One of the best things about Cataclysm...

[Silk]

Also, I don't understand people wanting HC's to be harder. You have a natural progression of Normal>Heroic>10/25 man normal>10/25 man hard.

You have your challenges in the game already. You out-levelled the easy stuff.

If you tried it with ilev 200 and below, you'd struggle and not steamroll through it.

So tbh, if they make HC's harder all it'll do is mean some players, some good players (not just bad ones!), have plenty of inacessible content. Like raids are to me right now - because I don't have the time to stay up due to work. HC's would become the same - need time and effort to arrange a guild group with the correct classes and capable players. Not log in, hit random pug and yay I get my own chance to get some badges albeit at a much slower rate than you get raiding.

You have your challenges already, indeed raid content I'm sure is more vast than 5 man. So why do you need to make *everything* hard mode? Let there be casual content, for casual players. It's not all to do with skill, some of us are very restrained with when we can play and for how long.

 

[Angelic]

/agree with Nactall, we have ways of limiting CC breakage. Like, once mobs are pulled with CCs you only throw Consec down after all is CCed. Or using Avenger. Or simply moving those that are supposed to be tanked AWAY from the CCed. Or, instead of Consecing the shit out of everything before the mobs even come to you perhaps Righteous Defending them off a team-member that has them aggroed, thus making only the ones to be tanked run towards you without the need to do any actual AoE damage. The possibilities are plentiful and I'm thrilled to experience such test of skills.

Given, some PUGs might struggle, but I'm sure Blizzard knows about that and will deal with it appropriately.

 

[Silk]

/agree with Nactall, we have ways of limiting CC breakage. Like, once mobs are pulled with CCs you only throw Consec down after all is CCed. Or using Avenger. Or simply moving those that are supposed to be tanked AWAY from the CCed. Or, instead of Consecing the shit out of everything before the mobs even come to you perhaps Righteous Defending them off a team-member that has them aggroed, thus making only the ones to be tanked run towards you without the need to do any actual AoE damage. The possibilities are plentiful and I'm thrilled to experience such test of skills.

Given, some PUGs might struggle, but I'm sure Blizzard knows about that and will deal with it appropriately.

Have all the challenges you want.. in raids. Let casual players have quick, accessible content with slower/smaller rewards than raids. e.g. Exactly as wotlk is now.

Again I have no idea why you'd complain HC's are too easy - they weren't when you first hit 80. And you have plenty of end game content now that you've out-geared the HC's.

 

[Angelic]

Have all the challenges you want.. in raids. Let casual players have quick, accessible content with slower/smaller rewards than raids. e.g. Exactly as wotlk is now.

Again I have no idea why you'd complain HC's are too easy - they weren't when you first hit 80. And you have plenty of end game content now that you've out-geared the HC's.

I don't think people want heroics to only be difficult. I think they want them to scale with gear a bit so that even high-end geared people will have to pay SOME attention. Mind you, I enjoy current "pull all and AoE" state of things... I don't know, maybe there is some middle ground? 5-man "raids" that can be done once per week? I don't know...

 

[Nactall]

Have all the challenges you want.. in raids. Let casual players have quick, accessible content with slower/smaller rewards than raids. e.g. Exactly as wotlk is now.

Why would a big part of the players only have the real fun in the game in raids that happen on some of the the evenings?

Again I have no idea why you'd complain HC's are too easy - they weren't when you first hit 80. And you have plenty of end game content now that you've out-geared the HC's.

Read what I have typed and rephrase please else this discussion is going nowhere

 

[Huung]

Have all the challenges you want.. in raids. Let casual players have quick, accessible content with slower/smaller rewards than raids. e.g. Exactly as wotlk is now.

Again I have no idea why you'd complain HC's are too easy - they weren't when you first hit 80. And you have plenty of end game content now that you've out-geared the HC's.

That sounds fine to me, provided the "daily" heroics are removed. At the end of the day the big problem for the harder-core players is the casual players obtaining raid gear just from running a bunch of heroics. By all means, let the casual players have their easy heroics, but don't let them earn raid gear for it - keep the raid gear in the raids.

Heroics should only ever provide badges/emblems which can buy pre-raid gear, equal to the gear from the first 10man raid content imho. This would not only encourage people to move up the ladder of raids, do the lower content to get themselves geared (if they want to gear up a new character half-way through an expansion), but would make people think twice before trying to have multiple raiding characters. Raid gear should be worth something, epics should be just that - epic.

Another system could be unlocking new ilevels of badge gear, based on the player's current average gear ilevel. However, this wouldn't solve the problem of heroics being too easy, but would remove the casual, "heroics only" players from attaining raider's gear levels purely through heroics.

Either method solves at least one of the two problems I have with heroics, and both are definitely implementable. Doubt we'll see either though

 

[Nactall]

Also, I don't understand people wanting HC's to be harder. You have a natural progression of Normal>Heroic>10/25 man normal>10/25 man hard.

Basicly the natural progression is:

Dungeons: Lower lvl dungeons >> Normal dungeons >> Heroic dungeons
10 man raids: Lowest lvl raid 10 man >> Highest lvl raid 10 man
25 man raids: Lowest lvl raid 25 man >> Highest lvl raid 25 man

There are 3 groups here because heroics are on a daily basis you do em with friends pugs anything you like to do. Raids are also two groups because 25 man progression stands apart from the 10 man progression for various reasons.

And progression wise dungeons and raids have nothing to do with eachother. If only the one gives gear for the other but well then you can link the whole game together.

So just because raids are challenging heroics should not be forgotten, they have to find a middle road in all this that the players that like challenge and players that want everything posted to their mailbox can both find their ways in heroics and raids. Well imo they hit the right spot in TBC so I hope they will look at this for the next expantion.

 

[Silk]

That sounds fine to me, provided the "daily" heroics are removed. At the end of the day the big problem for the harder-core players is the casual players obtaining raid gear just from running a bunch of heroics. By all means, let the casual players have their easy heroics, but don't let them earn raid gear for it - keep the raid gear in the raids.

Heroics should only ever provide badges/emblems which can buy pre-raid gear, equal to the gear from the first 10man raid content imho. This would not only encourage people to move up the ladder of raids, do the lower content to get themselves geared (if they want to gear up a new character half-way through an expansion), but would make people think twice before trying to have multiple raiding characters. Raid gear should be worth something, epics should be just that - epic.

Another system could be unlocking new ilevels of badge gear, based on the player's current average gear ilevel. However, this wouldn't solve the problem of heroics being too easy, but would remove the casual, "heroics only" players from attaining raider's gear levels purely through heroics.

Either method solves at least one of the two problems I have with heroics, and both are definitely implementable. Doubt we'll see either though

Are you kidding me? I've been running heroics since I re-subscribed and thus far have eben able to obtain ONE piece of frost gear. It's two badges a day.. how on earth can you moan about that when the items cost 60 badges-90 badges each? That's 30-45 days for ONE FLIPPING PIECE!!!

God.. some people.. *facepalm*

 

[Angelic]

Are you kidding me? I've been running heroics since I re-subscribed and thus far have eben able to obtain ONE piece of frost gear. It's two badges a day.. how on earth can you moan about that when the items cost 60 badges-90 badges each? That's 30-45 days for ONE FLIPPING PIECE!!!

God.. some people.. *facepalm*

Plus there is weekly raid that is puggable and always first/second boss so not time-consuming. Plus there are ICC pugs that take what, 3 hours? and clear the first wing, thus providing you with 8 badges if you don't do the weekly ICC-specific quest in there. Oh and there is ICC25 pugs that are just like the 10man versions. And there's VoA, the half-an-hour raid for 2 frosts and 251/264 tier pieces. Getting frost-level gear is not difficult. On my best geared character, Angelic, I have so far killed Festergut twice and Rotface once and that's it, nothing else past puggable 1st wing of ICC. And still, I have several 251s, a number of 264s and 89 frost emblems waiting to be spent.

Seriously, it's quite easy to get high-end gear without even being in a raiding guild (or any guild, for that matter).

Silk, indeed if you ONLY run heroics, you're not gonna get much end-game gear. But if you try even A LITTLE, it's there and up for grabs.

This, however, is a diversion from the topic at hand

 

[Huung]

Are you kidding me? I've been running heroics since I re-subscribed and thus far have eben able to obtain ONE piece of frost gear. It's two badges a day.. how on earth can you moan about that when the items cost 60 badges-90 badges each? That's 30-45 days for ONE FLIPPING PIECE!!!

God.. some people.. *facepalm*

Nonetheless, daily heroics are the easiest way to get frost badges, and with the weekly raid being PuGable in almost all cases, that's an easy 19 frost a week. VoA10/25 is another 4, so you've got half a piece of That's 4 piece T10 in 5 months, so yeah, it would take you a while, but it's achievable by the end of Wrath.

It's not just frost though which annoys me, it's triumph being from heroics now, when triumph purchases high level raid gear. People who just want to run casual heroics don't need that, and people who want to raid shouldn't be given it that easily.

 

[Silk]

Silk, indeed if you ONLY run heroics, you're not gonna get much end-game gear. But if you try even A LITTLE, it's there and up for grabs.

This, however, is a diversion from the topic at hand

Angie.

The first time I "tried a LITTLE" this so called PUGGABLE raid content you speak of, was in a group you were part leading. First of all you and one other complained I didn't have enough hit points (in full 232+ gear, which is all I can get pre-raid), and people then continued to wipe all night (which was nothing to do with me as I left after the first wipe, feeling rather deflated that the very best gear I could obtain pre-raid wasn't "good enough").

Raids are not puggable via dungeon finder either. They're not quick to jump into.

Again I remind you time constraints are the issue for some players - an hours organising a raid on our server is about 1/3 of my total wow time in one night.

 

[Silk]

Nonetheless, daily heroics are the easiest way to get frost badges, and with the weekly raid being PuGable in almost all cases, that's an easy 19 frost a week. VoA10/25 is another 4, so you've got half a piece of That's 4 piece T10 in 5 months, so yeah, it would take you a while, but it's achievable by the end of Wrath.

It's not just frost though which annoys me, it's triumph being from heroics now, when triumph purchases high level raid gear. People who just want to run casual heroics don't need that, and people who want to raid shouldn't be given it that easily.

Raid gear is infitely better than 232 triumph gear.

People who can't raid for whatever reason don't deserve to be punished by having their "end game" be ilev 200. It seems selfish that you think there should be no "alternative progression" in the game for casual players / those that can't commit to raiding all night. If that were the case I might as well just quit at 80, can't get any upgrades!

May I remind you that we all pay the same subscription for wow, casual or not, skilled or not.

And your example of frost emblems is still infinitely slower than raiders get them, and also not realistic (I've managed one weekly raid in past two months, and zero VOA runs - casual players have time constraints, do I need to repeat this til it sinks in?). And if you quote the likes of VOA 25 the you are saying not only should casual players not get badges, but they shouldn't get them for doing a fairly difficult 25 man raid (assuming they don't wipe all night, which from experience happens a lot)?!

In other words, I think you're saying that the only players who should have any kind of end game reward/progression are those who can raid the hardest instances, 12+ hours a week?

It's all a flawed argument anwyay. If you took away the 232 rewards then where do you recruit new blood from? Good luck gettng a tank if the best pre-raid gear they can get is ilev 200 (lol). Guess you'd have to run them through naxx a few times, and repeat this for every new player you get since in your world, it's impossible for them to get any reasonable raid level gear beforehand.

 

[Angelic]

Raid gear is infitely better than 232 triumph gear.

People who can't raid for whatever reason don't deserve to be punished by having their "end game" be ilev 200. It seems selfish that you think there should be no "alternative progression" in the game for casual players / those that can't commit to raiding all night. If that were the case I might as well just quit at 80, can't get any upgrades!

Noone is suggesting that heroic dungeon gear is to NOT be an upgrade from normal dungeons. What is a shame, though, is older raids being rendered useless when heroics give you much better gear than even Ulduar 25 - I suppose what Huung is suggesting is having heroics drop epic ilvl200 gear and then people wanting to raid ICC having to run through Naxx, EoE, Uld AND ToC.

This however can't happen, realistically, if the Blizz plan (which I agree with) is to show the high-end content to everyone. I like that I can see second wing of ICC without being in Aftermath or any guild that would raid that content for a year after it has been released.

Question is, what kind of progression are you after if you can only do heroics anyway? There's not much progression there, is there...

As for the raid pugs - curious, I have tanked first wing of ICC10 effortlessly with 232 ilvl gear (full badge without the badge trinket and ICC heroics gear), one 219, two 200 trinkets and the frost cloak. Maybe it's about itemization? Stacking stam and all that.

 

[Silk]

As for the raid pugs - curious, I have tanked first wing of ICC10 effortlessly with 232 ilvl gear (full badge without the badge trinket and ICC heroics gear), one 219, two 200 trinkets and the frost cloak. Maybe it's about itemization? Stacking stam and all that.

You know it isn't all about the tank, right?

I currently have 40k hp unbuffed and suspect I'd sail through ICC10 too. If all other 9 players were any good that is - that's a big IF my dear. Also I'm assuming by pug you mean server pug, as the raid finder never seems to do anything for me.

Do I have time to wait around for a group that may/may not be fit for the instance? Nope, but I wish I did.

Heroics are currently the only progression some people have. Even a couple of frost emblems is better than nothing. If I didn't have that, I'd probably have nothing to play for right now.

And the idea that players should run through all lower level raids before the higher ones is a glaring example of tunnel vision. You think because you had to do it, then so should others. In that case I want you all to run MC40 for months on end (at level 60) before you even talk to me about Naxx.

You seem to be forgetting that triumph gear allows us as a guild to have a trickle of new recruits as and when we need them. There's the odd player who has raided in a prior guild so already has epixx, but more often than not you'll get guys just wanting to start out raiding. And you don't want to be in the situation where you have to turn down potentially good players because we as a guild don't have the time to run them through prior raids (which lets face it, we don't - or would you really be willing to re-run naxx etc. a few times for your new recruits every single time?)

Triumph gear is good for casual players and good for raiding guilds. It means everyone can get entry-level gear for any raid instance. And surely that's a good thing.

The "trickle feed" of frost emblems is surely there for casual players, like me, who can't raid as much as they are willing and able to. I deserve progression too. I pay for wow too. In fact my payment per hour is a lot more than those who have the time to raid in the first place.

 

[Nactall]

You know it isn't all about the tank, right?

I currently have 40k hp unbuffed and suspect I'd sail through ICC10 too. If all other 9 players were any good that is - that's a big IF my dear. Also I'm assuming by pug you mean server pug, as the raid finder never seems to do anything for me.

Do I have time to wait around for a group that may/may not be fit for the instance? Nope, but I wish I did.

Heroics are currently the only progression some people have. Even a couple of frost emblems is better than nothing. If I didn't have that, I'd probably have nothing to play for right now.

And the idea that players should run through all lower level raids before the higher ones is a glaring example of tunnel vision. You think because you had to do it, then so should others. In that case I want you all to run MC40 for months on end (at level 60) before you even talk to me about Naxx.

You seem to be forgetting that triumph gear allows us as a guild to have a trickle of new recruits as and when we need them. There's the odd player who has raided in a prior guild so already has epixx, but more often than not you'll get guys just wanting to start out raiding. And you don't want to be in the situation where you have to turn down potentially good players because we as a guild don't have the time to run them through prior raids (which lets face it, we don't - or would you really be willing to re-run naxx etc. a few times for your new recruits every single time?)

Triumph gear is good for casual players and good for raiding guilds. It means everyone can get entry-level gear for any raid instance. And surely that's a good thing.

The "trickle feed" of frost emblems is surely there for casual players, like me, who can't raid as much as they are willing and able to. I deserve progression too. I pay for wow too. In fact my payment per hour is a lot more than those who have the time to raid in the first place.

No its not ALWAYS the tank indeed but it CAN be the tank sometimes. If shit happends and the group is shit I always look to myself first and make sure im on the top of my game before I put the blame on other people. I have no clue what it is in your case because I have not seen you in action for a wile But in your add about icc and sailing straight trough, this will be the case for the 1st 4 bosses indeed and maybe festergut but the rest of the bosses need quite a lot of practice or gear.

Well tbh if someone here has problems with tunnelvision it is you, why would blizzard listen to a minority in the players data base (estimated about 10%) who can only do heroics and whant awesome epics from that wile not putting much time in and dont want any challenge in it because even cc is to much to ask. Hereby comes that if you give those heroic bosses the best epics in the game this WILL fuck over raiding, which a majority plays.

Agreed the 232 gear gives players a nice for step in players agreed with you on that. But this 232 is already a bit to high of a lvl, why not give them start raid gear and make raids more viable for that. When you look back at TBC then you see that this worked fine because raids where not THAT gear dependend.

 

[Elincia]

why would blizzard listen to a minority in the players data base (estimated about 10%) who can only do heroics and whant awesome epics from that wile not putting much time in and dont want any challenge in it because even cc is to much to ask. Hereby comes that if you give those heroic bosses the best epics in the game this WILL fuck over raiding, which a majority plays.

I don't know about the 10%, but I think this is where the painpoint is! Blizzard has to pick between casual gamers and hardcore gamers.

But Silk don't fear, we are The Haven, we will help guildies even though we need to run people through lower raids. And we aren't that hardcore either...

Also try to keep it nice people

 

[Silk]

No its not ALWAYS the tank indeed but it CAN be the tank sometimes. If shit happends and the group is shit I always look to myself first and make sure im on the top of my game before I put the blame on other people. I have no clue what it is in your case because I have not seen you in action for a wile But in your add about icc and sailing straight trough, this will be the case for the 1st 4 bosses indeed and maybe festergut but the rest of the bosses need quite a lot of practice or gear.

Well tbh if someone here has problems with tunnelvision it is you, why would blizzard listen to a minority in the players data base (estimated about 10%) who can only do heroics and whant awesome epics from that wile not putting much time in and dont want any challenge in it because even cc is to much to ask. Hereby comes that if you give those heroic bosses the best epics in the game this WILL fuck over raiding, which a majority plays.

Agreed the 232 gear gives players a nice for step in players agreed with you on that. But this 232 is already a bit to high of a lvl, why not give them start raid gear and make raids more viable for that. When you look back at TBC then you see that this worked fine because raids where not THAT gear dependend.

232 Isn't too high for ICC, which is pretty much all that raiding guilds are running right now. Very few guilds would be willing to backtrack to older raids to assist their newer players if that's how it had to work. And news flash, that non-guilded newer player can't miraculously conjure up 9 (or 24) other players (who are competent!) to help them get through the older raids.

Heroics don't give the best epics in the game. Bar ICC and TOC, they give ilev 200. And with tokens, ilev 232 - with an ilev 264 about once a month. As for wanting epics for putting less time in. I'm not sure you throught this statement through - I actually have to run more HC's, over a longer period of time, to get rewards that you can pick up from randoms drops in next to no time.

e.g. For about one hour per day (less for some instances) over 30 days I can get a 60 badge frost item. That's 20-30 hours for one of the cheaper frost items. I suspect you get your rewards a tad sooner than that?

You're saying that because you can dump large chunks of time into wow i.e. 4-5 hours per sitting, then you should get everything sooner. Well congrats, because that's exactly how the game works now. It already penalises casual play by making everything non-raid take longer.

I can live with that. But now they want to penalise casual play even more, which is absurd. I already have "nnngh" groups as it is, with the almost guaranteed DK in full blues, clueless what to do and doing a fraction of my DPS (I'm a tank). I can only imagine the tears of blood I'll be crying once I actually need this level of player to use CC.

 

[Silk]

I don't know about the 10%, but I think this is where the painpoint is! Blizzard has to pick between casual gamers and hardcore gamers.

But Silk don't fear, we are The Haven, we will help guildies even though we need to run people through lower raids. And we aren't that hardcore either...

Also try to keep it nice people

This is the whole point though, they don't have to pick. They got it just right in wotlk, with it taking AAAGES for a casual player to get the real nice stuff, lots of smaller chunks of playtime over a much longer period of real life time.

And in the meantime the raiders get almost instant rewards from drops as well as token buyables.

So imo it's already as it should be, and making casual content harder is not a good move when casual content mainly relies on pugs which always have at least one badly geared and clueless player.

And as much as I'd like to believe your last statement, if I were to ask for an Ulduar run to get slightly better gear than I have now before doing ICC, I know for a fact it wouldn't happen. Thankfully my gear is good enough for ICC though, because heroics have allowed me to gear up - I rest my case!

 

[Peepee]

Angie.

The first time I "tried a LITTLE" this so called PUGGABLE raid content you speak of, was in a group you were part leading. First of all you and one other complained I didn't have enough hit points (in full 232+ gear, which is all I can get pre-raid), and people then continued to wipe all night (which was nothing to do with me as I left after the first wipe, feeling rather deflated that the very best gear I could obtain pre-raid wasn't "good enough").


The best thing you can do it have off spec gear, if you took healing off spec you would get into more raids quicker. After all you are a paladin you have healing spec. My alt druid has 3 sets of gear healing tanking and dps, yeah it took time to get it, but its just a little grinding. And like someone else said just doing those extra raids. Which aren't hard to get into and yes sometimes do suck ass but thats just the way it is.

 

[thatbloke]

um, one thing I thought I'd mention - the looking for raid tool is NOT cross-realm like the dungeon tool. It can only create raids from people on the same realm.

There are two very valid arguments here, and I think that constantly trying to push your own argument across as the ONLY way that things should be done is not correct. Both trains of thought here are valid ways of seeing and playing the game and is why WoW is now the massive behemoth that it has become.

Additionally, remember that we haven't even SEEN any of Cataclysm's content and we won't until it's released (or if you like spoilers you could go in the beta...) but until that point and until we actually start seeing some of this stuff for real, I think that the above debate should be put on hold - I think that it is perhaps close to taking a turn for the nasty, and none of us want that.