I'm speechless.

PsiSoldier

Well-Known Member
The mother's health is at risk. The twins lives are at risk. During child birth, the mother may die, the twins may die. All three of them may die. The twins may be born with severe health problems and have a very low quality of life.

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but; if the child and/or mother are at risk and the child may be born with health problems, they should abort?

If you're trying to justify killing (Yes, killing, not the panzy-ass "aborting" so many people hide behind), be it to save another or not, you need your head examined.

silkth said:
So every time a guy t0sses off, is he murdering thousands of unborn children?

A foetus is life, where the "thousands of unborn chidren" are just the potential for life. On their own, they are no more alive than an unfurtilised chicken egg.
 

KillCrazy

Active Member
If there is such a high risk then yes I do believe they should abort. It's justifying killing because of this high risk and the effects it could have on everyone if the birth is to go ahead.

I also don't appreciate you saying to me, and to the majority of people who have replied to this thread who agree with what I am saying, that we need our head examined. If you want to continue any such discussion of that nature with me, then feel free to PM me. From now on, I am not replying to any of your posts on this forum.
 

DocBot

Administrator
Staff member
Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but; if the child and/or mother are at risk and the child may be born with health problems, they should abort?

The point I was sort of trying to make with this post, is that the position where all abortion (+/- contraceptives) is murder, and as such always morally wrong - is indeed an extreme position. The conviction that at the point of fertilisation, a life - morally and ethically equal to any other - begins, looks rather absurd from a "common sense" point of view.

I could perhaps accept the point of view that this would be murder, and as such unacceptable, from a person who is also an absolute pacifist - i.e. no wars, turn the other cheek, never ever is killing another human being anything other than murder - but if the same person (as is often the case in my experience) also condones wars, preemptive strikes, etc, then they'd have to make a better case for it than I've heard so far. And I've heard a few.


PsiSoldier28 said:
If you're trying to justify killing (Yes, killing, not the panzy-ass "aborting" so many people hide behind), be it to save another or not, you need your head examined.

Ah, good. Then you are one of those absolute pacifists? I am almost on that side, -
PsiSoldier28 said:
A foetus is life, where the "thousands of unborn chidren" are just the potential for life. On their own, they are no more alive than an unfurtilised chicken egg.

- with the exception that I do value different lives differently. As do all societies. Already we pour a hell of a lot more money and resources into saving the life of a child than we would to save that of an elderly. Same goes for prolonging life - a few days is deemed more important for the nine year old than for the ninety year old. And I agree.

And most importantly, the life of a nine-year old raped girl is more important than the potential lives (conceding the point that they already have a life, but I'm talking of the future life, here) of two 15-week old foetuses. IMHO.
 

DocBot

Administrator
Staff member
With reservations for faulty internet facts:

The roman catholic church will (has?) excommunicate all involved in making the abortion happen.

Yes, forgiving indeed.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
And most importantly, the life of a nine-year old raped girl is more important than the potential lives (conceding the point that they already have a life, but I'm talking of the future life, here) of two 15-week old foetuses. IMHO.

This I cannot agree with, just because it's considered to be only "potential" for two lifes doesn't make it any less forgiveable to kill it. I can see where a lot of you guys are coming from, and I'm for abortion when it's the lesser of two evils, and only then, and so it follows that I am for abortion in this case, as it's pretty clear that if all 3 of them are killed, it's a lot worse than if only two of them are killed.

I'm catholic, but I will not, and cannot agree with the views expressed by these catholic representatives, I'm sorry, but if that little girl were to have died during childbirth and the twins as well because the doctors who performed the abortion hadn't because they were "religiously concerned" is as good as murder by the church, and in my honest opinion, they would have been held accountable.
 

Ronin Storm

Administrator
Staff member
Simply: if there was a situation where there was an older child and two babies who might die, would it be right to kill one or both of the babies to save the older child? Why?

That would depend on a lot of factors that a simple scenario can't easily capture.

It's one of the sorts of questions I pose during character creation for a table top role-playing game to get players thinking a bit about where their characters stand on the "back to the wall" issues.

e.g.

So, a lunatic has a gun to your head and you have to make a choice; flip the switch to the right and your best friend dies; flip it to the left and ten people you don't know die. What do you choose? What if it were a thousand people? A million?

The value judgement can sometimes be identical and sometimes vary according to the enormity of the problem. Some are happy with the 1:10 trade because "it's their best friend" but when the numbers become many magnitudes larger then there seems to be an intrusion of social responsibility.

To my mind, this is one of those debates where there is a discussion to be had at the individuals level (i.e. you, me, some other gal we know) and another to be had at the community level (i.e. the UK, or Western Europe, or the entire world) and the answers differ depending on what level you have the discussion at. What works for you and me doesn't necessarily work when we apply it to people we don't know and perhaps don't trust.

At an individual level, I'm firmly pro-choice. Were I a woman and pregnant, through any vector, I want the choice to carry that foetus to term or to abort the pregnancy. Similarly, if faced with a threat that leads me to believe life or limb are in danger I reserve the right to intervene with force, up to and including deadly force.

At a community or population level, I'm less comfortable with that position because of the potential for abuse by people I do not know and thus do not trust (working on the principle that trust is earned not given as a default). Thus, I'd not be comfortable with my approach to the use of deadly force being applied widely, for example.

It seems to me that there's no one answer to cover all situations, though some principles could probably be drummed up to be applicable to many situations. Note: principles not rules, as I'd be looking for guidance (i.e. consider trying this or that) as opposed to legislative constraint (i.e. you must not do this and you must do that).

In this case, I believe that the most correct action was to save the life of the child at the expense of the nascent lives of the foetuses, purely through a practical application of triage: better to save one and lose two than lose all three. That would be an application of a principle "save as many as you can". Of course, it's a game of probability where game is not used to make trivial but simply to raise awareness of the lottery that all such decisions are made within. The girl would probably have died trying to give birth, if not before. The babies would probably have died during birth. Of course, there may have been the tiniest chance that all would have survived and lived happily ever after. I wonder what the actual chances of that last happy ending were really? Vanishingly small, I expect.

We're all playing with fire constantly, whether we realise it or not. Walking down the street is a calculated (low) risk. Having a baby is another risk (more dangerous than the street? not sure...). I think we probably just try to make the best of what we can in the lottery of "what'll happen next?" Grandstanding about it afterwards just seems such a waste of time and effort.
 

Macca

Member
I can't believe some peoples views on abortion are so black and white. Every case is different, it's not as simple as "your killing a baby it's wrong".

Decky101 said:
This I cannot agree with, just because it's considered to be only "potential" for two lifes doesn't make it any less forgiveable to kill it.

I disagree. I'm sure a lot of you might disagree with what I have to say however it is my opinion. This girl has been alive for 9 years. She is consciously aware of herself, her surroundings. She has felt happiness and sadness, experianced joy and pain, she loves people, people love her. The foetuse has not felt happiness and sadness, experianced emotions, hasn't got any emotional bonds to anyone or anyone to it (In a certain sense. The person carying the foetus may have a bond to it, however I'm only talking about sever cases such as this one).

Now some of you might say: yes it hasn't had these experiances yet, but by aborting you are taking away it's chances to have this. I am not denying this point. All I'm saying is that in such extreme cases like rape or health risks, things aren't as black and white as "If you abort you are a killer, or a bad person!". In these extreme cases I would argue that the life of the female carrying the baby is more important.

Can i just re-emphasise that what I'm talking about is extreme cases like rape or health risks. If someone willingly has unprotected sex and there are no health risks, then things have to be reconsidered.
 

PsiSoldier

Well-Known Member
Just throwing this out here, at what point in a person's life does their 'value' (how much effort would be put to save them, what their life is worth to save) stop increasing from birth, and start decreasing?
 

Nanor

Well-Known Member
I am incredibly eager to hear the thoughts of the Vatican now. As Bradstreet mentioned earlier women are more than "biological instruments for the reproduction of the species". This girl would almost certainly have died during childbirth. I would be surprised if she would get far into the pregnancy. This also brings into the fray the arguement of the girl having to be reminded of what happened to her every time she looks at her children.

Bluntly, it boils down to kill or be killed. If those fotuses were not killed then most likely they all would have died. Who here, in that girls position, would not do the exact same thing? Lose two things which are, at the moment, no more than parasites created from pain and live and perhaps live a happy life or most likely die.

The girl deserves a future and no person has the right to deny it.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
Mac, if you read further on in what I said, I iterated that I am completely against what the Catholic view on this situation is, I, by no means agree with the killing of something that cannot defend itself, but this is a matter of logical thinking. If all three were to die at the time of birth, then it would be surely be worse than if only two of them died? Put it in perspective, multiply the number by 1 million. Surely it's better if 2 million die rather than 3? It's true that if there was a 100% chance that all 3 would survive, my view would be quite different, but I don't believe that the risk should be taken based on the minute possibility that the babies might survive.

And in answer to your question Psi, I believe in total and absolute equality, at no point should one be considered less valuable than another, as it's my feeling that at one point we were/will be at that same point and so I don't think you can decide who is more or less valuable.
 

Gizmo-5

In Cryo Sleep
I will have no words with anyone who says this is murder.

That makes you just as bad as them

The abortion was performed for best survivability. There is no doubt in my mind *and im no doctor* that a girl of 9 years couldm't have healthy twins and stay undamaged, let alone look after them.

This was not murder, they all would have died anyway, and anyone who argues that this was indeed murderous and unneccesary should contemplate this simple fact. 1 life and 2 unbirths versus 3 deaths.

It is a cruel decision, but a decision that had to be made nonetheless.

I do find that churches position very unreasonable, especially on the trauma placed on this girl, who is now being accused of murder for her right to survive. But Brazil, as that article said "Has the most catholics in the world" and "abortion is wrong" is a catholic stance, it is not to be unexpected, and to condemn their culture is incredibly ignorant.

It has always been my opinion that careless abortion is wrong, that there are times when we must take and play lifes cards, especially when life is involved. However in this situation i can see clear justification in the actions taken.

I think the easy answer to this is not to rape our 9 year old stepchildren.
 

Nanor

Well-Known Member
A quote from Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re:
Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian Church is unjustified

Yes, let's severely endanger three children with the outcome most likley being death rather than kill two.

Frankly, I'm ashamed to be a Catholic.
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Frankly, I'm ashamed to be a Catholic.

Denounce your religion; I have a(n ex) Catholic friend who did it a few years ago and now feels alot better about moral stances on issues like this. Then again, he isn't Irish, so there isn't quite the same pressure I suppose.
 

Zaggu

In Cryo Sleep
To be honest, I have turned away from the Catholic Church as an institution a while ago. I don't believe in any institution that claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ while blatantly contradicting them over the course of history, and while the rather conservative John Paul II had continued that tradition, it was Mr. Ratzinger who put the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned, by not only allowing but stimulating the perpetuation of prejudice as the modus operandi, as his views regarding homossexuals, to name but one, demonstrate.
 

Silk

Well-Known Member
I honestly don't think any guy has a real right to say a girl shouldn't abort. Often they lack the ability (or imagination?) to put themselves into not only a girls shoes, but a frightened, pregnant girls shoes.

Pregnancy in itself can be pretty terrifying if the girl doesn't want to be in the situation (especially putting up with all the anti-abortion groups).

Add to that rape? Then it's a no-brainer.

Add to that very likely death through child birth? See previous statement and multiply by 100.

Add to that, that the kids would (probably) die anyway? See previous statement and multiply by another 100.

If you had a cancerous growth inside you, which would likely kill you, and someone told you not to remove it because it's life and it has a right to grow - what would you think about that?

The only downside to abortion is that it takes away a child's chance to be born. But it's all a mystery anyway - do you think you've taken away that persons only chance to ever live on this planet? Did he/she have a soul yet anyway? Do any of you remember being in the womb? Because it's all such a vast unknown, I don't think anyone has any right to set any rules around it. It involves a woman, it involves her body, her entire being, and everything up until actual birth should be completely her decision.

If I got raped and fell pregnant I'd abort, without question. And I'd have nothing but contempt for anyone who accused me of being a murderer.
 

Gizmo-5

In Cryo Sleep
I believe that careless abortion leads to a careless attitude towards human life, the fact that it is HUMAN life should not be forgotten.

Look at it this way, do vegetables have a soul? (by vegetables i mean those in a vegetative state) what about the older generations who are starting to lose their marbles.

And if we say that they are indeed a lower form of human life, and that becomes the accepted trend, whats to say in a few generations that we dont start exploiting this. Grandads going senile and you cant afford to keep him? Hes had a long life, hes not the same person anymore, lets have him put down and harvested.

My opinion has nothing to do with religion, but there are some things that we shouldnt be allowed to have control over, because careless extermination of unwanted babies will certainly bring out the worst in us, and will lead to worse to come.

Of course this situation called for that to be overruled on a pure mortality rate, something which i do not begrudge in the slightest. But the trend for casual abortion should not be encouraged, and dehumanisation of feotai (new word for you there) i find a bit sickening.

so to reiterate - The church is wrong (these doctors and child are sinful murderers) and for the wrong reasons, the casual (abortion should not be encouraged) opinion of the church is right, but for the wrong reasons.
 

PsiSoldier

Well-Known Member
Words

If you had a cancerous growth inside you, which would likely kill you, and someone told you not to remove it because it's life and it has a right to grow - what would you think about that?

Sorry, are you comparing a human baby to cancer? Whisky-tango-foxtrot...

The only downside to abortion is that it takes away a child's chance to be born. But it's all a mystery anyway - do you think you've taken away that persons only chance to ever live on this planet? Did he/she have a soul yet anyway?
[spacer]
It involves a woman, it involves her body, her entire being, and everything up until actual birth should be completely her decision.

More words

This all depends if you believe in "souls". Technically, yes; you have taken away that person's only chance on this world. Each person is unique, made from 2 unique parts.

On the second part; so the father has no control over what happens to his legacy, bloodline, child?
 

Bradstreet

In Cryo Sleep
On the second part; so the father has no control over what happens to his legacy, bloodline, child?

I'm with Silkth on this one. Do I think that in the majority of cases the father should be part of the discussion and part of the decision-making process when it comes to dealing with an unwanted / unexpected pregnancy? Of course. Do I think that any man has the right to force a woman to carry his child to term if she doesn't want to? No.

I'm also curious about the idea of a trend towards careless abortions, mentioned by Gizmo-5. Apart from the image of 'careless' abortions being pretty horrific, I would be interested in seeing any figures to support the idea of this trend. And what is a 'casual abortion'? Is it one where you wear sweatpants and a hoodie while it's happening? Or when a pregnant woman is passing an ob-gyn and pops in to terminate her pregnancy on a whim? In other words, I think this decision is a very serious, and very painful, one for the vast majority of those who go through it.
 

Gizmo-5

In Cryo Sleep
I'm with Silkth on this one. Do I think that in the majority of cases the father should be part of the discussion and part of the decision-making process when it comes to dealing with an unwanted / unexpected pregnancy? Of course. Do I think that any man has the right to force a woman to carry his child to term if she doesn't want to? No.

I'm also curious about the idea of a trend towards careless abortions, mentioned by Gizmo-5. Apart from the image of 'careless' abortions being pretty horrific, I would be interested in seeing any figures to support the idea of this trend. And what is a 'casual abortion'? Is it one where you wear sweatpants and a hoodie while it's happening? Or when a pregnant woman is passing an ob-gyn and pops in to terminate her pregnancy on a whim? In other words, I think this decision is a very serious, and very painful, one for the vast majority of those who go through it.

There is definately a trend for people who are just being careless with their contraception, or careless in general to just pop in and get it aborted. Surely im not being a sexist pig implying that an abortion of a perfectly healthy baby in a perfectly healthy mother should not be aborted because you "dont want it"

And i know people who have had this done, and i know people who say that they would have this done if the situation arose.

There are lots of things in life we dont like doing but have to do. And personally i dont like the idea of killing someone just because it dosent suit me.

Its this wierd kind of idea that its "your" person, like you have a right to choose wether it lives or dies, which i find truly disturbing and inhuman in perfectly intelligent people, who believe it is their right to "have whats best for them" at any cost.

But i dont want to come across like a radical nutcase, and i believe ive argued the case material to the point where i cant really take it any further, so i guess ill leave it at that ;)
 
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