Being a great big leeching git, essentially.

[Windzarko]

I has tea already, in a mug labelled "bibo ergo sum". I r content.

 

[decky101]

Ahh damnit, that sucked, I typed another big long winded comment and it logged me out for taking too long to do so. :/ Will type again once I get home later, and I'll say quickly now wind: I took none of what you said as personal, we're merely having a heated debate about aspects of the game, and so I don't believe your trying to attack me in any sense.

Btw, Baeleth, Irish Homies for Life!

Cheers, Decky

 

[decky101]

Ok, I got some time to do it now, but this time I'm gonna put it in as few words as I can rather than a big long winded speech: I apologize for sounding ignorant, pigheaded and full of my own importance. This is not what I'm like, I enjoy SSC and TK as much as if not more than BT/MH/SW raiding. I also apologize for seeming to be "acting the expert" I am by no means an expert (though I challenge anyone to beat me on shadowpriest trivia ) My statement on druids tanking crushing bosses was ungrounded and vastly exaggerated, but all I was trying to say was that a warrior/tankadin is better suited to tanking crushing bosses as druids could be unlucky enough to get a series of crushing blows which kills them. On the subject of Kazrogal, I'm sure it may be possible (yum yum, tasty leather) but I think it's incredibly difficult. On my shadowpriest, I have around 11.5k mana buffed, and this is literally gone in around 1 minute 30 seconds with me chugging mana pots and using every thing possible to conserve mana. So for a tankadin with much less mana than this, I assume it must be incredibly difficult. To T-bone, please make a video using fraps of you tanking a boss, I'd be really interested to watch it (this is not sarcasm btw, I'm genuinely interested) and please don't make such groundless and incorrect assumptions about my friend bregor (the pala tank from DW) He is extremely capable, and has never asked to MT a boss, but chooses to fulfill his niche in raiding aoe tanking, to great effect, to the point where raids are called if he doesn't turn up. Assuming what your saying is correct, and that tankadins are as good at MTing as warriors, yet are vastly superior at aoe tanking, why don't all tanks roll paladin? There must be some set backs of being a tankadin or every tank would be one.

EDIT. I'd also like to invite anyone with questions concerning shadowpriests, any qualms or interests you may have about the class to feel free to ask me (this is not me being pigheaded again, I'm only trying to use my experience and knowledge of the class to help others, as I don't play the game anymore, and also, this is not to say that I will have all the answers)

Cheers, Decky.

 

[Angelic]

Ad so called "one button" specs -> There is a vast difference between actual button mashing and playing the class as a whole. I don't know that much about other classes, really, but I can imagine that elemental shamans spam lightning bolt, possibly shock if needed. This is quite simple, really. However, they still have to think about proper positioning, plan the totems beforehand, and perhaps most importantly, have their talents and gear properly sorted. I, as a CoH holy priest, use a wide variety of "buttons" throughout the boss fight, I constantly have to think about what other healers are doing, what's their mana status, when can I dare having a little break to leave the FSR because the raid-damage won't kill everyone etc etc, but other than that there's not much I need to do - there are not many gear choices for holy priests around, neither do I need to think about buffs like paladins or shamans do etc. This being said, it should be obvious that the mere number of buttons is not in direct correlation to skill player has to exhibit in order to properly play his class and spec.

Yet, somehow, I can't bring myself to appreciate holy paladins as much as I should

Ad tanking -> There is not much for me to say here. Wherever I've been with Tuldur, he has proven to be a capable tank, both gear- and skill-wise. I can only comment from healer point of view, so here goes: were I to compare the paladin, warrior and druid tanks, I'd rank them in this exact order. I like healing prot paladins the best, then warriors, then druids. Consecration is one skill I love the best about paladins, as it stops adds running for us healers, which is a pure win. It's true, though, that warriors (I'm thinking Stormhaven) are somewhat more durable in terms of surviving without healing for short periods of time, so in non-add bossfight I might pick warrior to tank. I don't know, really. Usually as long as the player knows his stuff, has good enough gear and is not a bear, it's all right.

 

[Windzarko]

Assuming what your saying is correct, and that tankadins are as good at MTing as warriors, yet are vastly superior at aoe tanking, why don't all tanks roll paladin? There must be some set backs of being a tankadin or every tank would be one.

Ayup, the gearing can be a real bugger. Balancing mitigation, spelldamage for threat gen, and mana/mana regen, all in enough measure to do the job right, can be quite fiddly and usually leads to multiple sets of gear based on what we're doing; for example, I've got two sets which are uncrittable and uncrushable, but one of which has a few thousand more health, a few % more combined avoidance, and a lot more armour, and the other is just over the 490 defence and 102.4% avoidance and thus is just raid boss worthy, but has a lot more mana, spelldamage and a bit more MP5 than the other set; based on whether threat or survivability is more of an issue, I'll switch sets. Both took a fair while to gather the scattered parts for, fair bit of a pain in the arse compared to the slightly more straight-foward plate tanking gear for warriors.

Oh, and as I understand it, there's more prot pallies on our realm now, but this is a recent thing, there was a lot of unfounded prejudice until recently, which I imagine is the same on most, if not all realms.

 

[Huung]

has good enough gear and is not a bear

Advantage of bears is highest single target TPS, and a massive health buffer. If a bear gets hit, he ~55% will get hit due to only having dodge and miss and no other avoidance. Generally however the armour brings the total mitigation to over 75% at even lower gear levels. This means, along with the bigger health pool, that healers can be using slower, bigger heals, which helps on the mana front. At least thats the theory behind it

I can imagine that elemental shamans spam lightning bolt, possibly shock if needed

Only enh have a shock rotation in their DPS, eles literally spam a 3:1 rotation of Lightning Bolt x3, Chain Lightning. Repeat. If its on trash or there are CCed enemies about, you just take out CL and it really is a one button class. Its one of those classes where knowing exactly what gear to take makes all the difference, as you can hardly call that skill.
Which totems to put down comes naturally, and in a raid, I'd be stuck in a caster group, so the totem combo is always the same, there really isnt much choice. WF for warriors and combat rogues, Grace of Air (the agi one) for other rogues and druids. Shaman are secretly the REAL huntards, no skill required

a warrior/tankadin is better suited to tanking crushing bosses

All bosses crush
Once again, this is why we have ~30k+ armour and ~18k+ health! Armour is our mitigation. That and a good ~40% dodge minimum

 

[Windzarko]

All bosses crush

Elemental bosses don't crush; you can't block their attacks, and their attacks ignore amrour, so they made it so they can't crush, otherwise they'd be impossible to kill. Also, a few bosses randomly can't crush, like Halazzi in ZA, possibly because his frenzy along with crushing blows would be the bane of warriors and druids (paladins would be crush immune only as long as they had charges on Holy Shield).

 

[Huung]

a few bosses randomly can't crush, like Halazzi in ZA

I never knew that... Learn something new every day

Elemental bosses I'd forgotten about, good call.
All a bear has in that situation is his dodge (assuming its a melee ability that deals magical damage) or nothing at all, then again, I guess thats pretty much what other tanks have, as you cant parry or block spells

 

[Windzarko]

I never knew that... Learn something new every day

Elemental bosses I'd forgotten about, good call.
All a bear has in that situation is his dodge (assuming its a melee ability that deals magical damage) or nothing at all, then again, I guess thats pretty much what other tanks have, as you cant parry or block spells

Bears have an inherent advantage against non-crushing bosses most of the time; they can soak up the hits better since it comes down to total avoidance and healthpool. Generally paladins and warriors would normally e relying heavily on a meaty block stat, with the druids dodge being obscenely higher than the warrior/paladin's combined dodge-parry stats.

We need more bears!

 

[SgtFury]

You rang? Bears are good. As with all tanks each has their own role to play. But by the looks of things in WOTLK that is all going to change and it's not looking good for bears at mo. Hope that changes.

 

[Huung]

Im working on it... slowly

 

[T-Bone]

please don't make such groundless and incorrect assumptions about my friend bregor (the pala tank from DW) He is extremely capable, and has never asked to MT a boss, but chooses to fulfill his niche in raiding aoe tanking, to great effect, to the point where raids are called if he doesn't turn up.

Likewise I could say to everything you have said previous about me and paladin tanks in general so far which, frankly I find quite insulting.

Also, a tank NEVER main tanking a boss, regardless of class shows at the very least a lack of confidence.

To T-bone, please make a video using fraps of you tanking a boss, I'd be really interested to watch it (this is not sarcasm btw, I'm genuinely interested)

I'd direct you, at this time, to here. This a random video one of The Haven members made of us killing Lurker the first time we entered SSC. Guess who is tanking him.

Still, I know lurker may not satisfy you as it is only lurker but rest assured that I will get something bigger for you sometime soon.

-- T-Bone

 

[decky101]

T-bone, I've already apologized for what I said. You seem to think that I'm some pig headed person who because he has experienced further content than you feels he's better than you, which, could not be farther from the truth, and the fact that you think this is quite insulting. Nothing is wrong with Bregor, he does what he's needed to do, if we needed an MT for a boss, I'm sure he'd give it a try, and I'm fairly sure he'd succeed. Also, your comment on lurker not being big enough really irritates me, I said at the time when I said it, and will restate: I'm GENUINELY INTERESTED. I was not being sarcastic in anyway shape or form, and for you to reply with such dry sarcasm insults me. And please, don't take generalised comments to heart, there is a difference between me saying "I don't think Prot Palas are as good MT tanks" and "I don't think You are as good an MT tank as say a warrior. My generalised statement wasn't directed at you, and if you feel it was, your wrong.

 

[T-Bone]

T-bone, I've already apologized for what I said. You seem to think that I'm some pig headed person who because he has experienced further content than you feels he's better than you, which, could not be farther from the truth, and the fact that you think this is quite insulting.

I don't remember saying anything to that effect. I seem to remember trying to answer all your points of concern as I have answered those of all the people who believed paladins to be inferior tanks which, you have said several times in several ways.

Nothing is wrong with Bregor, he does what he's needed to do, if we needed an MT for a boss, I'm sure he'd give it a try, and I'm fairly sure he'd succeed.

Fair enough, I do not know this person but that's not what you seemed to be saying before.

Also, your comment on lurker not being big enough really irritates me, I said at the time when I said it, and will restate: I'm GENUINELY INTERESTED. I was not being sarcastic in anyway shape or form, and for you to reply with such dry sarcasm insults me.

It was not 'dry sarcasm'. The lurker below is considered a joke of a boss by many people due to his relatively easy difficulty. That was the reason I said it probably wouldn't be big enough for you as it would not allow me to effectively demonstrate what I was saying. Lets face it he is not hard to tank.

And please, don't take generalised comments to heart, there is a difference between me saying "I don't think Prot Palas are as good MT tanks" and "I don't think You are as good an MT tank as say a warrior.

The fact that I am a protection paladin means that by saying one you are saying the other. I am sorry but there is no two ways about that.

 

[Nactall]

I have just read the whole discussion and damm what a story it is and for my reaction to the statements Tuldur responded i have to agree completely with you.

Being a protection paladin is sometimes really hard because much people think they are not capable of tanking the big guys they are mostly considered to be just the aoe tank (for which is offcourse no skill needed??) and tank the little shit like Murlocs and fluffy kittys. And i think this is quite insulting because being a protection paladin (that only clicks one or a few buttons??) is quite hard tbh, but when you are a good prot pala and know what gear to pick trough al the warrior tanking gear and the plate gear that Blizzard calls protadin gear, it has good spelldmg good def rating but far not the good avoidance and stam as warrior tanking gear. You have to pick the exact right blance between them. When you have this balance you have an exelent tps on multiple targets and a single target and you have a avoidance that matches most warriors and druid tanks.

As a reaction 2 Decky, I do think that your guilds prot paladin lacks of convidence (when i was not allowed to main tank bosses in raids i would have at least let my guild try it out to show them what I am capable of) when we are raiding because when im raiding tempest keep or any other raid i do want to be the main tank tanking the boss and until now I have not found the boss that I can not tank with as much ease as a warrior or a bear. Even maiden, this is quite hard to tank is a paladin but i can build as much tps as any class on her, just know what to do and when to do it. And when the paladin in question is as good as you say, and i do think he is, please let the poor man main tank more big mean things because that is where tanks kick of at!!!

About the treat on a single target, i think me and Tuldur can generate a massive amount of treat, mostly i have about 20% ^ more treat then the nr1 dps and i bet that is the same for Tuldur. And this is not the lack of dps but more the good button rotation of the tanks! I have once held a competition with some top dps of the haven and gave them no salvation buff and then had to try to get the aggro of me from a mob before it died well they blew all cds and so did I (no taunt or blessing or protecting offc ) and they could not get the aggro of me. I know that this not prove anything but its just an example.

The other downside of having a protadin tank(1st was hard to gear up and get the essence of a protadin) is that he has less health then the two other tanking classes but i dont think that is much of a problem because both me and Tuldur have about 18.5k health raid buffed and this is by far enough to tank black temple and mount hyjal.

Thank God that The Haven does not think the way about prot paladins as most guilds do, thanks for the chances we protadins get ^^ hope we dont disapoint you with our skill and capabilitys.

At the end of the story >> I LOVE TO BE A PROTADIN IT IS REALLY CHALLENGING AND FUN!! <<

Cheers,

Nactall

Zomg i made a first serious reply!!

 

[Windzarko]

To reinforce the points about threat; I can dispel Salv on my Mage and still be fine for threat most of the time, or dispel Salv on my retridin and have to REALLY try hard to pull threat. That's the single-target threat of a protadin for ya.

 

[Huung]

Pffft, Elemental mastery, totems, BL, trinkets and a couple of Frost Shocks thrown in for good measure and we've got ourselves a challenge

 

[Angelic]

Oh noez I cah has pulled aggro off Nactall once!

 

[decky101]

1st of All, I'd like to say thank you to Nactall for your insightful response. I'd just like to give a quick example to you for aggro off of a pala tank though: One time I was on Hex in ZA and we had a pala tank MTing him, and at around 50% a healer forgot to heal me through the SB volley, but no worries I got BRed and Began to DPS again. At around 30%, I realized I hadn't been buffed with Salv, and then had a glance over at omen, discovering I was doing 1300 TPS without VE in my rotation. At this very same moment, I pulled aggro and died again, which I must say, kinda sucked . If I had included VE in my rotation, and if I was specced for Imp. VE, I have no doubt I could have managed 2000 TPS at some points :/ (Btw, When I say I was doing 1300 TPS, this was just after casting MB and SWD ie. Big aggro spike my sustained TPS was around 900.)
Btw mate, the pala tank in my guild by no means is lacking in confidence, it's just we usually have Warriors/Druids there for MTing, and he's usually there to AoE something or other. As I have previously mentioned, If he felt like it, he could Main Tank, but he chooses to do what he feels to be his job: AoE tanking, in the same way an engineer would be generally suited to fixing things compared to say, a sniper, who would be better suited to shooting long range targets. Sure, the engineer could be taught to snipe, and would eventually succeed, but then who would replace him?

Cheers, Decky.

 

[T-Bone]

1st of All, I'd like to say thank you to Nactall for your insightful response. I'd just like to give a quick example to you for aggro off of a pala tank though: One time I was on Hex in ZA and we had a pala tank MTing him, and at around 50% a healer forgot to heal me through the SB volley, but no worries I got BRed and Began to DPS again. At around 30%, I realized I hadn't been buffed with Salv, and then had a glance over at omen, discovering I was doing 1300 TPS without VE in my rotation. At this very same moment, I pulled aggro and died again, which I must say, kinda sucked . If I had included VE in my rotation, and if I was specced for Imp. VE, I have no doubt I could have managed 2000 TPS at some points :/ (Btw, When I say I was doing 1300 TPS, this was just after casting MB and SWD ie. Big aggro spike my sustained TPS was around 900.)

If you find yourself doing 2000 TPS then you really have to ask yourself why you haven't stopped to pause. The sad truth about shadow priests is that they do far more threat than they do damage and I'm sure even Haven will agree with me on that. It's a fact of the game that blizzard haven't fixed yet and to pull aggro off a tank and die is not the tanks fault, nor will it ever be.

I think what you are failing to realise here that it is the DPS's responsibility to not over aggro and with a spike threat of 2000 TPS, of course you are going to pull. When I am really, and I mean REALLY trying to pump threat I can only sustain around 1600 for about 20 seconds, and I'm pretty sure no druid or warrior could do that for as long.

Btw mate, the pala tank in my guild by no means is lacking in confidence, it's just we usually have Warriors/Druids there for MTing, and he's usually there to AoE something or other. As I have previously mentioned, If he felt like it, he could Main Tank, but he chooses to do what he feels to be his job: AoE tanking, in the same way an engineer would be generally suited to fixing things compared to say, a sniper, who would be better suited to shooting long range targets. Sure, the engineer could be taught to snipe, and would eventually succeed, but then who would replace him?

Cheers, Decky.

Oh? I'm pretty sure all you said before was that he would never dream of main-tanking. A bit of a difference there wouldn't you say...maybe it's just lost in translation.

By all means if he feels his job is to be an off-tank then fair play to him, I just wouldn't limit myself to only taking the roll. I quite often fulfill that roll and it is quite often a more challenging role that that of main-tanking a boss but the point, and general moral of the story, is I can and do main tank as can any paladin who puts the effort into gearing up properly and I'll thank you not to say otherwise.


Also, to address the points raised by Nactall I would say that it is far, far more difficult for a paladin to reach the stage where his gear is capable of main tanking high-end raid bosses, but once you do get there you are as good as any other. Myself, Nactall and Neromende are three of the best Paladin tanks around and could easily outank most warriors. I would not hesitate to say that any of us could tank any boss and that any of us could put out a sustained TPS of 700 without even trying.

A further point being about the lack of button clicking. We may not have to click as many buttons as a warrior, who should be doing something every global cooldown but that gives us another great advantage. We have more time for raid awareness. I lead The Haven raids, while tanking and that is no easy task I will tell you. It is easy to command a few people but controlling 24 others while tanking something like Hydross AND his adds is no easy feat and it's an advantage I'm glad we have.

-- Tuldur