Being a great big leeching git, essentially.

Chumpo

In Cryo Sleep
then had a glance over at omen, discovering I was doing 1300 TPS without VE in my rotation.

Your a shadow priest. Your supposed to do sick threat without salv. No tank will be able to keep you from pulling if your doing any dmg at all without salv.

Also i never use VE. Its unneccessary threat for a job that our healers do with ease anyway. I love them.
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
We have more time for raid awareness. I lead The Haven raids...

Agree on that, Ros/Duren led the raids when he was around, and in pally tank form. I would say a pally tank is an ideal raid leader, partly for the reasons you've already pointed out, and partly because tanks are generally the first ones to know when something is going tits up :p
 

T-Bone

In Cryo Sleep
Agree on that, Ros/Duren led the raids when he was around, and in pally tank form. I would say a pally tank is an ideal raid leader, partly for the reasons you've already pointed out, and partly because tanks are generally the first ones to know when something is going tits up :p

I appreciate the sentiment but please don't ever compare me to him ever again.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
Sure, Shadow Priest can really pump out the threat, but a knowledgable shadow priest can do highly respectable dps, and with salv, there are pretty much no worries at all about overaggroing and, if so, all you need to do is wand for a bit. Btw, Chumpa, there are a few fights where VE is very useful, if not essential. A few I can think of off the top of my head would be Al'ar, Kael, Rage Winter, Lady, and pretty much all of SWP. During these fights, and many more, it's highly advisable to use VE as it lightens the load on healers, If you ever check out a SP on a wws report from SW, you'll see their actual HPS is higher than their DPS. Sure it's not essential to be used all the time, but it sure as hell lightens the load for healers, and less raid heals for them to do is a smaller chance for your tank to die etc. In my ex-guild, our raids were usually led by the tank, as they are generally good at filling you in on exactly what might happen etc.
 

Ki!ler-Mk1

Active Member
One of my mates showed me a report from when he went up against(and killed) brutalus, he is a ret pally and he was 5-6th on the top dmg dealt.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
hehe, yea Killer, it's embarrassing how poorly shadow priests scale in SW. I've seen reports of hybrids hitting 2100-2300 DPS, and then the poor shadow priest with pretty much as good gear as he can get trailing behind at 1800 DPS. Pretty Much the only thing that's keeping him in the raid is his huge mana return (450 MP5) and huge healing, sometimes around 1900-2000 TPS across the 5 targets.
 

Chumpo

In Cryo Sleep
There are (meant to be) no fights in the game where one class is vital.

Therefore a shadow priest is never vital. (But always useful)

Therfore VE is not vital.

I use it rarely. It must be down to our paladin tanks doing no aggro and everyone in the Haven not knowing thier jobs i guess, im not sure.

Good job we have people from other guilds to come and direct us! *Phew!*

Baldi.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
Lol, what is it with people here not being able to take advice from others? I'm only trying to help, I'm not trying to mislead you, so your being so obnoxious as to believe your above taking advice from others is insulting, truthfully.
 

Chumpo

In Cryo Sleep
I lol'd. This bloke is A) missing the point by a mile and B) Humourless to the highest degree.

I dare say there will be an insightful and groundbreaking response to this though. Lol.

Baldi.
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
I dare say there will be an insightful and groundbreaking response to this though. Lol.

Hang on a second...hang on....just one sec there....wait-a-minute...

YOU'RE A SHADOWPRIEST!?
Omg Baldi. You lied to me.
You told me you were a fury warrior, and that all that spellpower cloth was RP gear :<

I'll never trust another troll, hell, I might never love again.
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
B-but what about me? I thought you loved me?!

On a serious note; Decky, I know Baldi's tone doesn't come across easily in text, but he's not being obnoxious or anything. He's quite royally taking the piss; trust me, I know, I live in the same house as the man.

In fairness, though; Tuldur, Baldi, myself and others know our classes, and we know them well. We play them well, and we've had plenty of time and experience to improve on that further and prove that we can really do our jobs. So we are a little protectice of the way we do things, yes, but with good reason; initially your tone sounded very much the classic "I'm in a higher raid bracket than you, therefore I know better than you", but as I said, flat text can be a piss-poor medium for conveying tone. I seriously doubt you came in here feeling all superior and graciously willing to "hand down advice from above to the Haven masses" or anything, but it diiid sound a little like that at first. Especially since that tone from a person in the top-end raids usually doesn't know much about classes other than their own, and you were getting some stuff about non-priest classes wrong.

We're not outright refusing your advice because it's you, or because you're in higher raids, or because we believe you're trying to mislead us. We just know what works best for us, and some of what you said is based on your personal experiences, and conflicts with what our experiences have shown us. To be expected, we're in different circumstances. Advice is appreciated, but you didn't do yourself any favours with the initial "Prot palas are the rejects of the tanking world comment", since our best tank and main raid leader is one, and we're rather fond of our protadins.
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
Bah, Chumpo, I enjoy a good joke as much as the next guy, but from your tone (as I percieved it) you were seeming to be obnoxious to me, which, as wind has said, can be hard to interpret from merely reading a wall of text, and I'm sorry for accusing you of such things, but I was merely trying to help you, not in a way where I feel I know more than you, but as equals, trying to help each other play better. In reality, all I want to see is Shadow Priests Melt the faces of all humanity in our quest for world......of warcraft domination :D. Finally, I'd like to completely retract my statement on Prot Palas, I have since been convinced otherwise by you guys that prot palas can achieve just as much as any other tank. My initial post was pretty wild and not very well thought out in all honesty, :p, but it lead to an interesting and, dare I say, very informative debate, even if some people took my comments more seriously than others. Anyways, please, do more of this so I can come in and blindly accuse classes of being terrible so we can have more of the same, interesting debates. Cheers, Decky :D.
 

Huung

Well-Known Member
OMG I wunce herd dat shadoh preests r rubbish an dey cant play well lolol!!1!!one! :D

But in all seriousness, Im happy we're all friends again, as I dont think anyone in THN is ever really intentionally nasty to others. Tis a nice place to be :)
 

SwampFae

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's my rather blunt and somet askew 1st post that led to this interesting post, but yea, I have to say that sure, a pala could probably main tank most of these things, but the fact is that their single target TPS isn't as good as a warriors, in the same way that a mages single target DPS isn't as good as a shadow destro locks for example, so this restriction on top end TPS can lead to DPS having to put a cap on their DPS, so as they don't overaggro, leading to it taking longer for the raid to kill the boss, and, where there are enrage timers, this can prove a problem. And I am 100% Sure I know of at least one boss fight in BT/MH a pala couldn't tank: Kaz'rogal. Under No circumstances could a prot pala tank this, and If you prove otherwise, I'll eat my shoe. To me, it's common knowledge that Warriors are better Boss Main tanks, since Druids cannot be made uncrushable and Palas suffer from lower TPS, but you say that it's because their guild "wouldn't let them." The best prot pala on my server is in my guild, and I assure you, he would never even ask for us to let him MT a boss, as he knows a warrior is better equiped for doing so. And on the subject of one button class, Holy Pala= Flash Of Light anyone? Ret Pala is simply crusader, judge, Command and then keep command up whilst using crusader strike whenever it's available and very little else, on the subject of Prot Palas, I'm not sure, but i'm sure it's nowhere near as complicated as some other classes for example, On my Shadowpriest I have to juggle a huge amount of spells.

1.Keep Mind blast and Shadow word: death on cd.
2.Keep Shadow word pain and Vampiric Touch continuously on the target.
3.Keep Vampiric Embrace up constantly should the encounter require it.
4. Use Fade should I need to reduce my aggro.
5. Use Power Word Shield on the tank should I feel it appropriate.
6. Use Mind Flay whenever I have time.
7. Keep Trinkets constantly on Cooldown.
8. Manage my Mana at all times, and judge should I be using Mana Pots or Destruction Pots for the specific encounter.

This is what I must do In order to achieve my maximum potential, I'm a clicker and my I have about 50 CPS (Clicks per second) And whats more, I must be constantly adapting, No day is ever the same, this is what makes playing a shadow priest for me, more challenging and exciting.
In All honesty, I think all one button specs should burn in hell :P.

On your word of All tanks have the same boss tanking capability, this is clearly incorrect. A druid is no better at tanking a boss that can do crushing blows than a shaman with a shield equipped, a pala cannot tank extended boss fights cuz IMO, eventually they will run out of mana, leading to possible overaggro from others whilst they try to regen mana through the use of Seal of Wisdom, and Warriors are fairly useless at tanking AoE orientated fights, for example, hatcha' man in ZA. To say that all tanks have the same tanking ability is like saying all healers have the same healing ability, which quite frankly is prepostorous and totally incorrect :/ Please don't take this as a personal assault on you wind mate, it isn't. I'm just trying to show how different tanking classes are, they all suffer from certain pitfalls, and they all have certain niches to fill in order to make up for these pitfalls. Thanks, (this became a really long post :D) Decky a.k.a Primalhunter (or sometimes even Primalhuntard xD)

Right. No need to constantly click. Mind Flay is your friend.
Spriest=not meant to be crit'ers. We have Mind Flay for a reason and it is far more efficient.
They say we Spriests are "mana batteries". I do not like the term. But it does contain a certain truth as Shadow Priest class/spec in PvE is basically a support dps spec. Why? Because we give mana to the group.
Vampiric Embrace->Shadow Word: Pain->Inner Focus+Plague(when possible. These two should always be on the same cooldown counter)->Mind Blast->SW: Death(when possible. Don't over do it)->Mind Flay 'til it's time to refresh Pain and Emb. Channeling the Mind Flay is effective and gets the job done.
If you have the gear/gem/enchants and are skilled. Then your DPS will go sky high and your mana users will be happy. :cool:
</Shadow-Disc Face Melter of The Haven> :p


OMG I wunce herd dat shadoh preests r rubbish an dey cant play well lolol!!1!!one! :D

But in all seriousness, Im happy we're all friends again, as I dont think anyone in THN is ever really intentionally nasty to others. Tis a nice place to be :)

Aye. THN is great :)

Hang on a second...hang on....just one sec there....wait-a-minute...

YOU'RE A SHADOWPRIEST!?
Omg Baldi. You lied to me.
You told me you were a fury warrior, and that all that spellpower cloth was RP gear :<

I'll never trust another troll, hell, I might never love again.

Beware of Baldi. The shadowy milk-man! :D


As for our dear Prot Paladins. Heck yes!*giggles*
Gief moah elf-in-a-tin can! They make good tanks AND great snacks! :p
 

decky101

In Cryo Sleep
Hey mate, Unluckily for me, I don't get devouring plague as I'm nelf, so my substitute for this is starshards, though what you said about linking it with devouring plague is correct (as it has a sky high mana cost) I tend to link inner focus to mind blast as this is the highest damage combo for the spell. Also, your comment on crit is in fact, very true, shadow priests scale terribly with crit (which is why we have such problems at higher gear levels as they tend to be itemized more towards crit and other high budget stats rather than just spell damage which we tend to scale best with. On a side note: This is why shadow priests got such a high amount of nerfs at the start of BC FSW FTL :p)

But this is mostly set to change in Wotlk. A few changes which are set to make crit a lot more valuable: 1. Mind Flay is having it's base spell coeff increased by 30%.
2. All of our crittable spells are being allowed to crit at 200% (rather than the current 150%)

Sure, it's still not going to be as valuable to us as pure spellpower since our dots can't crit and aren't affect by haste, but this will do a huge amount to increase the value of crit for shadowpriests. Currently, people have recorded 8-9k mind blasts and once we hit top gear levels, 10-11k isn't out of the question (Hello 2500-2750 heals with VE :D)

And on another side note: Spamming SWD for the win ^^. Loving killing myself with 18k crits on certain bosses, or killing myself by forgetting I'm enfeebled on Prince with swd. :D

Cheers, Decky.
 

Baeleth

In Cryo Sleep
Also: Starshards is gone in a week or two.
Desperate prayer is 11 pt holy, holy nova is trainable. Devouring Plague is trainable, 30 sec cd, and Symbol of Hope is trainable.
-all- other priest racials are gone.
 

Windzarko

Well-Known Member
Aye, I died a little inside when I first heard about that. Rather than bothering to try balance things, they take the easy way out and just drop part of the uniqueness and fun of the priest class... *golfclap*
 

Zaggu

In Cryo Sleep
No worries about uniqueness. After pondering stats, I'll be better off stacking agility like a madman and thus using bits and pieces of my dps kit due to the removal of bonus armour almost completely.

Yes, I am a cow rogue who can tank, in essence. Talk about uniqueness. :p
 
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