this case you're wrong. At least partly. As long as "You're not in the guild" is being used as a statement of fact and a reason why their opinion is NOT valid because they are not in a position to have the slightest clue about what they're spouting, then it's fine to say it.
If it's a general question about the game (which you just lost) or the WoW community in general, then all opinions are valid. If it's about The Haven - Scarshield Legion EU, then leave it to the members, kk?
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this. The main points here are a) don't attack people, and b) leave the moderating to the moderators.
Hey,
No. Anyone can say that. Hopefully, they should be prepared to counter with the correct information.
Yes. That's the Officers and the moderation team's job.
I trust you can see the difference.
Because I welcome this debate. I enjoy being questioned. It's how I get to analyse my own positions and other people's, and it's how we all grow.
I did have the power to close the thread after the OP, and possibly, tag it with mod tags. Except, that would have been rather sterile, and possiby ignored altogether. Maybe this was a mistake on my part, but what's done is done, and I'm not going to cut the debate short, unless it becomes well and truly abusive, which, so far, it hasn't.
No. Belfa's original post is actually pretty general. Sure, it can be reasonably inferred that it was about the guild. But the opposite interpretation is not that much of a stretch. Gombol's response, on the other hand, is patently a general response, and not about the guild in any way.
This, on the other hand, is just about the most egregious straw man attack I've ever seen. Re-read my posts, if you must. I never said it doesn't matter what you think.
Let me give you an example: I don't exactly know what you think of me. We have met personally, albeit briefly, and we were friendly enough with each other. But you might, for any reason, be under the impression that I'm an idiot. If you were to come out with a post saying I was an idiot and therefore had no right to say these things, that would be an inappropriate ad hominem attack. It doesn't matter that you believe that I'm an idiot, you still don't get to call me that to my face. Not in these forums, anyway.
Yes, I am saying that openly and publically dismissing someone's comments just because they are not in the guild is the same thing. Whether or not it was conscienciously meant as such, it is an attack on the credibility of the poster.
Cheers,
J.
No. Anyone can say that. Hopefully, they should be prepared to counter with the correct information.
Yes. That's the Officers and the moderation team's job.
I trust you can see the difference.
Because I welcome this debate. I enjoy being questioned. It's how I get to analyse my own positions and other people's, and it's how we all grow.
I did have the power to close the thread after the OP, and possibly, tag it with mod tags. Except, that would have been rather sterile, and possiby ignored altogether.
Maybe this was a mistake on my part, but what's done is done, and I'm not going to cut the debate short, unless it becomes well and truly abusive, which, so far, it hasn't.No. Belfa's original post is actually pretty general. Sure, it can be reasonably inferred that it was about the guild. But the opposite interpretation is not that much of a stretch. Gombol's response, on the other hand, is patently a general response, and not about the guild in any way.
This, on the other hand, is just about the most egregious straw man attack I've ever seen. Re-read my posts, if you must. I never said it doesn't matter what you think.
Let me give you an example: I don't exactly know what you think of me. We have met personally, albeit briefly, and we were friendly enough with each other. But you might, for any reason, be under the impression that I'm an idiot. If you were to come out with a post saying I was an idiot and therefore had no right to say these things, that would be an inappropriate ad hominem attack. It doesn't matter that you believe that I'm an idiot, you still don't get to call me that to my face.
Not in these forums, anyway.Yes, I am saying that openly and publically dismissing someone's comments just because they are not in the guild is the same thing. Whether or not it was conscienciously meant as such, it is an attack on the credibility of the poster.
Cheers,
J.
Velaphor
New Member
So people's comments can be in general, or directed at The Haven, so don't assume it's always towards The Haven.
Yes, but you can't talk about the inner workings of the The Haven and not be directing it directly at The Haven.
No one is arguing about not being able to post in the World of Warcraft forum but when you post in a thread about the way The Haven plans to run the guild on Scarsheild legion then you are no longer in the 'General zone' of the WoW forum.
In short, [mod] tags are the light touch. Infractions are the mid game. Bans are the end game. That was me playing nice. Apologies if that didn't come across that way.
Nactall
New Member
Gnnnnnn gnnn gnaaa damm its hard to say this
GNNNNNNN ...... you are spot on raz, nicely put. Not gona re-write what I agree with because raz wrote it down perfectly.Only this one because that is the core of the problem.
People who have nothing to do with stuff that happends in our guild should not add their opinions to it because we are quite a large guild and not everyone knows everyone anymore (at least not when you just joined the guild) so they may take your false opinions for granted and this only makes a bigger fuzz then is needed.
[Response]You're Not In The Guild
All I have to say to anyone and everyone, even if they wish to speak to us about The Haven guild ON SLL, is this:
Thank you for your input.
We welcome input regarding World of Warcraft. Especially if it is constructive.
Discussions regarding World of Warcraft is always fun to see. All I wish is that people are somewhat civil and constructive
Should anyone have any questions or concerns regarding the guild itself, feel free to send a PM and we will do our best to answer as soon as possible.
With that said, please do not try and read too much into what I just said.
This was not directed at anyone speciffic. This was merely meant as a sollution.
Added note: I sympathize with the officers. But also trying to be respectful towards members and guidelines. So I hope that nobody is offended by this post.
All I have to say to anyone and everyone, even if they wish to speak to us about The Haven guild ON SLL, is this:
Thank you for your input.
We welcome input regarding World of Warcraft. Especially if it is constructive.
Discussions regarding World of Warcraft is always fun to see. All I wish is that people are somewhat civil and constructive
Should anyone have any questions or concerns regarding the guild itself, feel free to send a PM and we will do our best to answer as soon as possible.
With that said, please do not try and read too much into what I just said.
This was not directed at anyone speciffic. This was merely meant as a sollution.
Added note: I sympathize with the officers. But also trying to be respectful towards members and guidelines. So I hope that nobody is offended by this post.
Ki!ler-Mk1
Active Member
A very interesting read (so much so, read it all), though does this mean that gombol would be allowed into The Haven? Since this whole affair seems to have been catalysed solely by his involuntary exclusion prior to making a post?
[Strike]As much as i enjoy a good time with the shit-stirring-stick.[/Strike] I have only ever been concerned with the treatment of someone i have spent alot of time playing games with as part of THN with regards to this issue.
[Strike]As much as i enjoy a good time with the shit-stirring-stick.[/Strike] I have only ever been concerned with the treatment of someone i have spent alot of time playing games with as part of THN with regards to this issue.
Peepee
In Cryo Sleep
I don't ever believe, ever that this has in anyway at all been about Gombol joining the guild.
Also this thread is just getting out of hand now, really its time to stop because all it is doing is evoking bad feelings. The only point I believe that anyone is trying to make here is be nice to fellow THNers and also choose your words well, when you are making a post in certain sections of the forums, make sure that what you are saying is in relation to the origional post and that it is an educated reply as in you know that it is gospel. Don't let yourself snowball it out of hand.
also the shit stiring stick is best left where it should be outside and out of the way
Also this thread is just getting out of hand now, really its time to stop because all it is doing is evoking bad feelings. The only point I believe that anyone is trying to make here is be nice to fellow THNers and also choose your words well, when you are making a post in certain sections of the forums, make sure that what you are saying is in relation to the origional post and that it is an educated reply as in you know that it is gospel. Don't let yourself snowball it out of hand.
also the shit stiring stick is best left where it should be outside and out of the way
Hoy,
This is incorrect. As I am fond of saying, once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. I think in patterns and dynamics, and it's this pattern that concerns me, not the specifics of any one particular incident.
I am, in fact, even more concerned (and somewhat surprised) that a number of people I hold in high regard and esteem seem to think the pattern is not only acceptable, but actually advisable...
But hey, that's the merits of debate, innit? Maybe they'll end up convincing me I'm wrong... though it's not looking that way so far.
I also want to address a point that Razz posted, that I cross-posted to and didn't get a chance to get to:
It's not the general user's job to publicly berate the validity of anyone else's opinion, for whatever reason. People have the right to have opinions and, as long as those opinions are not insulting and/or abusive, they have the right to air them.
And, to repeat myself once again, if anyone thinks any post is insulting and/or abusive, for whatever reason, that's what the Report Post button is for. It's that little red-bordered triangle thing with the black vertical line inside.
In other words:
QFT!
Cheers,
J.
This is incorrect. As I am fond of saying, once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. I think in patterns and dynamics, and it's this pattern that concerns me, not the specifics of any one particular incident.
I am, in fact, even more concerned (and somewhat surprised) that a number of people I hold in high regard and esteem seem to think the pattern is not only acceptable, but actually advisable...
But hey, that's the merits of debate, innit?
Maybe they'll end up convincing me I'm wrong... though it's not looking that way so far. I also want to address a point that Razz posted, that I cross-posted to and didn't get a chance to get to:
It's not the general user's job to publicly berate the validity of anyone else's opinion, for whatever reason. People have the right to have opinions and, as long as those opinions are not insulting and/or abusive, they have the right to air them.
And, to repeat myself once again, if anyone thinks any post is insulting and/or abusive, for whatever reason, that's what the Report Post button is for. It's that little red-bordered triangle thing with the black vertical line inside.
In other words:
QFT!
Cheers,
J.
G
Gombol
Guest
Whenever I post in the wow forums, it turns into this. You get used to it.
Hoy,
Another cross-post. Active thread FTW...
This is an excellent summary that integrates both sides very well! Thank you for this!
Cheers,
J.
Another cross-post. Active thread FTW...
This is an excellent summary that integrates both sides very well! Thank you for this!
Cheers,
J.
Windzarko
Well-Known Member
Nice attempted claim at martyrdom there. I'd personally have drawn a different conclusion...
Razaak
Well-Known Member
Sorry Zooggy, but no - and this is what's wrong with the intarwebz.
Not all opinions are valid; no amount of wishful thinking and idealism will ever make it so. Case in point - people outside of a guild, who have never been members of that guild, do not and cannot hold a valid opinion of how things are run in that guild.
Yes, they may have valid opinions and experiences of how things are run in their guilds, based on their own past experience, but that is of zero relevance. In that circumstance "you're not in the guild" is a relevant statement of fact.
I don't have any valid opinions on how stuff works in the Haven related EVE syndicates - whilst I played that game briefly, I was never a member. I can have an opinion, but it may well be a total pile of bollocks, and I'll rightly be called up on it.
Not all opinions are valid; no amount of wishful thinking and idealism will ever make it so. Case in point - people outside of a guild, who have never been members of that guild, do not and cannot hold a valid opinion of how things are run in that guild.
Yes, they may have valid opinions and experiences of how things are run in their guilds, based on their own past experience, but that is of zero relevance. In that circumstance "you're not in the guild" is a relevant statement of fact.
I don't have any valid opinions on how stuff works in the Haven related EVE syndicates - whilst I played that game briefly, I was never a member. I can have an opinion, but it may well be a total pile of bollocks, and I'll rightly be called up on it.
Huung
Well-Known Member
I vote we use a simple [Guild] tag or some such on all threads related specifically to The Haven guild of Scarshield Legion. This way people from outside of the guild can clearly see what is "general WoW stuffs" and stuffs related directly to the running of, or organisation of The Haven guild.
We could then avoid all of this mess about which threads people "can" or "can't" post in. If it has a [Guild] tag, then stay away unless you're in the guild. Simples
We could then avoid all of this mess about which threads people "can" or "can't" post in. If it has a [Guild] tag, then stay away unless you're in the guild. Simples
Ki!ler-Mk1
Active Member
I said "catalysed by", for me that has different meaning to "caused by".
If there is a discussion about the guild, why can't people outside the guild comment? They might have the exactly the sorts of ideas that improve things, and even if they miss the mark they're still providing discussion. That helps the community in all sorts of ways. As long as people are writing relevant, constructive posts their involvement should be encouraged, regardless of what their involvement with the guild is.
Hoy,
This is obviously true, and not just on the internet. That was pretty much the gist of Woogle's argument, by the way, so I guess it's no wonder you think he was 100% spot on. Unfortunately, however, it sidesteps my point entirely.
For. Whatever. Reason. Yes, even if it's the right reason. "Your opinion is not valid" is a reason. It may or may not be true. It's still not the general user's job to go there. That's why we have moderators.
And if it's not moderating, if it's actually a contributive point to the argument in the thread, then it's a damn bad one. Attacking the speaker instead of his words is bad rhetoric, even if it's true. In fact, especially if it's true.
Hmmm...
It occurs to me that I'm now just pretty much repeating myself, which is a more or less sure indicator that I'm sort of done with the thread. If any new or refreshing counter-arguments crop up, I'll make sure to address them, but other than that, my request stands. Each individual person is free to make of it what they will. For now, anyway.
Cheers,
J.
This is obviously true, and not just on the internet. That was pretty much the gist of Woogle's argument, by the way, so I guess it's no wonder you think he was 100% spot on.
Unfortunately, however, it sidesteps my point entirely.For. Whatever. Reason. Yes, even if it's the right reason. "Your opinion is not valid" is a reason. It may or may not be true. It's still not the general user's job to go there. That's why we have moderators.
And if it's not moderating, if it's actually a contributive point to the argument in the thread, then it's a damn bad one. Attacking the speaker instead of his words is bad rhetoric, even if it's true. In fact, especially if it's true.
Hmmm...
It occurs to me that I'm now just pretty much repeating myself, which is a more or less sure indicator that I'm sort of done with the thread. If any new or refreshing counter-arguments crop up, I'll make sure to address them, but other than that, my request stands. Each individual person is free to make of it what they will. For now, anyway.
Cheers,
J.
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