What's Next on Haven Raiding

[Razaak]

"Raid organization/leading has been shit."

That's surely pointed at the raidleader right?

Yep, but it's somewhat fucking ironic coming from someone who signs up as yes and then doesn't show.

FACT - The Haven has got the Lich King nearer to dead that any of Burrick's raids. Yes, I've been along with Burrick once with an alt, and thoroughly enjoyed it, and there is certainly something we can learn from those runs. However, it's now causing problems with our raiding, and if you're a Raider or Trial Raider with our guild, then that should be your priority, full stop. Community, alts, do what you like with our full blessing, but raiders taking action like this means that other people are waiting to see if a raid happens and then wasting time when it doesn't. That's plain selfishness and lack of respect.

I don't in any way blame Burrick - as I said, I enjoyed my raid with him, but sadly people have taken advantage of that to the detriment of our own efforts. The blame for that lies squarely with them, not Burrick.

 

[Razaak]

Just to add - any raiders who would rather raid with someone else, the door is that way --->

 

[Gidean]

I fail to see the point in that comment Raz, im quiet sure everyone knows the way to the door when raiding is concerned....as most of our well geared people have already found said door, opened it and fucked off to a proper raiding guild that has a better set up. So maybe instead of ultimatums, lets work on the problem instead.

Raiding right now in the Haven is not what it should be , Why is that? and what can we do to make it better?

 

[Nactall]

Just to add - any raiders who would rather raid with someone else, the door is that way --->

I agree with this completely, if you are a raider with the Haven then the raiding with the Haven should come first. If you dont want to be a raider with the haven and rather raid with other people, do that but dont expect us to keep you as a raider for the Haven team. We can not build on people who just get themselves locked to a different raid and cant raid with us for a whole week.

About the "raidleading is shit part" we had a good raid lead team, Sasser and me as his second. This went pretty well for a few months but after those 3 months I took my break. The reason for this was a lot of shit with school and other rl stuff and repeatetly getting shit trown at me from a lot of our members because I took a lot of the raiding and other guild problems on my shoulders and this was just to much to combine. For the Sasser part, he now has a damn fulltime job so he can not contribute as much as he used to be. He is still does a damn good job in handling the raiding and combining this with his job and other rl stuff. The solution for this would be nominating someone that backs Sasser up when he has less time on hand for a certain raiding day, this happends now already but not consistantly and this would be helped if we just point one (or two members) who do this every time.

If we want to get this raiding issue sorted then start contributing instead of just trowing dirt (or even shit) at people. Some ppl who are complaining are veterans or long time members, get your fucking act together and try to help out.

 

[Dr Drae]

As somebody who's been away from really raiding for a fair length of time, feel free to disregard anything I say, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

As somebody who's not as well geared as, for instance, the groups Burrick might want to take along to LK, I'm disadvantaged by it. The lack of people who can carry the deadweight like me through, and help me learn the fights, gain the gear etc, means that I'm incapable of ever reaching that level.

Of course, I accept that a large portion of that is my fault, but it's still a problem.

On the other hand, Burricks raids are the only raids that (I hear) seem to have the right stuff to beat this barrier. Burrick is essentially employing the T-Bone practice of the 'elite group'. Which I've got no problems with. But I'd rather it was said, so that everyone knows where they stand. All the raiders who are serious about raiding, but didn't make the team, can go PuG it, or do it with friends, (as Pugging seems to be getting it down better than us at the moment).

It's a tough decision, but that's my 2 pennies. FU cents.

Also, Burrick, your first post could have been just a bit more eloquent, no?

 

[midgert]

I dont agree with raz the people that wanted to leave have left, and the people that are not completely enjoying or comfatable with haven raiding like myself are doing these other events if this was a massive problem this should have been dealt with earlier and in a more mature fasion not people screaming and shouting.

I want to prefer to go to haven raids and if i dont enjoy them whats the point. I agree with masia in the fact that we need eliteism/elitesm/elitesim (cant spell it, and half the other words in this post) and people need to be told when they are doing stuff wrong . /kiss

 

[Belfa]

Draetec: As somebody who's not as well geared as, for instance, the groups Burrick might want to take along to LK, I'm disadvantaged by it. The lack of people who can carry the deadweight like me through, and help me learn the fights, gain the gear etc, means that I'm incapable of ever reaching that level.

Not gonna lie I feel the same way on all 3 of my 80's

 

[Zooggy]

Hoy,

Warning: long post is long. If you can't be bothered to read it, that's fine. However, don't bother to post, either.

Right. A lot of drama has surfaced here, indicating there's a lot of hurt feelings that have been festering under the surface.

First things first.

The four bosses I put up at the top of the post, they're my goal for the remainder of this expansion. I want to do every single one of them before 4.0 hits.

So, in case anyone was wondering, there will not be a halt to raiding, as far as I'm concerned.

Now that that's out of the way:

im being referred to as a "side event" nice one zooggy

This is down right idiotic. I know you, Burrick. I consider you a friend and you have my trust. I thought it was mutual, but if you seriously thought my post was aimed at you, of all people, and that you're being put down for "trying to help", then I clearly don't have yours.

But, since clarification is needed, my post was aimed at people who claim to want to raid with The Haven, then neglect to sign up for the raids and go and get themselves locked out, by PUGging or raiding with you.

To everyone else, you either want to raid with us, and want to work on making things work, or you don't. If you don't, Community rank is for you, if you want it. If you don't even want that, then /gquit is currently not bugged at all. Me, I hope you choose to stick around, as if you're reading this, chances are I like you, personally. But if you leave, I'm not going to cry.

But, if you do want to raid with us, then don't be the guy randomly PUGging or pestering poor Burrick to take you along on what is, in fact, a side event.

the only reason i have been taking people along with me (and i dont just take haveners) is because each week i get whispered by ALOT of people asking me to make a raid this week as they dont wanna raid with the haven (for lots of reasons)

This. If you want to raid with The Haven, don't be the guy doing this to him. If you don't, say so. We'll be happy to keep you as Community, and come Cataclysm, it's not going to cost you any. We're not here to buy, or judge people on, loyalty.

im not gonna turn those people away who wanna have some fun raiding, it is not my fault your raiding has gone so wrong and why soo many people have left or just stopped playing as a result of that

Both of these are true, so, QFT. That said, however:

if your raids are so desireable how come we can take alot of your so called "lesser players" and get further than you can with half the fucking around and moaning??

One, I never said they were, just that I want them to be, and two, this is downright false. We don't need you at all for a 10/12 in two hours' playing time, as we've just demonstrated to ourselves today, and we've gotten further on the LK than your raids have.

sort it out.

That's what I'm doing.

Well last night i only took 3 people from the haven, so if that cripples raiding then you are all fucked

Yes. Yes, we are. We're taking a stand and turning it around, though.

The only reason i have been taking people to icc10 is to help out your guild

Ah! In that case, stop now. You're not helping the guild at all. However:

You've been doing the right thing, mate. It may damage Haven raids, but a lot of Haveners go to your ones, and those people are succeeding and having fun.

QFT. You are helping a few people who are having fun along with you, which is cool. By all means, help them. Just don't be under the misguided impression that you're helping the whole of the guild.

By the way, I want to second Lith's words. I love raiding with you. I always did.

nice pace, little mucking about that interfered with what we were doing, and we annihilated 10 out of 12 bosses in that one evening. That's what I want to see our main raid groups doing a bit more often...

Well, you'll be happy to hear that that's what we did today, then.

whats the point no-one is gonna listen or understand so dont worry im off.

I wish people would stop being so passive-agressive. Seriously, everyone, when was the last time that I ever "didn't listen" to anyone?

I have been to one of Burricks LK runs, and some of the Haven runs and i think that i have better chance of downing the LK in one of Burricks runs at the moment.

If you truly think that, you need to look at the track record again. The Haven's been to the LK all of three times, now, and we've brought him down further and further with each attempt. No, it hasn't been the exact same people every time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing either. We need people that know the fight well, if we're to have any chance at him.

Seriously, people, Thursday is Lich King day. If you want in on it, sign up and be ready. And don't be all "what's the point of signing up if I'm not going to get a spot". Part of being a team player is knowing how to cheer form the bench.

one week we have got to beginning of phase 3 and if we continued the following week with the same group of people we most probaly would of killed him by now

Yes, well. I notice you weren't signed up for the Thursday after...

It's fine, I'm not chastising you or anything, I'm just asking you to look at the facts with an honest and open mind, and take stock on whether you really and truly want to be a part of a committed team.

we're falling apart raid-wise because we've got to LK and just trying to down him through sheer persistance. If we want to down him we need to use T-Bone's awesome tactic of elitism, as I remember a similar situation back when Ulduar was chewing us up and spitting us out.

I can't help but agree with this, but, you know what, we have that. We do have those people. You're one of them, in fact.

Seriously, people, it comes down to trust. You either trust that we know what's going on and that we want to pull this off, or you don't. If you don't, we'd like to be informed of it. If you do, then start damn acting like it. Kay?

I expect to see everyone signed up for next Thursday.

Cheers,
J.

 

[Belfa]

Hoy,

Warning: long post is long. If you can't be bothered to read it, that's fine. However, don't bother to post, either.

Right. A lot of drama has surfaced here, indicating there's a lot of hurt feelings that have been festering under the surface.

First things first.



So, in case anyone was wondering, there will not be a halt to raiding, as far as I'm concerned.

Now that that's out of the way:



This is down right idiotic. I know you, Burrick. I consider you a friend and you have my trust. I thought it was mutual, but if you seriously thought my post was aimed at you, of all people, and that you're being put down for "trying to help", then I clearly don't have yours.

But, since clarification is needed, my post was aimed at people who claim to want to raid with The Haven, then neglect to sign up for the raids and go and get themselves locked out, by PUGging or raiding with you.

To everyone else, you either want to raid with us, and want to work on making things work, or you don't. If you don't, Community rank is for you, if you want it. If you don't even want that, then /gquit is currently not bugged at all. Me, I hope you choose to stick around, as if you're reading this, chances are I like you, personally. But if you leave, I'm not going to cry.

But, if you do want to raid with us, then don't be the guy randomly PUGging or pestering poor Burrick to take you along on what is, in fact, a side event.



This. If you want to raid with The Haven, don't be the guy doing this to him. If you don't, say so. We'll be happy to keep you as Community, and come Cataclysm, it's not going to cost you any. We're not here to buy, or judge people on, loyalty.



Both of these are true, so, QFT. That said, however:



One, I never said they were, just that I want them to be, and two, this is downright false. We don't need you at all for a 10/12 in two hours' playing time, as we've just demonstrated to ourselves today, and we've gotten further on the LK than your raids have.



That's what I'm doing.



Yes. Yes, we are. We're taking a stand and turning it around, though.



Ah! In that case, stop now. You're not helping the guild at all. However:



QFT. You are helping a few people who are having fun along with you, which is cool. By all means, help them. Just don't be under the misguided impression that you're helping the whole of the guild.

By the way, I want to second Lith's words. I love raiding with you. I always did.



Well, you'll be happy to hear that that's what we did today, then.



I wish people would stop being so passive-agressive. Seriously, everyone, when was the last time that I ever "didn't listen" to anyone?



If you truly think that, you need to look at the track record again. The Haven's been to the LK all of three times, now, and we've brought him down further and further with each attempt. No, it hasn't been the exact same people every time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing either. We need people that know the fight well, if we're to have any chance at him.

Seriously, people, Thursday is Lich King day. If you want in on it, sign up and be ready. And don't be all "what's the point of signing up if I'm not going to get a spot". Part of being a team player is knowing how to cheer form the bench.



Yes, well. I notice you weren't signed up for the Thursday after...

It's fine, I'm not chastising you or anything, I'm just asking you to look at the facts with an honest and open mind, and take stock on whether you really and truly want to be a part of a committed team.



I can't help but agree with this, but, you know what, we have that. We do have those people. You're one of them, in fact.

Seriously, people, it comes down to trust. You either trust that we know what's going on and that we want to pull this off, or you don't. If you don't, we'd like to be informed of it. If you do, then start damn acting like it. Kay?

I expect to see everyone signed up for next Thursday.

Cheers,
J.

Fair fucking play Zooggy.
Have a cookie!!

 

[Chumpo]

The only problem with quoting every part of someones post individually is that by seperating it it can lose its flow and meaning, and im sure its probably annoying to not have your original message understood as it should be.

Also; what i would say is that if its true what im reading/hearing that <The Haven> has got the LK to a lesser % of health than Burrick's raids in the past it doesnt neccessarily mean that it has more chance of downing him in the future! It appears to me that The Haven's raids have gotten (a lot) worse and Burricks raids have gotten (a lot) better, were this level of deteriation/improvement to continue then its safe to assume that Burricks raids have a far better chance to kill the LK.

Im not really bothered tho, just thought i would throw another angle in there

 

[Sasser]

The only problem with quoting every part of someones post individually is that by seperating it it can lose its flow and meaning, and im sure its probably annoying to not have your original message understood as it should be.

Also; what i would say is that if its true what im reading/hearing that <The Haven> has got the LK to a lesser % of health than Burrick's raids in the past it doesnt neccessarily mean that it has more chance of downing him in the future! It appears to me that The Haven's raids have gotten (a lot) worse and Burricks raids have gotten (a lot) better, were this level of deteriation/improvement to continue then its safe to assume that Burricks raids have a far better chance to kill the LK.

Im not really bothered tho, just thought i would throw another angle in there

I totally agree with all of the above. But you need to know that our best LK attempt is only three weeks old; now bearing in mind that because of the guild meet we basically took a break last week, its almost like it was last night, so thats where we stand now, and can come back to if those that helped us to get that far stop deserting us left and right.


Edit: Having re-read Zooggy's long post is long for the 12th time I have to disagree with the first part of your post Jamie. All the Zenmaster did was to (ab)use Multi-Quote as a debatably more or less elegant way to make clear which part of the conversation he was referring to...

 

[Sasser]

So, in case anyone was wondering, there will not be a halt to raiding, as far as I'm concerned.

And besides, QFT.

 

[Burrick]

Good luck on your raiding attempts, but im afraid after this thread i have seen alot of peoples true colours and wish to have nothing to do with you, its amazing that those that you thought were your friends fuck you over when the chips are down.

That aside, as i said good luck in getting LK down

 

[Zooggy]

Hoy,

The only problem with quoting every part of someones post individually is that by seperating it it can lose its flow and meaning, and im sure its probably annoying to not have your original message understood as it should be.

Actually, that's a fair point. There are actually forums out there that have a standing policy against line-by-line quoting, to protect against just that. So, if the quoted people feel that I was inelegant or distorted your meaning, I hereby apologize.

It appears to me that The Haven's raids have gotten (a lot) worse and Burricks raids have gotten (a lot) better

Never having been to one, I can't comment on part b of this statement. Part a, however, is a gross exageration. Yes, we've hit a few hiccups, but like I said, every one of the three attempts at the LK was better than the one before. I hardly call that "getting worse".

Cheers,
J.

P.S. Yes, I did separate your post into two, but they were two rather distinct subjects, so there!

 

[Sabbath]

Hoy,

Yes, we've hit a few hiccups, but like I said, every one of the three attempts at the LK was better than the one before. I hardly call that "getting worse".

Out of the 3 attempts it was like 2nd attemp 36% and the attempt after that not even past phase 1.

 

[SwampFae]

[Response] What's Next on Haven Raiding

Out of the 3 attempts it was like 2nd attemp 36% and the attempt after that not even past phase 1.

Right. So by not mentioning first attempt, is it safe to assume that it was not as good as second attempt?
If so, that alone is progress
If third attempt was not as good as the second attempt, could it have been due to people being tired?

Curious cat is curious now, miao


As for the topic of raid leading: I have tried this. And it can be hell to raid lead, to be honest. Takes a bit of skill and a World of Patience

 

[Dr Drae]

Okay, all we're doing here is identifying, and then arguing, and then re-identifying that Burrick's raids have might will have going to have been maybe more successful. This is a waste of time.

We need to collaborate the efforts of Burrick's main raiders, with those of the guild. If we're all going to stand under the banner of <The Haven>, then why are we standing on seperate sides of the same flag?

We're looking at the past to try and fix the problems that are happening now, and will affect our future. But now that we've figured out that there could be a few reasons why we are in this state, we've got to stop looking at the past, and start looking at what we're going to do now.

If this means taking the most experienced raiders to ICC, then go for it. Couldn't care less. Because we did this during Ulduar, and it worked. I know that we're a good enough guild, that once we get this done, the wealth of experience etc that we gain from having done it once will be spread around the guild, helping to drag the deadweight like me through it.

I know Zooggy started this thread with good intentions; in order to attempt to bring our guild raiding back up to what it used to be, so props to him for doing so.

I know Burrick started his ICC runs also with good intentions for the guild. And in the start, it was most likely a world of help. But now that it's starting to destabilise the guild, it's a problem.

And Burrick, there's no need to take everything here as a personal flame war against you. We're all trying to have a civilised debate about the future of the guild's raiding. We're not calling you out on anything.

 

[Burrick]

Fair enough draetec and you are right about the raiding bits, but i see what people are saying a different way and yes i am taking it personally and for reasons im not gonna debate here, people have made it very clear that im no longer a part of this guild so i will not be interfering anymore

 

[Birdy]

I warn you this post maybe completely hypocritical but it is honest as of now.


When I came back from a long break, I was aware I needed to do a lot of work to be raiding in the main raid group.

One night I got bitchy because I couldn’t go!

Then we were fine and I was lucky enough to be in the main pack often and we made massive progressions. Not new bosses but more people able to do basic and further bosses than before. We had a good group of about 20 people who could do up to blood wing and beyond in ICC

Then people started to get near to LK and started getting envy.

What annoyed me was they way it was handled by the leaders.

I don’t have an issue with taking the top 10 players (TBone style) IF we are getting no where and average groups are just not cutting it. BUT YOU MUST GIVE THEM A TRY.

I think a fair amount of dirty laundry airing is happening here and I take the blame for cracking the flood gate that night.

DO NOT LET THIS RUIN WHAT IS ONE OF THE BEST GUILDS AROUND!!!!

The Haven is a long standing place of warm and fuzzy fun. I’ve been with you on and off for 5 years (since day 0) so I’ve been through it all.

You will not get on with everyone and you will all have a different take on things. Having a guild like this is about being able to see a path that you all, in some way, agree on and walking together. There may be some times when you nip off for a quickie behind a tree (I mean that in anything other than Haven raiding. It’s not offensive it just works well with my story! And hey, its fun!) At the side of the path but that’s fine as long as you know where your path and the goal you walking to are.

This is a game, ironically, and although sometimes its less fun than others you have to put in to get out. If I’m not online and raiding, I will miss you all and fall behind.

All these people posting are good Haveners and in your heart I’m sure you would love to see a 10man Haven LK death.

Go learn, get gear, work hard and kill him.... TOGETHER!!!!

One thing I must add. I have looked alto of you in the eye and hugged you tight. I love you. You are my real friends WOW or no WOW. There are people on here and on TS that I feel the same about even without skin on skin contact.

When you LOL on TS or in /g with people.... remember these people and yourself make the guild what it is... no one else

 

[Dr Drae]

One thing I must add. I have looked alto of you in the eye and hugged you tight. I love you. You are my real friends WOW or no WOW. There are people on here and on TS that I feel the same about even without skin on skin contact.

-Sniff-

...

BLAM.

But seriously, that.

Fair enough draetec and you are right about the raiding bits, but i see what people are saying a different way and yes i am taking it personally and for reasons im not gonna debate here, people have made it very clear that im no longer a part of this guild so i will not be interfering anymore

AFAIK, nobody has expressed that they don't want you around anymore. Obviously I'm a bit out of the loop, so if something has been said, then fine. But nobody in this thread has stated that they don't want you around, or that we don't appreciate the help you've given.

However, when we come to this point, collaborating the great efforts you've made, with the efforts of the guild is the best choice for the guild. You've done a lot to help our raiding team progress, so you have definitely helped, but I think the general consensus is that we'd like to have that raiding as Haven raiding.

I've always known you to be a good member, and have enjoyed times with you on TS etc, so it would be a shame to see you leaving the guild over something which is essentially just a hurdle that the guild needs to overcome.