The EU thread
- Thread starter Taffy
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Re: 1.2 patch information and 2 new booster packes, euro force and armoured fury deta
Bear in mind that fraud is a superset that contains counterfeiting crimes. It's fraudulent to not pay or pay insufficient income tax and it's fraud to claim disability benefit when you're perfectly fit and able. So only a percentage of that figure is lost to counterfeit notes.
Taffy said:
Bear in mind that fraud is a superset that contains counterfeiting crimes. It's fraudulent to not pay or pay insufficient income tax and it's fraud to claim disability benefit when you're perfectly fit and able. So only a percentage of that figure is lost to counterfeit notes.
Taffy
New Member
Re: 1.2 patch information and 2 new booster packes, euro force and armoured fury deta
I understand that, but what i'm saying is that the EU should exist, but as a TRADING UNION. The thing that annoys me is that the powers that be in Brussels believe that they should be able to rule over every country in the EU and their laws should over-ride that countries laws. All i'm saying is that I can't see that working, you can't treat every country the same. Some countries may be happy for some EU laws to work in their countries, but others won't. The other problem is some of the laws that the EU brings into place are entirely ridiculous. For example, they set quotas on fishermen fishing in European waters. The result? The fishermen have to chuck huge amounts of dead fish back into the sea. If you want to control the amount of fishing that goes on, you cut down on the numbers of fishermen. They fishermen can't control how many fish swim into their nets, can they?
Gibsonfire said:
I understand that, but what i'm saying is that the EU should exist, but as a TRADING UNION. The thing that annoys me is that the powers that be in Brussels believe that they should be able to rule over every country in the EU and their laws should over-ride that countries laws. All i'm saying is that I can't see that working, you can't treat every country the same. Some countries may be happy for some EU laws to work in their countries, but others won't. The other problem is some of the laws that the EU brings into place are entirely ridiculous. For example, they set quotas on fishermen fishing in European waters. The result? The fishermen have to chuck huge amounts of dead fish back into the sea. If you want to control the amount of fishing that goes on, you cut down on the numbers of fishermen. They fishermen can't control how many fish swim into their nets, can they?
Re: 1.2 patch information and 2 new booster packes, euro force and armoured fury deta
The EU exists beyond the scope of a trading union, though. Deep sea trawling causes exceptional damage to seabed ecosystems. The EU could theoretically pass laws against deep sea trawling, that took effect across the EU and impose sanctions on member states that do not conform to the edict. The result? Hopefully less ecosystem damage through destructive fishing methods. Could this be done individually? Yes. Is it likely that individual states would do this separately and in a timely fashion? No. Central governance has advantages when attempting to have an impact on issues that affect the wider community.
The issues we're seeing with the EU feel to me to be a result of "partial membership". If we take what we can and sod the rest then what is the effect on our wider community? Don't we have a responsibility both to our environment, ourselves and our neighbours? Don't we, indeed, have a responsibility to all inhabitants of this little blue world? While we practice divisionist mechanisms where responsibility and interest and influence stop at our borders we create gaps in which destruction is born. Who owns the bit of sea between Norway and Britain? Where do the lines of control stop? If I fish right on the edge of that line, is that okay, even if it destroys the ecosystem for a mile either side? Because we lay claim to our own "bit" of the world and don't fully participate in even the bits that are our immediate neighbours we don't answer these issues, just push them into an arena of political bickering and further divisionism.
Clearly, a unified state of Europe would bring its own issues too...
Taffy said:
The EU exists beyond the scope of a trading union, though. Deep sea trawling causes exceptional damage to seabed ecosystems. The EU could theoretically pass laws against deep sea trawling, that took effect across the EU and impose sanctions on member states that do not conform to the edict. The result? Hopefully less ecosystem damage through destructive fishing methods. Could this be done individually? Yes. Is it likely that individual states would do this separately and in a timely fashion? No. Central governance has advantages when attempting to have an impact on issues that affect the wider community.
The issues we're seeing with the EU feel to me to be a result of "partial membership". If we take what we can and sod the rest then what is the effect on our wider community? Don't we have a responsibility both to our environment, ourselves and our neighbours? Don't we, indeed, have a responsibility to all inhabitants of this little blue world? While we practice divisionist mechanisms where responsibility and interest and influence stop at our borders we create gaps in which destruction is born. Who owns the bit of sea between Norway and Britain? Where do the lines of control stop? If I fish right on the edge of that line, is that okay, even if it destroys the ecosystem for a mile either side? Because we lay claim to our own "bit" of the world and don't fully participate in even the bits that are our immediate neighbours we don't answer these issues, just push them into an arena of political bickering and further divisionism.
Clearly, a unified state of Europe would bring its own issues too...
Taffy
New Member
Re: 1.2 patch information and 2 new booster packes, euro force and armoured fury deta
Ah, it sounds like bliss...
Unfortunately, humans don't work like that. They are greedy in nature, something that drove out minds to advance and better himself in early times, but also led to the demise of that theoretically speaking wonderful thing called COMMUNISM (colour added for effect
) Indeed we do have a responsibility to our planet, but surely it would also be a good idea to give Governments the power to over-rule EU laws if they do not fit the Country well. Then there should be some system of monitoring the ways these powers are used and sanctions imposed on those who abuse these powers? It's all so bloody complicated...
Ronin Storm said:
Ah, it sounds like bliss...
Unfortunately, humans don't work like that. They are greedy in nature, something that drove out minds to advance and better himself in early times, but also led to the demise of that theoretically speaking wonderful thing called COMMUNISM (colour added for effect
) Indeed we do have a responsibility to our planet, but surely it would also be a good idea to give Governments the power to over-rule EU laws if they do not fit the Country well. Then there should be some system of monitoring the ways these powers are used and sanctions imposed on those who abuse these powers? It's all so bloody complicated...
Gizmo-5
In Cryo Sleep
Surely a european union would allow us to eventually lower taxes and better monopolise industry, The yankies are currently the worlds empire at the mo due to the fact that 1) they live off their media, and invest government money in there own industry, this can be seen in the abrahams M1A2 and the M16A2 which are american made but completely useless, their government however buys them supporting its own industry 2) most other countries owe them hoooooge somes of money from WW2 3) they are saving their oil reserves, so when asian and middle eastern oil runs out, they can sell us oil and tons of squids!
China making a break for it on the inside due to their mass workforce, and sheer determination.
The European Union could mean that policing could be much more co-operative, immigration would be much more controlled, laws would be standardised, and due to the cuts in immigration and the mass collective wealth of the countries taxes would be thus lowered and thinks would become cheaper, the euro would then become inherit world currency making our banks even stronger.
Just because were part of team europe dosent make us any less whatever we were before, just means we have bigger friends
China making a break for it on the inside due to their mass workforce, and sheer determination.
The European Union could mean that policing could be much more co-operative, immigration would be much more controlled, laws would be standardised, and due to the cuts in immigration and the mass collective wealth of the countries taxes would be thus lowered and thinks would become cheaper, the euro would then become inherit world currency making our banks even stronger.
Just because were part of team europe dosent make us any less whatever we were before, just means we have bigger friends
gringotsgoblin
In Cryo Sleep
DocBot said:
Sorry to join this debate late. Before I begin I would like to say that I'm actually vaguely pro-EU.
For some basic monetary facts go here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/europe/04/money/html/who_pays_what.stm
The countries you would expect to be paying more are. However, can you see little old Luxemburg sat there as a net TAKER from the EU budget.
OK, I hear you say, but Luxemburg probably needs the money. Perhaps there is widescale poverty... A quick check on Google shows that the average income per person is 62,000 US dollars. The highest in the world...
Could someone (Anyone!)...explain why Sweden ($29,000) Germany ($29,000) France ($29,000) or Britain ($29,000) should be giving Luxemburg any money?
And (on a separate point) why should we be supporting French farmers?
Someone made the point that Britain as an island depends on importing its food. That's true. But if we were to stop subsidising the *inefficient* European farms and buy our food from Africa (or wherever), we could save money AND support Third World countries. I'm sure Ghana would prefer to earn its money through the cocoa trade than for Europe and America to use protectionist trade policies which cripple its agriculture industry and then throw money at them every so often as 'aid' - but only if you comply with what we want!
Of course those areas which Europe can farm efficiently we would keep - but they dont require any subsidy, because they're *efficient*.
As for the legal side. Sure the EU pass stupid laws every so often, but then that's governments. Someone made the point that you need a body that doesnt have any national ties to make some decisions (such as deep sea fishing) and I agree.
Of course the government that makes the laws should be democratically elected... And the members of the Commission are 'appointed' and tend to be political flunkies from the member nations. This I do not agree with. If the EU is to become a political institution (and not jsut a trade union) then it should be democratic. Why have a parliament if it has no teeth? If I can vote for my parish councillor who organises the grass on the verge outside my house to be cut, why cant I vote for the Commissioner who organises how many hours a week I work?!
And as an aside, if the EU is about merging cultures, why are France and Germany(?) not so keen on Turkey joining. Obviously Turkey's human rights are not so good, but that isn't the reason they always give! As Turkey's human rights improve the argument has turned to: Turkey's culture (as an Islamic state not Christian) is imcompatable with the Europe...
This is not the European spirit in my opinion
S
Gibsonfire
In Cryo Sleep
Im sorry for bringing this thread up again (just as the taliban thread is getting intresting) but I found a very intresting article on wikipedia outlining the new 'European Constitution' (that france and holland rejected).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Constitution
L
LynxGB
Guest
Sweden I am affraid contribute hardly anything according to my sources!
I quote from bbc.co.uk "Germany, with the largest economy in Europe, made the largest gross contribution in 2004.
It also made the largest net contribution - the amount a country pays in to the EU budget minus the amount it gets back in the form of EU spending."
I would also like to point out this graph for 2004 - CLICK HERE
As for the GNI the Netherlands pay the most at 194 euros per capita!(0.68%)
But what does that really matter? We pay in total a hell of a lot more - who cares what sums you use to get there? Thats like saying well 10 of us went to the pub and spent £50 each we spend more than you? Wrong its the 50 blokes who spend £5 who spend more!
On the other hand, if the rebate had been abolished, the UK would have become the biggest net contributor as a proportion of GNI in the period 2008-13.
The two biggest "£juicers" of the EU are France & Spain. France take all the money from CAP & then chirac that pratt avoids people seeing this by shifting blame of his country not getting anything and spending more by trying to shaft the UK, when it's actually France that are shafting the EU!
I quote from bbc.co.uk "Germany, with the largest economy in Europe, made the largest gross contribution in 2004.
It also made the largest net contribution - the amount a country pays in to the EU budget minus the amount it gets back in the form of EU spending."
I would also like to point out this graph for 2004 - CLICK HERE
As for the GNI the Netherlands pay the most at 194 euros per capita!(0.68%)
But what does that really matter? We pay in total a hell of a lot more - who cares what sums you use to get there? Thats like saying well 10 of us went to the pub and spent £50 each we spend more than you? Wrong its the 50 blokes who spend £5 who spend more!
On the other hand, if the rebate had been abolished, the UK would have become the biggest net contributor as a proportion of GNI in the period 2008-13.
The two biggest "£juicers" of the EU are France & Spain. France take all the money from CAP & then chirac that pratt avoids people seeing this by shifting blame of his country not getting anything and spending more by trying to shaft the UK, when it's actually France that are shafting the EU!
eh, what you just did was say "hey look what I found! It's the same thing you said, but with less official sources! wohoo!"
and also resurrect a dead thread
I never said sweden pays more than anyone else, I did however say _swedes_ pay more. And there's a difference there.
And I guessI can just keep saying this, pointing to good sources of information and NOONE WILL EVER FUCKING LISTEN:
FRANCE PAYS MORE THAN THEY GET BACK. same as england. pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasePLEASE check the sources I've linked to before you reply here.
and if you're talking facts then I want links to sources.
EDIT: sorry for stupid harsh words, I'm not myself due to the flu atm. will close this thread after you've replied lynx
and also resurrect a dead thread
I never said sweden pays more than anyone else, I did however say _swedes_ pay more. And there's a difference there.
And I guessI can just keep saying this, pointing to good sources of information and NOONE WILL EVER FUCKING LISTEN:
FRANCE PAYS MORE THAN THEY GET BACK. same as england. pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasePLEASE check the sources I've linked to before you reply here.
and if you're talking facts then I want links to sources.
EDIT: sorry for stupid harsh words, I'm not myself due to the flu atm. will close this thread after you've replied lynx
L
LynxGB
Guest
Yeah - lol - Not to worry! I understand your points of view! But at the end of the day we all pay over the odds for being part of the EU! lol !
Well it was a very interesting thread to say the least! Good to have a good debate now and then!
Lynx -
Well it was a very interesting thread to say the least! Good to have a good debate now and then!
Lynx -
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