Being female in public is a crime

[Wol]

Techncially a victim should never be blamed for a crime. hopefully we can all agree on that.

Annoyingly, *in context* it's not quite that black and white as that. The victim sometimes has an option before a crime to try and lower the risk of it happening in the first place.

e.g. when you leave your house, do you lock the door to prevent it from being burgled? Do you turn off the gas on your cooker before leaving too to prevent it burning down?

People do need to take responsibility for their actions, and unfortunately, this still applies to both parties. It's not blaming the victim for the fact that the crime happened, but the victim needs to take some responsibility about their wellbeing somewhere surely? Hopefully we can all agree that people need to take responsibility for their actions?

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

I try to avoid discussions regarding rape because when i was at college, studying a law taster course, i er dont get it. So i avoid it where i can.

In light of the anger floating around this thread, i thought i might try to clarify what i said above, i do not deny the distress (and immorality) caused by rape, though i do have trouble understanding how something which is, most consistantly accross all media, portrayed in the media as what humans want the most can be unwanted. The existance of prostitution turning sex into nothing does not help lol.

Please do not give me flak over this, it is geniune inablity to understand and i welcome constructive communications.

However i do not agree with the English law that a woman cannot commit rape.

And this is why i try to avoid talking about it, and why i shouldnt have posted the above.

 

[Xylak]

I think you are out of line, this is a debate post. You don't have to agree with others and you're welcome to disagree. But, once you personalise threats against other members of this community you are no longer welcome.

Moderate yourself or you will be moderated. I'd also suggest you edit your post as its unacceptable in its current form.

Threatening to leave the community is a no brainier, you're welcome to come and go as long as you respect the rules so its your call as to whether you are able to do that or not.

Please edit your post otherwise we'll have to moderate it for you.

Regards

Haven.

I appreciate and understand your comments regarding a such a personal (verbal) attack on another member of the THN community both as a member of the community and as a moderator.

However, I feel so strongly on this topic, and on Gombol's comment as quoted, that I am struggling to bring myself to moderate it.

I am usually fully capable and able to enter into a debate (even a very heated one) on many varied topics in an intelligent and informed manner and do not normally resort to such "flaming" language such as I used as it tends to detract from the subject matter at hand and is, ultimately, self-defeating. In fact I can't think of any other post I have written anywhere that contains such vitriol - especially one aimed at a specific individual.

Under most any other circumstance I would not use such inflammatory language nor attack an individual in such a base manner. There are a very few topics that raise such anger and contempt in me - rape, racism and xenophobia are the main ones. I would not, for example, use such language in a discussion about religion or politics - both divisive and contentious subjects.

/Even after some time preparing this post, I am struggling to justify (to myself) toning the post down BUT in the interest of harmony and for fear of setting an unpleasant precedent I shall do. You may want to edit Dragon's quote of my post accordingly.
//Finally, just because someone is a member of a "community" it doesn't mean we ALL have to be nice to them if they have overtly offensive views. (In my opinion -which you are welcome to argue with )

 

[Silk]

Annoyingly, *in context* it's not quite that black and white as that. The victim sometimes has an option before a crime to try and lower the risk of it happening in the first place.

e.g. when you leave your house, do you lock the door to prevent it from being burgled? Do you turn off the gas on your cooker before leaving too to prevent it burning down?

People do need to take responsibility for their actions, and unfortunately, this still applies to both parties. It's not blaming the victim for the fact that the crime happened, but the victim needs to take some responsibility about their wellbeing somewhere surely? Hopefully we can all agree that people need to take responsibility for their actions?

I should remind you that "fault" means you are in some way responsible for an outcome.

If you get burgled with your door unlocked it's not your fault.
If you get burgled with it locked, it's not your fault either, but thankfully your insurance should cover it.

In both cases, the burglar is repsonsible for the crime. His actions alone led to you being robbed. Riddle me this.. if you lock your door but that burglar *really* wants your stuff because you are rich, so he then mugs you, beats you within an inch of your life, takes your keys and robs you.. is that your fault?

If you unintentionally wear the wrong colour football shirt at the wrong time in the wrong place and get stabbed by a hooligan - is that your fault?

If you dress to impress and want to get laid tonight, but end up being stalked by a sexual predator who holds you at knifepoint and violently rapes you, is that your fault?

If you don't carry cash to avoid being mugged but then get mugged anyway, and then he stabs you because having no cash pissed him off, is that your fault?

No matter what measures you do or do not take to try and reduce risk of bad things happening.. when you are assaulted, or burgled, by another human being, it is THEIR FAULT.

However the gas cooker one was the odd one out.. If your house burns down because you left the cooker on, it's your fault. The machine didn't decide it was going to burn your building down. You neglected to turn it off. Nobody could have changed that outcome apart from you.

 

[Dragon]

Techncially a victim should never be blamed for a crime. hopefully we can all agree on that.

If we make an exception with suicide here I'd totally agree on that!

But I'm interested now is rape such a big deal in the UK?

To clarify: I want to know wether the crime of raping happens a lot. That the crime itself is horrible and should be prevented at almost any cost is, IMO, a natural duty (if you can say so?).

Over here in Germany it happens sometimes but I can't remember having seen any posters like the one in the OP or anything but a random news broadcast every 2 - 6 months. We prefer to warn people about the dangers of alcohol than getting in a situation that could end up in rape.

 

[Wol]

If you get burgled with your door unlocked it's not your fault.
If you get burgled with it locked, it's not your fault either, but thankfully your insurance should cover it.

If you unintentionally wear the wrong colour football shirt at the wrong time in the wrong place and get stabbed by a hooligan - is that your fault?

Thats exactly what I was trying to say, but with those examples above, there are two different parts to it. What I was saying is that the fault is in putting yourself into the situation in the first place, not the fact that the thing happened. We're talking about *two* different events here.

e.g.

It's your fault that you left your front door open which invites burglars in
Its the burglars fault that they robbed you.

It's your fault if you wear the wrong football top which is likely to provoke anger in what is known to be a dangerous environment.
It's the hooligans fault that they stabbed you

It's your fault if you put yourself into a situation where you have a larger chance of being raped
It's the rapists fault that they raped you.

Does that make sense? Not sure if I'm quite explaining it right.

 

[Haven]

‘you’re putting yourself in danger’ –this blames women for rape.

I disagree with the initial premise (in bold), looking out for yourself and being aware of danger do not tie in with implications of blame. I'd argue this is about awareness and blame doesn't come into it.

Unfortunately not everyone is socially/criminally responsible so in an imperfect society awareness is a key factor in mitigating crimes and protecting each other and yourself.

The poster is dramatic to make its point and grab our attention in an increasingly crowded space where we're constantly getting better at tuning out the things around us.

Only got time to respond to the one snippet but hey at least I got "social responsibility" in there

 

[Panda with issues...]

I should remind you that "fault" means you are in some way responsible for an outcome.

If you get burgled with your door unlocked it's not your fault.
If you get burgled with it locked, it's not your fault either, but thankfully your insurance should cover it.

In both cases, the burglar is repsonsible for the crime. His actions alone led to you being robbed. Riddle me this.. if you lock your door but that burglar *really* wants your stuff because you are rich, so he then mugs you, beats you within an inch of your life, takes your keys and robs you.. is that your fault?

If you unintentionally wear the wrong colour football shirt at the wrong time in the wrong place and get stabbed by a hooligan - is that your fault?

If you dress to impress and want to get laid tonight, but end up being stalked by a sexual predator who holds you at knifepoint and violently rapes you, is that your fault?

If you don't carry cash to avoid being mugged but then get mugged anyway, and then he stabs you because having no cash pissed him off, is that your fault?

No matter what measures you do or do not take to try and reduce risk of bad things happening.. when you are assaulted, or burgled, by another human being, it is THEIR FAULT.

However the gas cooker one was the odd one out.. If your house burns down because you left the cooker on, it's your fault. The machine didn't decide it was going to burn your building down. You neglected to turn it off. Nobody could have changed that outcome apart from you.

I don't agree with this completely. If I drunkenly yelled vile slurs and abuse at someone, and ended up getting punched, instead of keeping my big mouth shut and not offending anyone, I would argue that that could be considered MY FAULT. I think there is a subtle difference between 'spirit of the law' and 'letter of the law' here.

I would also argue, that while a woman SHOULD BE free to wear whatever clothing she wants to, anyone who sees her has the right to privately think what they want about her, and formulate their own opinion. It is their mind, and their opinion. I also think that people are fairly naive if they think that this doesn't happen in a country based upon a history of prudishness and Christian morals.

Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are paramount.

Voltaire: 'I may not agree with what you say, but I will to defend to the death your right to say it.'

 

[Panda with issues...]

If we make an exception with suicide here I'd totally agree on that!

Is suicide considered a crime?

 

[Tempscire]

Is suicide considered a crime?

It used to be. Not since the Suicide Act of 1961 though.

 

[Dragon]

Is suicide considered a crime?

In Germany the act of comitting suicide is a crime. The suicide itself, if it succeded isn't though. (Yeah the law can be quite funny sometimes).

 

[Wol]

I'd be worried if they started arresting dead people .....

How about driving drunk? Is it only a crime if you crash into something. If you succeed in getting home without crashing, is it not a crime then ;-)


*** the above comment is meant to be funny, if you reply to it seriously, I might smack you in the face ***

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

I would guess its a left over from suicide is a sin.

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

Wether agreeing or not with any of your points what you just did is terribly wrong. As much as you may not agree with a persons point of view in this discussion everybody is free to post his opinion on this forum without being assaulted verbally and formost physically (and you did just that by threatening him imo). I won't post my opinion on this topic in this thread as I don't live in your country and can't say how often rape and other equivalent crimes happen in the UK, but I don't want any threats of violence on this forum, just because someone does and may be of another opinion than you are.

Rhetorical query; are all muslims evil for what they think about women(?). Can you be held accountable for posting (in this instance i unfortunatly mean exactly posting, not saying aloud) what you think? I dont think that someone should be held accountable for what they think, or stating what they think. However if they do state or hold an offensive view, they should be informed in an orderly manner, without resulting to abuse, or in innocent cases, reporting to authorities.

 

[Dragon]

Rhetorical query; are all muslims evil for what they think about women(?). Can you be held accountable for posting (in this instance i unfortunatly mean exactly posting, not saying aloud) what you think? I dont think that someone should be held accountable for what they think, or stating what they think. However if they do state or hold an offensive view, they should be informed in an orderly manner, without resulting to abuse, or in innocent cases, reporting to authorities.

I dare you, read my post again carefully and say that again

On a more serious note: That is just what I said: you shouldn't threaten someone simply for him having a different opinion on something.

 

[Peepee]

*** the above comment is meant to be funny, if you reply to it seriously, I might smack you in the face ***

some of us might like that Wol ;D

 

[Huung]

some of us might like that Wol ;D

But only if you choose it and consent to it first. Just because a face looks smackable doesn't mean you just get to smack them in the face

 

[Wol]

But only if you choose it and consent to it first. Just because a face looks smackable doesn't mean you just get to smack them in the face

So if someone provokes me and I slap them in the face, who's fault is it ;-)

Maybe I should make a poster campaign showing someone with a slapped face and the comment "Dont provoke wol. You're putting yourself in danger"?

No?

 

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

Why was the thread titled "Being female in public is a crime", when "Being a victim public is a crime" could have been more correct? I ask only because this discussion has gone mostly straight to rape and that to be raped you must be a woman, where for the most part, its more along the lines of rapists are bad but their victims DO NOT have to be women.

I have gotten the feeling that many people here are psychologically programmed to expect rape victims to be female, perhaps because anatomically its probably easier (To be a victim), but still this doesnt seem fair.

I think the thread title, quoted from the italic'd article or not is too biased towards female discussion, i dont personally fear rape* when i walk around in the dark, but neither should any woman.

*Of course, i dont live in a city.

 

[Wol]

I saw this along with the thread title on facebook

my message is apparently too short.