Being a great big leeching git, essentially.

Huung

Well-Known Member
The problem with giving them the ability to MT and to tank AoE is that the other two tanks then lose their niches. You cant have one tank class doing it all or it destroys the balance :p

It would be like saying a warrior only gets to MT, so give them an AoE tanking ability, which would be horrific. The diversity is a good thing IMHO.
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
When can it be a one-button class? Even with Holy, you've got more than one button going on, even if one of them is spammed far more than the rest. And tbh, if Paladins are getting to MT stuff, it's because their guilds aren't letting them. Tuldur can easily tank anything we've done so far, I'd even go far as to say he could tank most anything in BT/MH as well. All tanks have the same boss-tanking capability, imo, and I've yet to be proven wrong.

Also, how did we get to this discussion from the starting point of Symph wanting to tag along with us...?
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Also, how did we get to this discussion from the starting point of Symph wanting to tag along with us...?

I have no idea, but this thread is just as interesting now :p

After trying and failing to think of reasons why a paladin couldnt main tank anything, I did a Google search - and I love the result. ;)
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
You mean the main evidence being "Maiden, lolz!", which I, Tuldur, and Nactall have all successfully tanked? :P
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
Partly that, and partly Google's attempt to correct the question:

"Why cant paladins main tank?"

to:

"Why can paladins main tank?"

Google knows best ;)
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
*munches popcorn and watches the hilarity unfold as this thread spirals away from anything resembling a starting point*
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
It's my rather blunt and somet askew 1st post that led to this interesting post, but yea, I have to say that sure, a pala could probably main tank most of these things, but the fact is that their single target TPS isn't as good as a warriors, in the same way that a mages single target DPS isn't as good as a shadow destro locks for example, so this restriction on top end TPS can lead to DPS having to put a cap on their DPS, so as they don't overaggro, leading to it taking longer for the raid to kill the boss, and, where there are enrage timers, this can prove a problem. And I am 100% Sure I know of at least one boss fight in BT/MH a pala couldn't tank: Kaz'rogal. Under No circumstances could a prot pala tank this, and If you prove otherwise, I'll eat my shoe. To me, it's common knowledge that Warriors are better Boss Main tanks, since Druids cannot be made uncrushable and Palas suffer from lower TPS, but you say that it's because their guild "wouldn't let them." The best prot pala on my server is in my guild, and I assure you, he would never even ask for us to let him MT a boss, as he knows a warrior is better equiped for doing so. And on the subject of one button class, Holy Pala= Flash Of Light anyone? Ret Pala is simply crusader, judge, Command and then keep command up whilst using crusader strike whenever it's available and very little else, on the subject of Prot Palas, I'm not sure, but i'm sure it's nowhere near as complicated as some other classes for example, On my Shadowpriest I have to juggle a huge amount of spells.

1.Keep Mind blast and Shadow word: death on cd.
2.Keep Shadow word pain and Vampiric Touch continuously on the target.
3.Keep Vampiric Embrace up constantly should the encounter require it.
4. Use Fade should I need to reduce my aggro.
5. Use Power Word Shield on the tank should I feel it appropriate.
6. Use Mind Flay whenever I have time.
7. Keep Trinkets constantly on Cooldown.
8. Manage my Mana at all times, and judge should I be using Mana Pots or Destruction Pots for the specific encounter.

This is what I must do In order to achieve my maximum potential, I'm a clicker and my I have about 50 CPS (Clicks per second) And whats more, I must be constantly adapting, No day is ever the same, this is what makes playing a shadow priest for me, more challenging and exciting.
In All honesty, I think all one button specs should burn in hell :P.

On your word of All tanks have the same boss tanking capability, this is clearly incorrect. A druid is no better at tanking a boss that can do crushing blows than a shaman with a shield equipped, a pala cannot tank extended boss fights cuz IMO, eventually they will run out of mana, leading to possible overaggro from others whilst they try to regen mana through the use of Seal of Wisdom, and Warriors are fairly useless at tanking AoE orientated fights, for example, hatcha' man in ZA. To say that all tanks have the same tanking ability is like saying all healers have the same healing ability, which quite frankly is prepostorous and totally incorrect :/ Please don't take this as a personal assault on you wind mate, it isn't. I'm just trying to show how different tanking classes are, they all suffer from certain pitfalls, and they all have certain niches to fill in order to make up for these pitfalls. Thanks, (this became a really long post :D) Decky a.k.a Primalhunter (or sometimes even Primalhuntard xD)
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
Oh -honestly-. I've got a raidgeared Shadowpriest aswell, and while I admit its a very active and challenging rotation its still exactly that- a rotation. Just because you're pushing different buttons every GCD doesn't make it any different to another class pushing a smaller range of buttons every gcd.

Retribution? Crusader strike, seal, judge, consecrate, exorcism if applicable, when to bubble, when to use wings to maximise damage output. Also thats not taking Seal Twisting into account, which is a whole basket of complicated horribleness.
Holy? The problem with holy healing is while it sounds repetative, you have to think about exactly who you're healing and in what order. You also have cooldowns to juggle, namely Divine Favor and Divine Illumination, and if you waste them you can end up completely fucked at a bad moment.

Its one thing to be a one button spec, but if you stick to a one button philosophy you're going to rot in the hell specially reserved for mediocre players. Show me a holydin who -only- spams flash of light and I'll show you someone who's a wasted raid spot. Show me one who downranks holy light to keep lights grace up, can prioritise heal targets intelligently and knows exactly when Holy Shock is appropriate, and I'll show you a decent healer.
Knowing what your spec -can- do if you actually bother your arse is what makes specs people laugh off shine.

Fury warriors, affliction locks and shadowpriests have arguably the widest range of attacks to rotate through when dpsing in raids, but it doesn't automatically make them "better" than a one button spec. For goodness sake, I play an Elemental Shaman, one of the worst cases of one button fever in the game, but there are still good elementals and bad elementals.
You don't need 15 different viable attacks to be "skilled"

Also get some ketchup for that shoe you said you'd eat.
http://www.phoenixrisingguild.net/movies/kazrogal.wmv Mage PoV, Pally tank. 15 mb download, checked for viruses and found clean.
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
Oh.....and comparing a druids tanking on a crushing boss to a shaman with a shield is just....just no.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
you've misunderstood, I'm not saying that people who play one button classes are any less skilled than people who manage a diverse range of abilities, not in any way at all. And the point I made about a druid making as good a tank on a crushing blow boss as a shaman is for the fact that a druid under these conditions would need to be healed to full health instantly and kept at it all the time in order to ensure they wouldn't be killed by a 2nd crushing blow, and if a shammy were able to stack enough stam, then the same would apply to them too.
 

T-Bone

In Cryo Sleep
I would really like to see them be able to MT bosses and so they become a larger part of raids.

You should come to any of our raids then and watch me do it.

The fact is that their single target TPS isn't as good as a warriors

I challenge any warrior or even a druid to out do me on single target TPS.

this restriction on top end TPS can lead to DPS having to put a cap on their DPS, so as they don't overaggro, leading to it taking longer for the raid to kill the boss

Wow...there are just no words to describe how wrong that is and how wrong it is to hear it.

Sure I know of at least one boss fight in BT/MH a pala couldn't tank: Kaz'rogal. Under No circumstances could a prot pala tank this, and If you prove otherwise, I'll eat my shoe.

Were we progressed to that point I'm sure you'd have a mouth full of Nike.

To me, it's common knowledge that Warriors are better Boss Main tanks

You are mistaken.

The best prot pala on my server is in my guild, and I assure you, he would never even ask for us to let him MT a boss, as he knows a warrior is better equiped for doing so.

He must be rubbish then.

a pala cannot tank extended boss fights cuz IMO, eventually they will run out of mana, leading to possible overaggro

The day I run out of mana on a long boss fight is the day the sun wont rise.


I wish I could show you this first hand but sadly I can't. I don't even know why I care so much? Maybe it's because I've put up with the naysayers ever since I made my choice of Protection and maybe it's because I've been given the chance to prove them all wrong. I'm sure if you were to ask anyone who has raided with me at any point that they will inform you there is nothing I cannot tank, at least as good as a warrior.

-- T-Bone
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
Incidentally, video aside, I've downed Khaz'Rogal myself, and our tank was Lowlander, a prot paladin in éternity, of SSL. By all means armory away if you don't take my word for it, but it was one of my only times in Mt.H so I recall it somewhat vividly ^^
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
Just read the Kaz'rogal encounter notes, and I can see that it'd be easy enough for a prot pally to MT the encounter, so long as they use proper mana conservation. If they have mana oil on weapon, use SoW/JoW, and pot at appropriate times, there shouldn't even be the slightest issue, if the rest of the raid is doing their job. Especially since the MT is getting mana back from being healed through the boss's damage
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
It does sound good in theory, but Kaz can be a cock. With my ~9k mana pool on Huung, I was having to constantly drain mana pots on every CD, and actually stop DPS after about 20 seconds of fighting, just in order not to explode. Still, Im sure it would be doable, as has been proven.

A druid is no better at tanking a boss that can do crushing blows than a shaman with a shield equipped

Definitive proof skill > gear. I dont care if you're the "best player in the world ever with a cherry on top" that there is a totally retarded statement. I play both a shammy and a bear, fair enough my bear isnt 70, but at the moment, he has about 150% of the armour of my shammy (who does in fact have a shield, but a couple of cloth pieces due to being ele), and about 180% of his health.

In my pure stam gear on my shammy I can get to about 14k raid buffed, on a druid, this would be much higher, nearer the 20k mark. Couple this with the buffer armour on a bear usually being at least 30k even on a good T4 bear, and I dont even see how you can compare a shaman and a bear taking crushing blows. The whole point of the additional armour and stamina bears get is that they eat crushing blows, its not a flaw, its how they deal with it.
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
I'm going to say this as gently as I can; decky, you seem to have shadowpriest down pat, and props to you for that, but you appear to be very ignorant of the mechanics for the other classes, and you really shouldn't think that you know them and can speak on them just because you've got one character raiding Sunwell. You've already shown you know so little about tanking, I think you might need to read up before you comment more. No offence meant, but you really are getting things just a bit wrong.
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
Windeh, you're awake and you're only over in England, pop over here and bring me breakfast pleeeease! I'll make you a quality cuppa!
 
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